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Modern trains and modern lighting

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yorksrob

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Yes, and many choose to travel by train. I guarantee you that lighting levels do not factor into their decisions.

That's how they're used. It's no different to the way CIGs and VEPs were used on the same routes in the past.

I find it far more peculiar that you can't seem to let this issue go, despite this thread showing that your view is niche to say the least.

True, but unlike with a traditional high/low density layout, where you had an unavoidable trade-off between numbers of seats and doors (you can't have a table if there's already a door there) with the new Thameslink trains, features such as tables and USB charging wouldn't have detracted from their core route purpose.

Reading on here, I seem to be far from the only one who dislikes harsh lighting on long distances.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Reading on here, I seem to be far from the only one who dislikes harsh lighting on long distances.

I certainly do (though I don't consider 80x lighting that harsh provided the rest of the interior is warmly coloured, so not the bland grey of the GW units).

I'd say as built Mk3s were a lot worse. Too bright and too direct. Fluorescent lighting always needs to be indirect.
 

option

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Assuming normal sight. There's plenty of people who aren't that lucky. As humans live longer, failing eyesight is one of those bodily functions that is now more an issue where previously, many would become less active or even died by their mid-seventies through other ailments. How many adults over 60 would struggle to read the small print on paper rail tickets in the gentle lighting that give you personally no problems?

That would be a ticket design issue rather than a lighting issue.
 

Bikeman78

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Yes, and many choose to travel by train. I guarantee you that lighting levels do not factor into their decisions.
I'm sure it was you that said the opposite further up thread! In many ways, I actually agree with with you. Most people will get on a train and spend the journey staring at their smartphone. This applies whether the train was built last week or 40 years ago. Like the rest of the country, the Cardiff valley lines were seeing sustained growth until 2020. Even the Pacers weren't putting people off.
 

Mikey C

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Quite possibly, but they're designed for different jobs anyway.
Not really as the vast majority of their mileage will involve taking people from a major London station to places a significant distance outside London.

If you were speccing trains to run just from London Bridge to Brighton, Kings Cross to Peterborough or St Pancras to Bedford, they wouldn't look like 700s inside. The 700 interior would just be for the inner suburban stopping services
 

Bletchleyite

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Not really as the vast majority of their mileage will involve taking people from a major London station to places a significant distance outside London.

If you were speccing trains to run just from London Bridge to Brighton, Kings Cross to Peterborough or St Pancras to Bedford, they wouldn't look like 700s inside. The 700 interior would just be for the inner suburban stopping services

I don't really agree, because the likes of 350/2s are very similar, just they have a third seat on one side. The reason they are like that is to cope with very high passenger loads and very short central London station stops.
 

bramling

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I certainly do (though I don't consider 80x lighting that harsh provided the rest of the interior is warmly coloured, so not the bland grey of the GW units).

I'd say as built Mk3s were a lot worse. Too bright and too direct. Fluorescent lighting always needs to be indirect.

The latter point is interesting, as a few years back we went on the Dartmoor Railway's class 205 unit, which was basically in "as withdrawn from Connex" condition, complete with 1990s bare flourescent tubes. There was something very homely and retro about it, the tubes giving off a slightly pink tone.

Diffused lighting introduces its own problems, not least the tendency to pick up dust. Semi-diffused setups like the S stock seem to deal with this.
 

yorksrob

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I certainly do (though I don't consider 80x lighting that harsh provided the rest of the interior is warmly coloured, so not the bland grey of the GW units).

I'd say as built Mk3s were a lot worse. Too bright and too direct. Fluorescent lighting always needs to be indirect.

That's interesting about the mk3's.

I've not found the lighting in the EMR ones too bad over the last decade, so maybe they've updated them.

From another perspective, I wonder if there's something that could be done to the windows to reduce glare/reflection.
 

Bletchleyite

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Diffused lighting introduces its own problems, not least the tendency to pick up dust. Semi-diffused setups like the S stock seem to deal with this.

Yes, true, mucky diffusers look awful. Indirect works well for me, so the tube shines upwards onto the ceiling, with a natural diffusing effect. The "metal with holes" diffusion on Electrostars and S-stock also works reasonably well though isn't that electrically efficient because you need brighter/more tubes to make it acceptably bright.

That's interesting about the mk3's.

I've not found the lighting in the EMR ones too bad over the last decade, so maybe they've updated them.

Yes, I believe all currently-in-use Mk3s have had the ceiling lighting replaced. That every TOC to keep them running has done that probably shows what people thought of it! Particularly so EMT who otherwise just swapped the seat covers and carpets.

This picture (Wikimedia Commons) shows the inside of a Virgin (Pretendolino I think) Mk3 1st, showing the lighting arrangement they had as built:

Virgin_Trains_Mark_3_LHCS_WB64_Pretendolino_Set_FO_Interior.jpg


They had sort of diffusers (the type with "fins", for want of a better term) but were far too bright and from most seats you'd have a direct view of one. Not nice at all.

I think some 317s still have this arrangement, if they've not been scrapped yet - the ones with the metal vents instead of hopper windows.

Not having this type of lighting is one reason I think the 442 (yay, got them in!) is the ultimate Mk3.

I suppose you can see from this where FGW maybe went wrong - speccing the same lumen level (already too bright) but with daylight tubes without thinking properly about it...
 
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Pigeon

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In comparison to tungsten and even fluorescent, the cost of drivers and the control equipment is much higher if you want to start dimming them.

The cost may be, but the complexity isn't. The cost is only high because you are being ripped off.

With tungsten you can just use a big resistor if you fancy it, where as LEDs require a whole pile of control gear, especially if you want flicker-free behaviour.

LED lights for use on trains will practically certainly be using a switched-mode power supply, and that basically gives you dimming as a free built-in extra for nothing: all you have to do is use a variable resistor instead of a fixed one to set the regulation of the output current. You can bring the connections to it out on another pair of wires to put it next to the switch, which isn't much good for a domestic situation, but makes very little difference if you're doing a "specialised" installation from scratch as in building a train.

Dimming only gets "complicated" in the domestic situation where you're stuck with the existing 2 wires and so need to translate the modulation imposed on the supply waveform by a standard thyristor dimmer into a steady control signal to apply to the regulation, or some comparably simple alternative to achieve an equivalent result; this really is not a difficult problem, and the few extra components it requires are only a couple of pennies worth when you're buying many thousands of them at a time. But the public do not know this and so including that tuppenny handful of parts gives the manufacturer an excuse to gouge them for some totally disproportionate amount.

Either way it's actually easier than doing it with fluorescent tubes; a switched-mode driver for LEDs has only trivial differences in circuitry from one for a fluorescent tube, but it has fewer components subjected to high stress, and an LED is a much easier load to drive at varying levels than a discharge tube...

Eliminating flicker is really easy - all you need to do is use an adequately-sized reservoir capacitor. Too many manufacturers try and skin it on capacitance or even not use one at all. This is just plain inexcusable cheap-arsed gittery, and if it wasn't so prevalent nobody would be worrying that LED lights might flicker in the first place.

Alternatively, of course, it could be that they are as you say yellow LEDs with a near-UV phosphor, but the physics of that doesn't feel as if it makes as much sense to me ... and a quick google hasn't found me any explainers indicating that there's a yellow emitter and a blue phosphor ... but a lot suggesting blue LED with yellow phosphor as a standard construction ...

It is the standard construction. The other way round (yellow LED + blue phosphor) does not work. Phosphors transform more energetic (shorter wavelength) photons into less energetic (longer wavelength) photons with the difference going as heat, so they only work "blue to yellow". Producing more energetic photons from less energetic ones means you have to somehow combine the energy from two low-energy photons and re-emit it as one high-energy one, which is much more difficult, much more lossy, and tends to need the kind of light intensity you can only achieve with a laser; some green laser pointers generate green from infra-red by that method, but it's not useful for ordinary illumination lighting or any other everyday purpose.

(Neither LEDs nor phosphors can be made to change the wavelength (colour) they emit at, so LED lights that can change colour use the standard TV screen method: mixing red, green and blue in varying proportions. This is where it actually does make a difference to the control gear, since you basically need three separate ballasts, one for each colour.)

There's no reason why fixed-colour "white" LEDs shouldn't be made with a perfectly pleasant warm colour temperature, except that warmer colour temperatures are less efficient and so knock the lumens per watt figure down a bit. And, indeed, they are. You just have to be careful to check the labelling to make sure you haven't got hold of some horrible depressing cold bluey thing by mistake (and hope that the labelling is correct, which it isn't always).

Trouble is it's all too easy to imagine a depot making such a mistake and ending up with boxes and boxes of cold LEDs and thinking "sod it, we'll just use them anyway..."
 

gallafent

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They had sort of diffusers (the type with "fins", for want of a better term) but were far too bright and from most seats you'd have a direct view of one. Not nice at all.

I think some 317s still have this arrangement, if they've not been scrapped yet - the ones with the metal vents instead of hopper windows.
(Re mk3s as originally built).

I /think/ that earlier mk3s (in HSTs) didn't have these louvres or whatever they're called, but instead had a plastic diffuser filling the whole aperture below the tube. That was definitely a bit nicer than the fins where you can see the tube directly … and I think the same was (is?) true of the first type of 317, which resembled an ordinary mk3 carriage more than the later mk3 EMUs (window size/shape and lighting, maybe even seats?).

I couldn't find any photos showing this very clearly — there's this post https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gner-brown-and-grey-1st-interiors.135691/#post-2710376 but the lights are too saturated to be absolutely certain (though it looks as if there are no fins, just translucent plastic).

I also remember that the lights could be run in “dim” mode (originally with a switch that anybody could turn! … later changed to require a square key thing) which I think switched off 2 in every 3, leading to a very nice relaxed atmosphere, especially in 1st where the reading lamps provided more light if you needed it.

Having said that, and from the same thread, the brown interior in the first post with the big diffusers also looks quite decent. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gner-brown-and-grey-1st-interiors.135691/#post-2709938
 

Skie

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I think the expense of LED dimming and getting the overall lighting setup right is purely down to time. It takes time to test the various permutations and setups possible and adjust them to meet a customers requirements.

Even if you choose a fancy scheduler to dim at certain points of a journey and give the crew some controls too, they don’t add much to the cost, it’s just the cost to develop those features and get them right. Time is money.

Much cheaper, time wise, to just slap led strips behind a diffuser and call it a day. Airlines have obviously seen some of the benefits in spending that time getting it right, but its harder to justify on the railway.
 

gallafent

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rouble is it's all too easy to imagine a depot making such a mistake and ending up with boxes and boxes of cold LEDs and thinking "sod it, we'll just use them anyway..."
… or as in the case of GWR's standard class HST refresh, an entire fleet refurb being done with fluorescent tubes (or were those actually “LED strips”?) that were not only too high a colour temperature but also too bright! ;)
 

cnjb8

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Don’t come to the East Mids, EMR couldn’t work the lights on 170532, meaning we had to travel through Milford Tunnel in complete darkness!
 

mark-h

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LED lights for use on trains will practically certainly be using a switched-mode power supply, and that basically gives you dimming as a free built-in extra for nothing: all you have to do is use a variable resistor instead of a fixed one to set the regulation of the output current.
LED lights are dimmed by pulsing the LED on and off. Reducing the voltage by adding a resister will not provide reliable dimming. It would still be very easy for a modern train to have LED lighting that can be adjusted in colour temperature and brightness.

Ideally the colour temperature would be programmed based on the brightness outside cold (daylight) during the day and warmer (more yellow) at night.
 

Pigeon

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Er, you obviously don't understand what the comment you are replying to is actually about.

LEDs are current-driven devices. The voltage across an operating LED remains more or less the same (ideally, exactly the same) regardless of the current through it. They need to be powered from a constant-current supply, ie. one which maintains the output current at a set value regardless of the voltage developed across the load. Varying that set value alters the brightness of the LED.

Such a power supply operates by deriving a signal proportional to its output current, comparing it against some internal reference in a ratio determined by some resistor network, and adjusting its output accordingly. (There are innumerable ways to arrange the circuitry but this is what they boil down to in terms of operating principle.) If all the resistors in the network are of fixed value, then the brightness of the LED is fixed. If the appropriate one of those fixed resistors is replaced with a variable resistor, then the brightness of the LED can be varied.

A switched-mode power supply certainly (and oxymoronically) chops the current up into pulses internally, but it later filters the pulsations out again to provide a steady output. There is negligible pulsation in the current supplied to the LED.

Varying the perceived brightness of an LED by pulsing it rapidly on and off is a different kettle of fish; it is what you do if you are a lazy cheap-arsed git running the LED off a low-voltage battery supply and don't care about EMI or visual artefacts. It is appropriate for toys and (some) indicator lights and that's about it. Certainly not for illumination. (Although in practice, as with so many things, its use is not restricted only to appropriate applications. And whoever allowed it through approval for car rear lights needs a smack, because it results in saccades causing strings of phantom lights to flash into view, which is confusing and not conducive to road safety.)
 

gallafent

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And whoever allowed it through approval for car rear lights needs a smack, because it results in saccades causing strings of phantom lights to flash into view, which is confusing and not conducive to road safety.
Absolutely. This seems a lot less common than it was in the early days of LED brake / tail lights, thankfully … early Volkswagen / Audi implementation I remember being particularly bad.
 

Bikeman78

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I think some 317s still have this arrangement, if they've not been scrapped yet - the ones with the metal vents instead of hopper windows.
Yes they are still running. I went on one recently with numerous diffusers missing. It must have been to Hertford recently; there are dozens strewn on the track there.
 

Devonian

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I heartily apologise for not spotting this thread earlier: but I have spotted a few 'old chestnuts' in it. One of them is that bright lighting is down to an EU standard.

Yes and no: if I recall correctly there are indeed regulations in EN 13272 that require 150 lux in seating areas and 50 lux at aisle floor level. However, I seem to recall that there are provisions for lower lighting on long-distance trains (however they are defined) in the current regs: if reading lights are provided, then the general lighting can be lowered by 1/3 as long as the reading lights make up the difference; lighting may be reduced for "energy consumption or passenger comfort" or some such vague wording; and overnight trains are specifically allowed to dim their lighting right down to minimum 'emergency' levels, except in corridors and vestibules.

This suggests that the bright general lighting on recent intercity trains is partly down to the lack of reading lights even in first class - in contrast to the Voyagers/Pendolinos which have them throughout the train, which allows significantly dimmer general lighting. It makes me wonder why operators do not have dimmable lighting that meets 'comfort' or 'emergency' standards at night for the seated portion of sleepers, which seems to be permitted but not put into practice.

I note that things may be better in future: the HS2 train specification states "It shall be possible to vary the nominal illuminance level at Seating Positions between 100 lux and 250 lux ... as an Operator Setting" and calls for the full package of reading lights, adjustable colour temperature general lighting and RGBW ceiling lighting...
 

yorksrob

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I heartily apologise for not spotting this thread earlier: but I have spotted a few 'old chestnuts' in it. One of them is that bright lighting is down to an EU standard.

Yes and no: if I recall correctly there are indeed regulations in EN 13272 that require 150 lux in seating areas and 50 lux at aisle floor level. However, I seem to recall that there are provisions for lower lighting on long-distance trains (however they are defined) in the current regs: if reading lights are provided, then the general lighting can be lowered by 1/3 as long as the reading lights make up the difference; lighting may be reduced for "energy consumption or passenger comfort" or some such vague wording; and overnight trains are specifically allowed to dim their lighting right down to minimum 'emergency' levels, except in corridors and vestibules.

This suggests that the bright general lighting on recent intercity trains is partly down to the lack of reading lights even in first class - in contrast to the Voyagers/Pendolinos which have them throughout the train, which allows significantly dimmer general lighting. It makes me wonder why operators do not have dimmable lighting that meets 'comfort' or 'emergency' standards at night for the seated portion of sleepers, which seems to be permitted but not put into practice.

I note that things may be better in future: the HS2 train specification states "It shall be possible to vary the nominal illuminance level at Seating Positions between 100 lux and 250 lux ... as an Operator Setting" and calls for the full package of reading lights, adjustable colour temperature general lighting and RGBW ceiling lighting...

That's a very interesting and informative post.

It just begs the question as to why we have to wait until HS2 to get properly specced lighting on a new InterCity train.
 

43096

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I heartily apologise for not spotting this thread earlier: but I have spotted a few 'old chestnuts' in it. One of them is that bright lighting is down to an EU standard.

Yes and no: if I recall correctly there are indeed regulations in EN 13272 that require 150 lux in seating areas and 50 lux at aisle floor level. However, I seem to recall that there are provisions for lower lighting on long-distance trains (however they are defined) in the current regs: if reading lights are provided, then the general lighting can be lowered by 1/3 as long as the reading lights make up the difference; lighting may be reduced for "energy consumption or passenger comfort" or some such vague wording; and overnight trains are specifically allowed to dim their lighting right down to minimum 'emergency' levels, except in corridors and vestibules.

This suggests that the bright general lighting on recent intercity trains is partly down to the lack of reading lights even in first class - in contrast to the Voyagers/Pendolinos which have them throughout the train, which allows significantly dimmer general lighting. It makes me wonder why operators do not have dimmable lighting that meets 'comfort' or 'emergency' standards at night for the seated portion of sleepers, which seems to be permitted but not put into practice.

I note that things may be better in future: the HS2 train specification states "It shall be possible to vary the nominal illuminance level at Seating Positions between 100 lux and 250 lux ... as an Operator Setting" and calls for the full package of reading lights, adjustable colour temperature general lighting and RGBW ceiling lighting...
So that tells us that the bright lighting on overnight trains is down to the operator either not reading the spec properly or not wanting to. The blame can be firmly pinned on GWR and Caledonian Sleeper: it's another of those "blame European standards" situations when actually it's nothing of the sort.
 

satisnek

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I remembered this thread yesterday evening, when in a 220 doing a leisurely trundle through Alrewas, Lichfield and Sutton Coldfield (what fun!). I was surprised to see that the centre downlights were still halogen bulbs - yes, incandescent lighting is still hanging on in there! Three of them had failed. One of the tubes had also failed, while the rest appeared to be in every colour temperature available. To be fair, I imagine that the staff at Central Rivers have enough work on their hands cleaning the bogs than to worry about the lighting.
 

Bletchleyite

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… or as in the case of GWR's standard class HST refresh, an entire fleet refurb being done with fluorescent tubes (or were those actually “LED strips”?) that were not only too high a colour temperature but also too bright! ;)

They were fluorescents, and must be the worst train lighting since gas was abolished. Which is a shame as I quite liked the rest of the refurb, it was certainly the most comprehensive HST refurb until XC's.

Absolutely. This seems a lot less common than it was in the early days of LED brake / tail lights, thankfully … early Volkswagen / Audi implementation I remember being particularly bad.

I've not seen a bad one on a car for a while, and I am particularly sensitive to flicker so used to see them all the time. I wonder if there was a regulation change? Certainly I can see pulsing below about 60Hz very clearly. 100Hz and I can't at all.

I also remember that the lights could be run in “dim” mode (originally with a switch that anybody could turn! … later changed to require a square key thing) which I think switched off 2 in every 3, leading to a very nice relaxed atmosphere, especially in 1st where the reading lamps provided more light if you needed it.

I had a slightly naughty habit of switching them to dim myself. Some guards would switch them back but most wouldn't. 2/3 was about right.

In the late 90s/early 2000s the ageing WCML Mk3s had a habit of the lights tripping out at every neutral section - switching to dim seemed to make this less likely to happen, too, as a bonus.
 

43096

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They were fluorescents, and must be the worst train lighting since gas was abolished. Which is a shame as I quite liked the rest of the refurb, it was certainly the most comprehensive HST refurb until XC's.
As the UK's chief Grammer salesman, I wouldn't expect anything else!
In the late 90s/early 2000s the ageing WCML Mk3s had a habit of the lights tripping out at every neutral section - switching to dim seemed to make this less likely to happen, too, as a bonus.
That's a sign of battery issues - so basically maintenance (or lack of)/Virgin's scorched earth policy to make the new trains seem wonderful.
 

mark-h

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Varying the perceived brightness of an LED by pulsing it rapidly on and off is a different kettle of fish; it is what you do if you are a lazy cheap-arsed git running the LED off a low-voltage battery supply and don't care about EMI or visual artefacts. It is appropriate for toys and (some) indicator lights and that's about it. Certainly not for illumination. (Although in practice, as with so many things, its use is not restricted only to appropriate applications. And whoever allowed it through approval for car rear lights needs a smack, because it results in saccades causing strings of phantom lights to flash into view, which is confusing and not conducive to road safety.)
Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) LED dimming, which is what I was referring to, is used a lot more often than you think- not just in low-cost devices.

Having the LEDs either fully on or off, switching between these states many hundreds or thousands of times a second, has the advantage that the colour of the LED does not change as it is dimmed.

Theatre lighting, where the quality of light is important, uses PWM dimming (as a brief search of a manufacturers website shows). Some of these lights have selectable PWM frequencies to avoid issues when being videoed- if the pulsing was filtered out then there would be no need for the PWM frequency to be adjustable.
 

Bletchleyite

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Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) LED dimming, which is what I was referring to, is used a lot more often than you think- not just in low-cost devices.

Such as most mobile phones. I can barely look at some Samsungs as a result as they pulse too slowly. Oddly my cheapo Motorola pulses faster so doesn't cause an issue!

Having the LEDs either fully on or off, switching between these states many hundreds or thousands of times a second, has the advantage that the colour of the LED does not change as it is dimmed.

The colour of LEDs doesn't change when dimmed by any means. They don't work like incandescent bulbs.
 
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