Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[baldyman26]

Merseytravel chose the livery not Merseyrail or if the screens on the train are to be believed the people of the city region chose the livery, they were after all "designed by you"

 

[WAO]

This combination of yellow and black looks waspish to me. The asymmetry of the front windows adds to the stinging unpleasantness. A pity to spoil an otherwise careful design.

Rather wait for a 502!

WAO

 

[Bertie the bus]

But, image is all important, a lot of money and effort goes into design of everything these days. And I have to say I think they are hideous. Look like trams. Fine if travelling from Central to Aigburth, but would I want to travel on a Tram from Chester into Liverpool? Black fronts really are awful, and come with separate issues of dazzling oncoming drivers / pedestrians at foot crossings when the sun is in the right position the glare will cause problems (it does on crossrail 345s, which, have dazzled me causing me to see stars.). Yellow fronts provide a smart uniform appearance, I just don't get this black front love in myself, though I concede, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

There is image, as in what it looks like, and then their is image, as in what it represents. Very often on forums like this people can't get past the first, and in many ways neither has a large part of the privatised railway, but MerseyTravel / Steve Rotherham are quite sensibly concentrating on the latter. And the image they want to portray is of a modern, reliable, accessible transport system and , to be honest, I think they are closer to the mark than people who worry about whether it is a train or a tram or what colour the front should be.

 

[irish_rail]

There is image, as in what it looks like, and then their is image, as in what it represents. Very often on forums like this people can't get past the first, and in many ways neither has a large part of the privatised railway, but MerseyTravel / Steve Rotherham are quite sensibly concentrating on the latter. And the image they want to portray is of a modern, reliable, accessible transport system and , to be honest, I think they are closer to the mark than people who worry about whether it is a train or a tram or what colour the front should be.

OK, but in my eyes the glare off the black front in bright sunshine is far more important than what Steve Rotherham thinks. If people either get dazzled by them or, do not see them coming (there are a good number of foot crossings on the merseyrail network) , then all the aesthetic cr*p goes out the window. Black really isn't a colour id choose for a heavy bit of machinery travelling at speed that will come into contact with the public ( at crossings). But hey they look good according to some so who cares if that catches out a few partially sighted pedestrians or dazzles a few train drivers..... be interesting to here David Powells take on the colour of the front.....

 

[Lloyds siding]

Looking at the gaps in next week's timetable, it would appear that there are two slots per hour to fit in driver training trips along the line.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I'm not sure if this is meant to be public knowledge but if it isn't perhaps people shouldn't talk so loudly and openly on public services, for anybody who is interested Ormskirk services are apparently scheduled to start going over to 777 operation in March.

 

[gka472l]

I'm not sure if this is meant to be public knowledge but if it isn't perhaps people shouldn't talk so loudly and openly on public services, for anybody who is interested Ormskirk services are apparently scheduled to start going over to 777 operation in March.

Had a trip on 777009 up to Kirkby today, seems New Brighton will be the first Wirral route for the 777's as told by the staff onboard. Was quite impressed with the 777 personally...

HTH

 

[Parjon]

But, image is all important, a lot of money and effort goes into design of everything these days. And I have to say I think they are hideous. Look like trams. Fine if travelling from Central to Aigburth, but would I want to travel on a Tram from Chester into Liverpool? Black fronts really are awful, and come with separate issues of dazzling oncoming drivers / pedestrians at foot crossings when the sun is in the right position the glare will cause problems (it does on crossrail 345s, which, have dazzled me causing me to see stars.). Yellow fronts provide a smart uniform appearance, I just don't get this black front love in myself, though I concede, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

Good job you wouldn't be traveling on a tram from Chester, or even lowly Aigburth, into Central then!

They look nothing like trams externally, and internally they are a world apart. Especially in ride quality.

 

[8A Rail]

Doug they are trains to carry passengers not models for photography.

Very true but strangely, I do travel on trains myself especially in Merseyside and not just photograph trains. I still stick to my thoughts regardless which I am entitled to make, they are still bland.

By"most people" don't you mean yourself and one other?

It's a metro train.

I think the livery could be beefed up, but otherwise I agree

I think you know there is more two of us! Yes it is a Metro train in your eyes but it is STILL an enhanced tram which ever way you look at it. Nothing will suggest otherwise.

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think the black front helps to lose the asymmetry of the two front windows.

As for the front not being yellow - I remember the days when everyone bemoaned the loss of descent liveries (two tone green, golden ochre, maroon) that were ruined by half yellow panels and then full yellow front and blue sides. Yellow is/was a passing phase and we have got away from yellow by having bright lights.

 

[Liverpool 507]

But, image is all important, a lot of money and effort goes into design of everything these days. And I have to say I think they are hideous. Look like trams. Fine if travelling from Central to Aigburth, but would I want to travel on a Tram from Chester into Liverpool? Black fronts really are awful, and come with separate issues of dazzling oncoming drivers / pedestrians at foot crossings when the sun is in the right position the glare will cause problems (it does on crossrail 345s, which, have dazzled me causing me to see stars.). Yellow fronts provide a smart uniform appearance, I just don't get this black front love in myself, though I concede, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

There is no escaping non-yellow ends I'm afraid. Just look at the new TPE fleet, new Tyne & Wear fleet, new Avanti 80Xs etc.

I suppose we all have our own preferences and opinions. I think they (and all the above) look smarter without yellow ends personally.

 

[Parjon]

Very true but strangely, I do travel on trains myself especially in Merseyside and not just photograph trains. I still stick to my thoughts regardless which I am entitled to make, they are still bland.



I think you know there is more two of us! Yes it is a Metro train in your eyes but it is STILL an enhanced tram which ever way you look at it. Nothing will suggest otherwise.

Yes sorry there are 3 of you on here, not two. It's a metro train in my eyes in the same way that the Sun is a star and the Earth is a planet in my eyes. It's reality.

Stadler seem to agree wth me https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/signalling/metro/

https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/detail-all/underground-trains/35/

It's not a tram, enhanced or otherwise, any more than any other train (such as the Greater Anglia trains).

Sorry you're not happy Liverpool has got these excellent trains. But we have got them regardless.

Very true but strangely, I do travel on trains myself especially in Merseyside

And resenting every minute by the sounds of it!

 

[TRAX]

I think you know there is more two of us! Yes it is a Metro train in your eyes but it is STILL an enhanced tram which ever way you look at it. Nothing will suggest otherwise.

Repeating an opinion doesn’t end up making it a fact.
This is not a tram, nor an enhanced tram, whatever that may be.
Put some glasses on, have a look at what a tram is as a vehicle as well as what it is as a transport mode and come back and see us then.
Trains don’t become trams just because of how you feel about them from a photograph or when you step inside.
Trains aren’t condemned to stay functional long boxes of loud, shaky metal, with yellowish lighting and dodgy suspension. Yes they are becoming brighter, lighter, more clinical and perhaps a bit too bland now, but this doesn’t make them trams.
Because trams too, used to be functional, long boxes of loud, shaky metal, with yellowish lighting and dodgy suspension.

 

[Vespa]

Arguing over "tram" " Metro" and colour schemes is like two bald men fighting over a comb

Personally I would just be glad we've got a new train/tramlite/tramtrain etc finally entering service to replace an ageing fleet that is not getting younger.

 

[the sniper]

I'm not really sure where people are getting this tram thing from, presumably people unfamiliar with most Stadler products? I can well understand people moaning in the South Wales Valley's when their trams turn up, but the 777s just appear to be modern metro stock.

 

[TRAX]

I'm not really sure where people are getting this tram thing from, presumably people unfamiliar with most Stadler products?

I’d say unfamiliar with metros and trams in general, really…

 

[MattRat]

I’d say unfamiliar with metros and trams in general, really…

Possible, although equally possible they just really like the 507s and 508s, and are trying to think of any excuse to keep them. And even though I also love those trains, their time is up, and Liverpool is moving into the 21st century, like it should, whether they like it or not.

 

[Ribbleman]

I’d say unfamiliar with metros and trams in general, really…

I’ve travelled on dozens of different tramways and on many urban rail systems throughout Europe. Whilst there are types of vehicles that are effectively a cross between trams and trains, the 777s do not fall into that category. They are examples of modern, electric, urban trains with features such as articulation and level boarding, qualities that are to be increasingly found on rail networks throughout the western world. Whilst many trams may share some characteristics with modern EMUs, they are built to lighter specifications, typically designed for a large proportion of standing passengers travelling relatively short distances at speeds of no more than 30-40 mph, with end loading requirements to suit.

 

[8A Rail]

Arguing over "tram" " Metro" and colour schemes is like two bald men fighting over a comb

Personally I would just be glad we've got a new train/tramlite/tramtrain etc finally entering service to replace an ageing fleet that is not getting younger.

Absolutely spot on! Some people just take things too seriously!

And resenting every minute by the sounds of it!

Not really I enjoy riding on trains but sadly we have a xxxx service locally which makes travelling on a train, a wee bit difficult sometimes and end up using the car instead sadly. However that subject has been covered elsewhere. We move on.

 

[Thirteen]

The Class 777s are clearly not trams, not sure why people are saying they are.

 

[Bantamzen]

Arguing over "tram" " Metro" and colour schemes is like two bald men fighting over a comb

Personally I would just be glad we've got a new train/tramlite/tramtrain etc finally entering service to replace an ageing fleet that is not getting younger.

Whenever a new train comes into service there are two things guaranteed on these forums. One is a lengthy discussion about the seats, and the other an argument about the colour / design of the trains.

 

[TRAX]

I’ve travelled on dozens of different tramways and on many urban rail systems throughout Europe. Whilst there are types of vehicles that are effectively a cross between trams and trains, the 777s do not fall into that category. They are examples of modern, electric, urban trains with features such as articulation and level boarding, qualities that are to be increasingly found on rail networks throughout the western world. Whilst many trams may share some characteristics with modern EMUs, they are built to lighter specifications, typically designed for a large proportion of standing passengers travelling relatively short distances at speeds of no more than 30-40 mph, with end loading requirements to suit.

That’s it, spot on

 

[Techniquest]

Whenever a new train comes into service there are two things guaranteed on these forums. One is a lengthy discussion about the seats, and the other an argument about the colour / design of the trains.

Absolutely! Of course, the inevitable discussion about how the old trains were better or how late/badly managed the introduction of the new order is, is never far behind!

So far, with the new trains of recent years, I've been impressed. I liked the 195s and 331s when they came in, the 717s have been great too (even if I don't use them too often, and find they're a bit lacking in soul compared to the 313s, they're still a great improvement), and I tried the 196s out this week. The 231 and 777s I will get to in due course, and if a 197 happens to be conveniently available on Wednesday then I'll have to have a quick spin on one.

I doubt I will be anything but impressed with the 777s, they look set to be fairly transformational on Merseyside!

 

[Skie]

They certainly ride better than the CAF units wobbling around the various bits of the network.

 

[317 forever]

Is that what the people of Liverpool really want their city to be known for for ever and a day - The Beatles and football? If they've got any sense they will try to link the launch of the new trains to a future of a modern thriving city, not a song released 60 years ago.

They could postpone the introduction say to the Ormskirk Line until May 13th, so that they can be associated with the Eurovision Song Contest.

 

[D365]

For trains that they've been using internally for about 5 years. What exactly where they doing (or not doing) that meant they didn't pick up on such problems earlier?

Not operating with discerning, fare-paying members of the public.

Trains are mechanical devices, failures are inevitable. Staff still need to build up a level of familiarity.

 

[DavidPowell]

Hello people. Lots of interesting stuff in here since Monday. I’ll have a go at responding to a few points raised:

1. Voice is Julie Berry who made a new set of recordings for us
2. Door auto close etc is to prevent air conditioning the atmosphere. This led to the door buttons which people get used to very quickly (they did on Metrolink) and do enable pre-arming
3. Driver training is now underway but does require paths which on a busy network like Merseyrail does inevitably have an impact on passenger services
4. There is exterior P.A. which can be used by either the driver or train manager
5. The seats are quite firm and there is a connection with fire standards for underground operation. Our average journey time is under twenty minutes and maximum is roughly an hour. Our passenger panel helped us choose what we went for: good lumbar support was a big consideration. The seats are wider than the 50Xs and leg room is much better. The spacers have gone to give a much wider and easier to use aisle. Emotive subject I know!
6. I have worked on numerous trams, metros and trains over the last 35 years. The 777 is a train which has been designed by a lot of engineers with experience in the other sectors. I was looking to combine the best features of all three. The level boarding comes from the tram sector but these certainly cannot run on street.
8. The roof fairings on the end cars were a late addition in the design process to meet the standards for behaviour in side winds. I will be looking to get rid of them in years to come so have kicked off a debate with RSSB which may take some time.
9. Livery etc. Well there’s no right or wrong here. Yellow, black and silver are Merseytravel’s corporate colours which Merseyrail also use. Again, this was the subject of a lot of discussion with our passenger panel and what we have represents an amalgam of forty people’s views. I think they got it right but it will never please everyone. If anyone wants to read the research, there are two reports on Transport Focus’s website.

I hope that’s helpful and that you all enjoy riding on the 777s. While there obviously isn’t universal acclaim in here, I’m pleased that there seem to be a majority of positive reactions.

 

[Grumpy Git]

David, thank you for taking the time and trouble to give this forum the 'inside information'. Your comments are both welcome and constructive.

I think the new trains are brilliant. The only one small are of concern for me (after witnessing it actually happening on Monday), is some less agile passengers got caught unawares by the ramp over the bogies! I'm not sure how this could be better mitigated though?

 

[Energy]

for me (after witnessing it actually happening on Monday), is some less agile passengers got caught unawares by the ramp over the bogies! I'm not sure how this could be better mitigated though?

They already have yellow stripes on them, aside from writing ramp I'm not to sure what they can do.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Perhaps having the ramps a different colour to the flat floor so it's more obvious?

They do have contrasting chevron markings (with anti-slip too if I'm not mistaken), but they are shallow ramps and the old chap who I saw almost going his length had obviously not seen them.