More trains in Blackburn to Hellifield route

[Sox]

From Lancashire Telegraph:

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.u...more_trains_in_Blackburn_to_Hellifield_route/

Rail campaigners call for more trains in Blackburn to Hellifield route



RAIL campaigners want to open up East Lancashire to Yorkshire and Scotland by promoting extra trains along a rarely-used route.

Friends of the Blackburn to Hellifield Line (FOBHL) are making the call 50 years to the day that the last regular passenger service between the two locations ceased.

The final train between Blackburn and the North Yorkshire station departed in early September 1962, and now only a single train operates every Sunday.

Supporters of the Friends of Settle to Carlisle Line have also undertaken a major study this year, outlining the benefits of opening a through route between Manchester and Carlisle, via Darwen, Blackburn and Ribble Valley stations.

Peter Brass, of FOBHL and a Clitheroe newsagent, said that the link could be reinstated with minimal outlay for the rail industry.

“The only thing that you would need is a signal on the platform at Hellifield for when the trains arrive from Clitheroe,” he said.

Around half a dozen trains could be run each day, he believes, which if timed correctly could connect with onwards services to Carlisle.

Such a move echoes the efforts of the Skipton East Lancashire Rail Partnership, which aims to reconnect the abandoned line between Colne and North Yorkshire.

And if it is successful it would mirror the reinstatement of the Todmorden Curve, opening up extra services to West Yorkshire and Manchester for East Lancs passengers.

Paul Levet, of FOSCL, added: “Manchester, Bolton, Blackburn and Clitheroe only have connections to the Yorkshire Dales on Sundays during the summer season. A yearly round service would improve this situation.”

And because the track, used by the Sunday service, freight trains and charter operators, is still in place, FOSCL is arguing that it would not require any expensive overhauls.

Mr Levet added: “Clitheroe travellers to Scotland have to change at Blackburn and Preston when they could enjoy a more direct service via the scenic Settle and Carlisle line.

“And travel to Skipton and Leeds from Clitheroe could also be improved by connecting Clitheroe to Hellifield.”The Hellifield line, which also calls from Blackburn, at Ramsgreave and Wilpshire, Langho and Whalley, before Clitheroe, was originally part of the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway.

 

[IanD]

You put a signal at the end of the platform and the rolling stock just turns up.

Whilst I would like to see a more frequent service on this route I imagine it might be a bit more complicated than FOBHL seem to think.

 

[Tomnick]

“The only thing that you would need is a signal on the platform at Hellifield for when the trains arrive from Clitheroe,” he said.

Ah yes, if only things were that easy! Presumably he's talking about the arrangements for a train returning from Hellifield - there's already (obviously) a signalled move into the Down platform, but only a shunt move back from there. If you were going to have regular passenger movements starting back from the Down platform, you'd also need FPLs on the trailing end of the double junction and also the trailing crossover to return to the Up.

I don't know whether it's possible to shunt from the Down platform to the Up platform - I'd guess, from the signalling, that it is though. That looks like the more sensible option anyway, given that the unit's presumably going to have a bit of a layover if it's going to connect with trains both to and from Carlisle, so might need to shunt to one of the loops, or the Up Branch, to keep out of the way anyway.

 

[Sox]

If it was not for Castle cement I am not sure if this line would have survived Beeching.

However, now that we are in the 21st century, it does seem a shame that such an important asset is underused.

Useful to have Chatburn and Gisburn stations reopen as well.

 

[tbtc]

A much better idea than the SELRAP one

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

A much better idea than the SELRAP one

1. Yes it would make sense to use use that line from Manchester/Blackburn area beyond Clitheroe to Hellifield and beyond. I have done that line a few times of Steam Charter services.

2. What is SELRAP?

 

[AndyHudds]

Skipton-East Lancashire Rail Action Partnership-SELRAP

 

[John55]

If it was not for Castle cement I am not sure if this line would have survived Beeching.

However, now that we are in the 21st century, it does seem a shame that such an important asset is underused.

Useful to have Chatburn and Gisburn stations reopen as well.

The line closed to passengers just before the Beeching Report so he had no influence on this particular line.

 

[Pen Mill]

You put a signal at the end of the platform and the rolling stock just turns up.

Whilst I would like to see a more frequent service on this route I imagine it might be a bit more complicated than FOBHL seem to think.

Indeed , I don't know this line but it seems to me that the Network Rail meter only starts ticking over at £1 million

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Indeed , I don't know this line but it seems to me that the Network Rail meter only starts ticking over at £1 million

As with all these great little plans, it isn't just Network Rail costs. Let's say the relevant shopping list of infrastructure works are done, then what? As IanD pointed out, where is the unit to run the service? If you extend an existing service but want to maintain existing frequencies you may need an extra unit, plus staff for it, maintenance and stabling of, etc.

All that assumes of course, that confilcts and timing elswhere will allow you to do what you want, timetable-wise.

Then, when it is running, the service will have to attract enough patronage to pay for all this and the relevant track access charge. Anyone done any demand surveys?

 

[Wath Yard]

Then, when it is running, the service will have to attract enough patronage to pay for all this and the relevant track access charge. Anyone done any demand surveys?

But it makes travelling from Clitheroe - Scotland easier so who needs a survey!

If they get this then presumably they'll be asking for a direct Clitheroe - Newquay service to make going on their summer holiday easier.

 

[philjo]

I believe that a number of people living in the Hellifield/Settle areas commute daily by car to work in Greater Manchester area so a direct service from Manchester so Settle is likley to be used. Travelling by road to Manchester mainly uses the M65 so is quicker than the shorter distance using the A65 to Leeds.
Similarly, a direct service allows the folks from Manchester to visit the Dales.

 

[Toots]

There are no serious proposals to run a service from Blackburn to Hellifield and it won't happen,there simply isn't the demand or the population centres to facilitate such a scheme and that's even if the intermediate stations were reopened.

 

[bluenoxid]

I believe that a number of people living in the Hellifield/Settle areas commute daily by car to work in Greater Manchester area so a direct service from Manchester so Settle is likley to be used. Travelling by road to Manchester mainly uses the M65 so is quicker than the shorter distance using the A65 to Leeds.
Similarly, a direct service allows the folks from Manchester to visit the Dales.

They are taking a fair diversion to use the M65 for any great length. I hope they use the M66 instead?

It is good for them to investigate it and establish the shopping list, expectations, requirements and demands. At that point, the stakeholders involved need to sit down and discuss what they want to do, the realistic developments and the funding options.

Personally, I think that if the train is not reaching at least Settle for the commuters and Appleby/Carlisle for the day trippers, then the business case is going to struggle for services. However, I think it has a chance if the case is developed properly. What are the current capabilities for turning at Settle or Settle Junction (for a Hellifield terminator)? I assume both have similar difficulties.

However, I think that my advice to SELRAP is the same for this. Get a bus, get the through rail ticketing, get running.

 

[Tomnick]

It's possible to turn back at Settle Jn (but that's unlikely to achieve more than a shunt between platforms at Hellifield would), then Blea Moor is the next opportunity to the north.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I'm asking a probably completely unrealistic question, but how much longer would Blackpool/Blakburn to Leeds/York take via Hellifield, compared with its current route via Bradford?
Northern could just start with a single train each way, if it wanted, once the signalling upgrade work was complete at Hellifield.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Skipton-East Lancashire Rail Action Partnership-SELRAP

Ah, Thank you.

Infact they could start with just extending he Manchester-Clitheroe trains to Hellifield or Settle perhaps on an experimental basis. The signaling must be in place already as there are freight and charter trains that use that route and sometimes diverted mainline trains too as well as the Sunday dales rail service.

These trains could connect with the Northern Rail services to Carlisle / Leeds at Hellifield in both directions. From what I recall, I think Hellifield has a large Island Platform, plus unused bay platforms at the south end too, so it could be feasable although it no doubt all comes down to money and passenger usage.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Useful to have Chatburn and Gisburn stations reopen as well.

Those two stations lasted until the 1960's, but there were two other stations on the line from Clitheroe to Hellifield:-
Newsholme..Closed 1957
Rimington....Closed 1958.

Are these two stations not now feasible propositions for reopening?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Those two stations lasted until the 1960's, but there were two other stations on the line from Clitheroe to Hellifield:-
Newsholme..Closed 1957
Rimington....Closed 1958.

Are these two stations not now feasible propositions for reopening?

I doubt it, Rimington's quite small, your typical deeply-rural village, a pub and a few houses. Newsholme's even smaller as far as I know. Chatburn is more sizeable, but I doubt big enough to justify a station, especially with its proximity to Clitheroe. Gisburn on the other hand I suspect would, it's a fairly busy little town and could act as a railhead for the surrounding villages.

I would prefer SELRAP over this (though both would be nice), but I think it's one for the future. I think extensions north of Clitheroe have been looked at seriously, and I don't think it was entirely ruled out.

 

[Toots]

Take it from me Matt,there has been no serious proposals to consider extending passenger services north of Clitheroe.The loadings for the Dalesrail are fairly good,but a regular passenger service simply couldn't be sustained week after week all year round.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Take it from me Matt,there has been no serious proposals to consider extending passenger services north of Clitheroe.The loadings for the Dalesrail are fairly good,but a regular passenger service simply couldn't be sustained week after week all year round.

Chatburn is currently served by the service number 7 run by Holmswood Coaches on the Clitheroe-Chatburn-Barley-Barrowford-Nelson bus route.

Gisburn is currently served by the service numbers 280 and X80 services on the Preston-Clitheroe-Gisburn-Skipton bus route.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Take it from me Matt,there has been no serious proposals to consider extending passenger services north of Clitheroe.The loadings for the Dalesrail are fairly good,but a regular passenger service simply couldn't be sustained week after week all year round.

If you just looked at population levels, it would look that way. But on the other hand, Leeds-Carlisle/Lancaster seems to do OK on the basis of just as little population beyond Skipton, which suggests there might be some merit in the idea given the likelihood of very little work being required beyond finding some spare trains (and presumably with all the electrification going on around Manchester, some units will become available over the next 5 years).

It's certainly not the kind of area you'd build a new line for, but given that there's a line already there...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I doubt it, Rimington's quite small, your typical deeply-rural village, a pub and a few houses. Newsholme's even smaller as far as I know. Chatburn is more sizeable, but I doubt big enough to justify a station, especially with its proximity to Clitheroe. Gisburn on the other hand I suspect would, it's a fairly busy little town and could act as a railhead for the surrounding villages.

If you were doing this line, how about a new station at Hellifield? It's quite a substantial settlement (by the standards of the area ), and the existing station could hardly be more inconveniently sited if the aim was to deliberately stop passengers using it! The proposed line on the other hand runs right through the centre of Hellifield. (The disadvantage being that Leeds trains couldn't use any new station).

 

[John55]

Chatburn is currently served by the service number 7 run by Holmswood Coaches on the Clitheroe-Chatburn-Barley-Barrowford-Nelson bus route.

Gisburn is currently served by the service numbers 280 and X80 services on the Preston-Clitheroe-Gisburn-Skipton bus route.

These are southbound and eastbound buses from Clitheroe neither are northbound.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

These are southbound and eastbound buses from Clitheroe neither are northbound.

I was referring to the fact that bus services to and from Clitheroe, the current terminal station, do in fact exist, in reply to both Chatburn and Gisburn being mentioned, as Clitheroe is a transport "hub" for the surrounding area. In fact, the array of bus stops outside the station interchange have a very wide range of destinations served by buses that meet a travelling demand by the general public.

If there are no direct bus services between Clitheroe and Hellifield, surely this will be explained by the lack of need by this travelling public.

Little Red Bus do run service 10 from Clitheroe-Slaidburn-Settle. for those wishing to access the railway route via Settle.

 

[Toots]

If you just looked at population levels, it would look that way. But on the other hand, Leeds-Carlisle/Lancaster seems to do OK on the basis of just as little population beyond Skipton, which suggests there might be some merit in the idea given the likelihood of very little work being required beyond finding some spare trains (and presumably with all the electrification going on around Manchester, some units will become available over the next 5 years).

It's certainly not the kind of area you'd build a new line for, but given that there's a line already there...



.

and you could of added that they are relaying the track as we speak,which they are!,but the fact remains that in order to run extra passenger services you need more units and believe me they are very expensive.Then there is the signalling,depending on where you are running the trains to.Off the top of my head,I think you would have to turn back at Ribblehead (Blea Moor),if you used the present set-up,but of course whilst this gives access to fares at Settle and perhaps a raison d etre to run trains up there, you'd need more units to maintain the present level of service to Clitheroe and I cannot see Settle generating enough passengers (income) to anywhere near justify a service to Manchester.
The dales Rail has fairly good loadings but even they tail off towards autumn (now),and that's just trying to fill two trains with leisure traffic,a full service in winter would be nigh on impossible to fill.
Finally to Paul's point.The fact you make Paul ,answers your own point,there is already a bus service,and again,stations,any kind are hugely expensive,so for what passengers they would generate would nowhere near justify the cost.

 

[Bill EWS]

So much negativity! If people such as Joseph Lock held as uch back in tjhose pioneering days his name would hardly be known today, if at all.

 

[tbtc]

So much negativity! If people such as Joseph Lock held as uch back in tjhose pioneering days his name would hardly be known today, if at all.

Do you think that there is going to be significant demand to run a regular train service through one of the least populated parts of England?

Or could the resources be used better on other (busy) lines which are struggling to meet demand.

 

[snail]

Do you think that there is going to be significant demand to run a regular train service through one of the least populated parts of England?

Or could the resources be used better on other (busy) lines which are struggling to meet demand.

It's very simple, just ask Richard Branson to run the line.

 

[Bill EWS]

Bransons a chancer and will only cherry pick what he wants, so isn't going to touch such services as being proposed here. If he was so desparate to keep the WCML why didn't he make an offer to run things free, as he suggests now. Just sounds liker a poor loser. In my opinion.

I still maintain that there is too much negativity when discussing such points, everyone appears to put on such negativity to every proposal these days. It comes over as a National sickness!

 

[Tiny Tim]

There are no serious proposals to run a service from Blackburn to Hellifield and it won't happen,there simply isn't the demand or the population centres to facilitate such a scheme and that's even if the intermediate stations were reopened.

There's certainly very little population between Clitheroe and Hellifield, but that's not really the reasoning behind the campaign to improve services. It's much more difficult to assess the potential for through services.