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More trespassers - Rannoch Viaduct

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StrollerEd

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OK. I'm not working, I'm half watching a TV programme about the Normans, so I will let you get back to other matters.

However, the Law does not stop still, and over the centuries it has changed - very often because it was challenged. And when two Laws appear to be in conflict, the judiciary resort to that of 'reasonable' - as in 'reasonable force' in an arrest or in preventing burgulary.

It may be time to recognise that railways are not fenced - or at least not pretend that is a reasonable defence in not having provided a notice.
 
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the sniper

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I don't really get your point, it seems like you're arguing for arguments sake. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, plain and simple.

If the Scottish require notices every 10 metres or so alongside the railway to warn them that railway trespass is illegal, then so be it, but I hope that those north of the border will fund the project.

Once they've done that they can move onto signposting the banks of the Motorways! :lol:
 

DaveNewcastle

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If it helps, I understand that Rannoch Moor is owned and controlled by Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH), (an equivalent of England's Environment Agency). There were efforts a couple of years ago to sell-off the land - I'm not aware that any action followed.
 

StrollerEd

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I don't really get your point, it seems like you're arguing for arguments sake. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, plain and simple.

If the Scottish require notices every 10 metres or so alongside the railway to warn them that railway trespass is illegal, then so be it, but I hope that those north of the border will fund the project.

Once they've done that they can move onto signposting the banks of the Motorways! :lol:

No I am not arguing for arguments sake, but to try to say that the focus should be on what is reasonable not just on legislation.

Agreed that ignorance of the law is no defence but if the norm is a right to roam, and there are no fences, and the trains are very seldom, and it is miles out into the country where free rambling takes place, then ..
.. a notice at each end of that bridge at Rannoch might not seem as silly as some posters initially supposed.

Of course I reject your suggestion that notices are required every 10 metres, but equally the fiction that notices in stations warn people of trespass at points at distance from the station.

DaveNewcastle, I think it doesnt matter who owns the Moor from either pov.

It may be illegal to cross the track but in rural areas that happens

Crossing the length of that bridge, with no prospect of recovery when a train arrives, is another matter - and a notice is no less redundant than notices around pylons etc.
 

GB

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Fact is there are fences that segregate the railway other than at authorised crossing points at which places there will be signs for the public. Putting a sign on the bridge is pointless as by nature it is a place that is not legally accessible to the public.
 

EltonRoad

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Ok, probably a stupid question...

But given that they are walking to one side of the bridge, is there a clear footway to one side that would give appearance of a pedestrian route?

No not at all. There is a walkway but it is clearly not there for general use. There is no access onto the viaduct, that is unless you are already walking on the railway.

The moorland terrain is boggy and can be difficult to walk on. These people were using the viaduct as a shortcut back to the station.
 

StrollerEd

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I guess the nature of this forum is to take care not to have passengers descend into anti-staff remarks - and also vice versa.

And as there was hesitation about 'reporting' a staff member doing what is shouldn't - with reference to the blind eye of the wise - so I have hesitated to 'report' the passengers who use a certain bridge in England (on a line being discussed in another thread) to walk home after closing time at night. They have strong belief that the Flying Scotsman will not suddenly appear 90 minutes early, but although a 'tradition' it is still illegal and has a hint of danger that there might be something coming down the track at half-past closing bell.
 

GB

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This is getting all rather silly now. Anti staff or anti passenger remarks have nothing at all to do with the issue at hand.

They may well believe that the flying scottsman will not arrive early (though it's not out side the realms of possibility), but what about tampers, ballast trains and VSTP movements???
 

Holly

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No not at all. There is a walkway but it is clearly not there for general use. There is no access onto the viaduct, that is unless you are already walking on the railway.
The moorland terrain is boggy and can be difficult to walk on. These people were using the viaduct as a shortcut back to the station.

It is clearly illegal what these people were doing.

It is not clear that it was dangerous assuming there is a workman's walkway, they crossed in daylight, if the people clearly understood that they were acting at their own risk, if they were careful, fit and alert (I expect hikers in the highlands typically are) and if they keep a keen lookout for trains (we have no idea about that).

Really, there needs to be some common sense. Perhaps they had an emergency, perhaps walking on the bog instead of the viaduct would have caused them such difficulties that a rescue became needed, or worse. It is not like anyone is proposing providing general access, including wheelchair access etc. to either viaduct or boggy moor. If what they were doing was reasonably safe, in the circumstances, and harmless then common sense dictates a blind eye needs to be turned to victimless law breaking.

Otherwise the UK will end up like the US, bankrupt, litigious, post-industrial, uncaring, in a downward spiral of poverty.

And again, as a matter of common sense, it is appropriate that there be warning signs each end of a bridge or viaduct if venturing on to it is significantly more dangerous than walking alongside the railway approaches. Not a legal requirement, just good sense, it could save a young person's life to remind them of the increased danger. At least it is likely to increase alertness.
 

scotsman

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Jeez-us!

Were they trained in Personal Track Safety? No.

Were they there with due cause that would be accepted as a defence in court? No.

For the record, Rannoch Moor is no stranger to walkers and there advised routes for crossing the bogs - there is no need to go on to the railway. If their bogs were that bad, they should have returned the way they came.

Did their actions pose a real danger to themselves? Yes.
 

StrollerEd

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This is getting all rather silly now. Anti staff or anti passenger remarks have nothing at all to do with the issue at hand.

They may well believe that the flying scottsman will not arrive early (though it's not out side the realms of possibility), but what about tampers, ballast trains and VSTP movements???

suggest you re-read my post more carefully. Reference to FS was not as you infer, and was prelude to indicating that there may be "tampers, ballast trains and VSTP movements" and other things that would cause harm...



For the record, would the orginal poster pl tell us how much time actually elapsed between the two people cross the bridge - now we understand using the workman's walkway - I can only supposed from what was written that it was some 90 minutes later.


I'm with Holly in not jumping to conclusions and condemnation, and applying the same blind eye that is argued for other misdemeours, as argued in other threads.

.. and I'm with Holly in not jumping to conclusions.
 

EltonRoad

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It is not clear that it was dangerous assuming there is a workman's walkway, they crossed in daylight, if the people clearly understood that they were acting at their own risk, if they were careful, fit and alert (I expect hikers in the highlands typically are) and if they keep a keen lookout for trains (we have no idea about that).

Without wishing to flame too much, it is clear as daylight that it is dangerous. I'm not a railway employee but what about these dangers:

- driver having to emergency stop
- driver not seeing them till too late
- risk of being hit by the train, either head on or by the side
- risk of falling off the viaduct

Whether they "clearly understood" they were acting at their own risk is irrelevant - they were on the viaduct, they shouldn't have been, end of.

Likewise, it doesn't matter a jot whether they're careful, fit and alert if they're half way across and the train is bearing down on them.

Really, there needs to be some common sense. Perhaps they had an emergency, perhaps walking on the bog instead of the viaduct would have caused them such difficulties that a rescue became needed, or worse. It is not like anyone is proposing providing general access, including wheelchair access etc. to either viaduct or boggy moor. If what they were doing was reasonably safe, in the circumstances, and harmless then common sense dictates a blind eye needs to be turned to victimless law breaking.

What emergency. They were carrying backpacks and hiking sticks, and were walking at a normal pace. What they were doing was not "reasonably safe" in any circumstances. For all they (or I) knew, a freight train could have been due, or a special (which was due), or a late-runner. A train coming south cannot be seen or heard till it rounds the curve just north of the viaduct - I know because I was standing there waiting for it.

Otherwise the UK will end up like the US, bankrupt, litigious, post-industrial, uncaring, in a downward spiral of poverty.

No it won't.

And again, as a matter of common sense, it is appropriate that there be warning signs each end of a bridge or viaduct if venturing on to it is significantly more dangerous than walking alongside the railway approaches. Not a legal requirement, just good sense, it could save a young person's life to remind them of the increased danger. At least it is likely to increase alertness.

In my view it is not needed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For the record, would the orginal poster pl tell us how much time actually elapsed between the two people cross the bridge - now we understand using the workman's walkway - I can only supposed from what was written that it was some 90 minutes later.

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're asking. Are you asking how much time elapsed between the people coming off the viaduct and the train arriving, or how long it took them to cross?
 

GB

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suggest you re-read my post more carefully. Reference to FS was not as you infer, and was prelude to indicating that there may be "tampers, ballast trains and VSTP movements" and other things that would cause harm...



For the record, would the orginal poster pl tell us how much time actually elapsed between the two people cross the bridge - now we understand using the workman's walkway - I can only supposed from what was written that it was some 90 minutes later.


I'm with Holly in not jumping to conclusions and condemnation, and applying the same blind eye that is argued for other misdemeours, as argued in other threads.

.. and I'm with Holly in not jumping to conclusions.

Sorry, "FS"?

What misdemeours are people turning a blind eye to in other threads?
 

DaveNewcastle

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For the record, Rannoch Moor is no stranger to walkers and there advised routes for crossing the bogs - there is no need to go on to the railway. If their bogs were that bad, they should have returned the way they came.

Did their actions pose a real danger to themselves? Yes.
I have to agree that this is an exceptional region - even the railway is partly 'floated' on the peat bog and the recorded station exits at (the inaccessible by road) Rannoch Moor are 1000 p.a. higher than the entrances - suggesting that people alight there with the sole purpose of walking down to Rannoch - or elsewhere.

Just for my own benefit, what are the shortest periods of time (in this RETB territory) in which it is physically possible for one train to pass over the Rannoch Viaduct after another train's crossing? (Clearly the answer will be very different in each direction, by virtue of the station loops)?
 
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Old Timer

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Are we now saying that it is OK to walk on the Railway line when it suits, and based upon the public timetable ?

Are we not losing the point here, that allowing walking on one section of track but not on another is hardly a sensible means of dealing with a far greater problem ?

The railway is not a playground nor a shortcut for those who it suits to use. It is private property and since the inception of Railways, the Law has considered it sufficiently unsafe and undesirable as to make the act criminal. In my book that tends to be somewhat of a giveaway as to how authority views things.
 

StrollerEd

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Could I ask the original poster, EltonRoad to say:

* where this bridge is, and how far it is from either station
* how long it was between when they were seen crossing the bridge and when the train came along

I wonder who they were and what led them to make the decision to do what they did. I am assuming that they did not have some official purpose.
 

EltonRoad

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Could I ask the original poster, EltonRoad to say:

* where this bridge is, and how far it is from either station
* how long it was between when they were seen crossing the bridge and when the train came along

I wonder who they were and what led them to make the decision to do what they did. I am assuming that they did not have some official purpose.

(1) The viaduct is just north of Rannoch station, about a full train length separates it from the station. The next station north is Corrour, some 12 miles. However the loop isn't used here (except maybe road-rail vehicles). Tulloch is the next loop, half an hour north.

(2) I can't see what this has got to do with it. The point is a charter or a freight or a late-running service can come at any time. They were not officials, they were hikers taking a shortcut.
 
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