Most Shameful Stock Withdrawal

[ChiefPlanner]

Class 120 Cross Country DMU sets (WR)

Riddled with asbestos unfortunately ..

 

[A0wen]

Class 120 Cross Country DMU sets (WR)

Riddled with asbestos unfortunately ..

And I think long gone before privatisation........

Most had done almost 30 years, so not a bad life. The asbestos problem had claimed a number of other classes at a younger life than that. Problem was it made almost any form of overhaul uneconomic.

 

[colchesterken]

309s I liked them fast good ride nice seats. smart front end till they fitted flat drivers window
They could have been fitted with door locks as Mk 3 s or the 421s that ran to Lymington

 

[A0wen]

309s I liked them fast good ride nice seats. smart front end till they fitted flat drivers window
They could have been fitted with door locks as Mk 3 s or the 421s that ran to Lymington

Again, though, these weren't withdrawn because of them being slam door stock - BR had started the replacement of these units by introducing class 321s onto the GE.

The majority were withdrawn by BR - so pre-privatisation.

The only units which did succumb because they were slam door were the 7 which had ended up with First North Western who had a franchise commitment to withdraw slam door stock.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_309

I'm not sure why BR felt the need to replace the 309s with the 321s though - they were both 100mph units, so I can only assume it was to try to reduce the number of different unit types in use on the GE area and that it freed up the 312s to the LTS to allow the older units there to be withdrawn.

 

[yorksrob]

Have you ever seen a 4VEP unload at Waterloo? Don't think you'll see a train empty out faster than that

Quite. I was disgusted to read a published book recently where the author felt the need to criticise the VEP's as "outstaying their welcome". Completely unjustified rot of course. Yes, they were a compromise between comfort, the need to entrain and detrain quickly and seated capacity, but they were in my mind a very good one. Easily comfortable enough for hour and a half journeys between my home town (Ashford, Kent) and London, and frankly more comfortable than many trains still around today.

 

[Batman]

What about LM withdrawing 150's on the Chase Line at the start of the franchise in 2007?

It was nice to have the 170's at first, but now it's clear that these units are not suitable for local services because of their low density seating and poor acceleration.

They should have kept the 150's for another 4 years and replaced them with additional 172's in 2011.

 

[jopsuk]

As we're failing miserably to stick to post privitisation the withdrawl and scrapping of the Blue Pullmans after little over a decade of use- with the complete scrapping being perhaps the biggest part of the crime.

 

[HSTEd]

HOw about withdrawal of the XC HST fleet apparently without the originally planned order of 7-car DMUs?

 

[pendolino]

What about Stephenson's Rocket? That only lasted 10 years. 10 years! Scandalous!

also: I much prefer 442s over 460s, much more comfortable

 

[sprinterguy]

HOw about withdrawal of the XC HST fleet apparently without the originally planned order of 7-car DMUs?

When were 7-car DMUs ever proposed for the Crosscountry network? If such a thing was ever said at all then it must have been very, very early on in the life of the Crosscountry franchise, when Virgin were outlining their initial intentions.

 

[HSTEd]

When were 7-car DMUs ever proposed for the Crosscountry network? If such a thing was ever said at all then it must have been very, very early on in the life of the Crosscountry franchise, when Virgin were outlining their initial intentions.

Indeed, there were supposedly plans for a mixed fleet of 4/5 car and 7 car DMUs, with the former being used for replacing loco hauled formations and the latter for the HST formations.

As I understand it anyway.

 

[sprinterguy]

Indeed, there were supposedly plans for a mixed fleet of 4/5 car and 7 car DMUs, with the former being used for replacing loco hauled formations and the latter for the HST formations.

As I understand it anyway.

Interesting if this is the case, as by 2000 the proposal had evolved into a fleet of 4-carriage loco hauled push-pull sets and 4-car tilting DMUs. Then of course as everyone knows the loco hauled sets were dropped and replaced by an order for a similar number of non-tilting Voyagers, and the tilting sets gained an extra carriage.

 

[pemma]

Perhaps it wasn't retained because it was "non standard" against FNW's wider fleet and the inherent operating issues and running costs that retaining would have entailed meant it was not viable to do so?

The FNW mk2 set was only used for peak time workings a bit like the WAG loco hauled sets. But if we're talking about mk2s on the Settle-Carlisle being withdrawn at the same time (at the start of the Northern franchise) then an extra set would have added viability to keeping the loco-hauled sets in service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Whichever way you look at it the Channel Tunnel rolling stock programme was "shameful".
The NoL class 373 units, the 92s, and the night stock were all bungled (by DfT mainly).
Even the main Eurostar fleet was too large.
Nobody has ever given a cost for all this useless spend (to say nothing of the infrastructure changes made, like the depot at Longsight).

Year after year I used to pass the unused NoL sets parked up at North Pole.
Eventually 3 of them got used on the ECML, but the waste of world-class technology and resources was shocking.
Most of the redundant stock got sold off (to SNCF and CN - I wonder at what price?).
Even now the 92s are very lightly used and the line of rusting electric locos at Crewe (90s as well) is embarrassing.
Is it any wonder that the Treasury frequently doubts rail business plans?

To this list you can add: an empty Waterloo International, an unused viaduct in Battersea and HS1 connection at Gravesend, Redhill-Tonbridge electrification, Sheepcote Lane Curve, Shortlands diveunder and many other Channel Tunnel-related investments that are now superfluous.
Mr Portillo had a hand in all that (and his successors, including John Prescott).

This is quite a good rant, really.

 

[yorksrob]

To this list you can add: an empty Waterloo International, an unused viaduct in Battersea and HS1 connection at Gravesend, Redhill-Tonbridge electrification, Sheepcote Lane Curve, Shortlands diveunder and many other Channel Tunnel-related investments that are now superfluous.
Mr Portillo had a hand in all that (and his successors, including John Prescott).

This is quite a good rant, really.

To be fair though, the Tonbridge - Redhill electrification is a useful infill, and the Shortlands diveunder is probably operationally handy (particularly since it's on the South Eastern division which has always had rather too many flat junctions).

 

[D365]

I agree, the now redundant Eurostar/CTRL infrastructure has been such a waste. Waterloo services, North Pole depot (due to be reused for GW IEPs), 92 locomotives... I could go on about all sorts!

Why can't the remainder of the 373 sets (including reformed NoLs) be (re)instated into Eurostar service - the SNCF lease on the 4 ski-trains will expire soon, if not already.

 

[Zoe]

Interesting if this is the case, as by 2000 the proposal had evolved into a fleet of 4-carriage loco hauled push-pull sets and 4-car tilting DMUs. Then of course as everyone knows the loco hauled sets were dropped and replaced by an order for a similar number of non-tilting Voyagers, and the tilting sets gained an extra carriage.

http://www.alycidon.com/ALYCIDON RA...VE/INF SRCS 2003/Informed Sources 01 2003.htm

Looking back, I note that six years ago this month this column was enthused by Virgin's franchise winning proposal for Cross Country. This would emulate Regional Railways in the 1980s and replace Cross Country's loco-hauled stock with ‘fast and frequent three and four car DMUs connecting to create a “string of pearls” network'. But I was also surprised by the decision to replace the IC125 fleet with 24 seven car DMUs from the May 2004 timetable when they came off lease.

It's amazing what you forget, because that seemed a sensible phased programme, devised by Virgin's consultants Steer Davies Gleave – yes, that Steer. Somewhere along the line it got much more ambitious and by the time Richard Bowker was buying the new train fleet – yes, him too – we'd got into a radical new timetable and total replacement with a mix of standard and tilting Voyager DEMUs, all in service for September 2002.

A significant change was that the seven car IC125-replacement DMUs were now 40 five car DEMUs effectively running at twice the service frequency. The “string of pearls” units were four car.

It seems this plan was not as radical as Operation Princess. Back then the 4 car frequent service was to be a more limited network. Had the 7 car plan gone ahead then frequencies on some routes may not have been as high as they are now.

 

[knight2004]

i think the storing of ANY DMU stock should be seriously frowned upon, having done several journeys arouns peak to swinton decently from Manchester victoria i can see why a 2 car isn'et enough but a 3 car would go down quite well but of course the stock isn't there

 

[Yew]

As we're failing miserably to stick to post privitisation the withdrawl and scrapping of the Blue Pullmans after little over a decade of use- with the complete scrapping being perhaps the biggest part of the crime.

They where a microfleet, not similar to any other units the time. although I like to think of them as a MK2-based HST, I understand the engineering behind them to be different to a MK2 Carriage. I would say the Apt-P's where worse, as soon as the problems had been ran out, they where scrapped, with little over half a set remaining. ie; not enough to make restoration for a railtour viable, unless you could find some more carriages hidden away somewhere.

 

[David10]

The NoL class 373 units

I think the half set at Temple Mills (3308) has never been used. Aside from a few shakedown runs think the move from North Pole to Temple Mills is the only other journey it has made.

 

[tbtc]

Whichever way you look at it the Channel Tunnel rolling stock programme was "shameful".
The NoL class 373 units, the 92s, and the night stock were all bungled (by DfT mainly).
Even the main Eurostar fleet was too large.
Nobody has ever given a cost for all this useless spend (to say nothing of the infrastructure changes made, like the depot at Longsight).

Year after year I used to pass the unused NoL sets parked up at North Pole.
Eventually 3 of them got used on the ECML, but the waste of world-class technology and resources was shocking.
Most of the redundant stock got sold off (to SNCF and CN - I wonder at what price?).
Even now the 92s are very lightly used and the line of rusting electric locos at Crewe (90s as well) is embarrassing.
Is it any wonder that the Treasury frequently doubts rail business plans?

To this list you can add: an empty Waterloo International, an unused viaduct in Battersea and HS1 connection at Gravesend, Redhill-Tonbridge electrification, Sheepcote Lane Curve, Shortlands diveunder and many other Channel Tunnel-related investments that are now superfluous.
Mr Portillo had a hand in all that (and his successors, including John Prescott).

This is quite a good rant, really.

Since it took many years to build HS1 to St Pancras, what was the alternative to building Eurostar to Waterloo (with all the infrastructure that is now unused)?

 

[Zoe]

Since it took many years to build HS1 to St Pancras, what was the alternative to building Eurostar to Waterloo (with all the infrastructure that is now unused)?

Build the CTRL in time for the opening of the Channel Tunnel like they did in France?

 

[tbtc]

Build the CTRL in time for the opening of the Channel Tunnel like they did in France?

Ideally, of course. But there was no chance of doing that in time, so Waterloo was the solution for thirteen years. I don't think that there was any prospect of HS1 being built all the way to St Pancras when the tunnel was opened.

 

[HSTEd]

Build the CTRL in time for the opening of the Channel Tunnel like they did in France?

LGV Nord had utility far in excess of that of CTRL, indeed I am not sure that it is worth it even now.

Needs far more domestic services, ideally five or six trains per hour every hour.

 

[D365]

Wouldn't that slow the 'true high-speed' services? Perhaps the 395s could be modified for higher speed operation.

 

[ainsworth74]

LGV Nord had utility far in excess of that of CTRL, indeed I am not sure that it is worth it even now.

I think the problem with the CTRL is that we finished just in time for one the biggest global recessions in history. Given time I think it will prove it's utility not just for getting people to London quickly from Europe but perhaps more importantly for getting European gauge freight into London. But none of that will happen until the economies of both the UK and Europe recover and begin to grow again.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

To be fair though, the Tonbridge - Redhill electrification is a useful infill, and the Shortlands diveunder is probably operationally handy (particularly since it's on the South Eastern division which has always had rather too many flat junctions).

I quite agree that some of the bits left over are useful, but they would never have been funded without the Channel Tunnel commitments.
The Redhill-Tonbridge section was never used by Class 92s as planned because it (and the Clapham Jn-Redhill section) needed even more money throwing at it to solve signalling interference problems.

I remember a parliamentary debate over BR funding, or the lack of it, and the Transport Minister said that the big chunk being thrown at Channel Tunnel routes had to come out of the same pot.
I'm all in favour of the Channel Tunnel and its rail links, but we threw a lot of the investment down the drain and damaged other projects as a result.

 

[tbtc]

I'm all in favour of the Channel Tunnel and its rail links, but we threw a lot of the investment down the drain and damaged other projects as a result.

Other than "finding the money to build HS1 all the way to St Pancras" twenty years ago, what other options were there for getting Eurostars to London?

 

[tempests1]

Waterloo International will eventually be used by South West Trains, although it would make sense for South Eastern to have been able to divert off the Chatham’s to relieve pressure on Victoria, it would have been like robbing Peter to pay Paul as SWT need additional platforms in the peaks.
An interesting scheme regarding the fleet of slam door EMU’s that never took off was the Adtranz Classic Concept. It tied up well with the Southern Regions historical re-use of traction motors, underframes etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_424

http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/class424_exp.html

They estimated it would have been a quarter of the price of a brand new unit.

 

[D365]

Only Platform 20 is going to be bought back into use for now, which is a shame as we are desperate for capacity all over. The "Networker Classic" concept was definitely interesting, although the one demonstrator DT has been scrapped. They claimed it would have a life expectancy of 15 years at a quarter the price of new stock; just under 1/3 the life at 1/4 of the price. Plus AC/DC potential! Why didn't anyone take it up...