Mother with pushchair 'told to stop having kids' by train conductor

[tbtc]

I'm fairly safe in my belief that if you re read my posts, at no point have I stated that being asked to fold a buggy up amounts to discrimination.

All I brought up was that the railway needs to look at how they can transport the population without discrimination. When questioned on my opinion, I stated how I felt this particular person had been discriminated against

You're confusing me here. Are you saying that asking this person to fold her buggy is discrimination or not?

You're saying that you've not claimed that this amounts to discrimination, then talking about how she has been discriminated against. Is it just me who is confused?

 

[route:oxford]

Neary 40 Years ago, it wasn't a problem taking a Silver Cross (massive by todays standards) on a DMU... I know my mother trailed around Central Scotland with me seeing friends using the trains rather than drive... The railways were fairly accommodating, even if it meant sitting in the "guards van" rather than the regular passenger area. At certain termini, they also allowed passengers to sit whilst the train moved to the turnback area and back in order to avoid negotiating a passenger bridge.

Times change though, and most trains are probably no more accommodating than back then (you could only squeeze so many wheelchairs or prams in the guards van too), the only real difference is that the accompanying passengers no longer need to sit on crates of yesterdays newspapers and red star parcels.

Try getting on a bus in Edinburgh with a push chair unfolded...

 

[whoshotjimmi]

You're confusing me here. Are you saying that asking this person to fold her buggy is discrimination or not?

You're saying that you've not claimed that this amounts to discrimination, then talking about how she has been discriminated against. Is it just me who is confused?

Sigh.

Ok. Asking her to fold a buggy up is not discriminatory. Telling her to stop having kids is.

My point about being unable to use a train if one has a pushchair is entirely seperate from my opinion on this particular case. I believe it would be classed as discrimination if someone were refused entry to a train on the basis of having a pushchair. The point I am making is that the railway needs to do something about this situation BEFORE it becomes a problem. Proactive instead of reactive.

As a complete aside, having read the conditions of carriage, it is interesting that a wheelchair is allowed on the train but has to be folded unless it is in use. This would appear to go against what the Northern guard said about the policy of only having 1 wheelchair at a time. Though I am sure Northern could cover this with health and safety rules, it would appear to go against the conditions of carriage.

Even more irrelevant, I wonder at what point an animal would be classed as livestock? My missus wants a micro pig. Still, if she kept it in her handbag.....

 

[68000]

I respect anybody's opinion. But telling people to get a grip and calling posts bull**** isn't constructive and adds nothing to the debate.

Your contribution on this topic is alarmist and actually does nothing to add to the original post. The woman was asked to fold her pushchair as space is limited and you are pushing the 'the railways discriminate line'. You have failed to acknowledge the fact that most forms of transport cannot accommodate all who want to travel the way they want and you also fail to acknowledge the huge cost to the taxpayer to make everything compliant to DDA

 

[the sniper]

You're confusing me here. Are you saying that asking this person to fold her buggy is discrimination or not?

You're saying that you've not claimed that this amounts to discrimination, then talking about how she has been discriminated against. Is it just me who is confused?

I'm still trying to get my head around this women being 'discriminated' against not because she was a parent, not because she was a pushchair owner, but because she was part of a group, class, or category (thanks for the dictionary definition of discrimination boss :roll of stupid parents who refuse to fold up their buggies because they're incredibly selfish!

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Your contribution on this topic is alarmist and actually does nothing to add to the original post. The woman was asked to fold her pushchair as space is limited and you are pushing the 'the railways discriminate line'. You have failed to acknowledge the fact that most forms of transport cannot accommodate all who want to travel the way they want and you also fail to acknowledge the huge cost to the taxpayer to make everything compliant to DDA

1/ I have acknowledged that all forms of travel cannot accomodate everybody all the time. Please read my posts.

2/ I have not mentioned the taxpayer element because I have no desire to do so. Whenever anything has to be paid for, inevitably the money has to come from somewhere. DDA compliance is mandatory. At the moment, some aspects have specific target dates. Some do not. This is not the issue. The issue is regarding discrimination and my belief that it should be tackled. There are many things that TOC's can do to improve the situation without new trains or refurbishment. It just takes a bit of brain power, and a bit of willing to communicate effectively to the public.

3/ I have stated time and again that i do not believe that asking someone to fold up a buggy is discriminatory.

4/ My contribution is alarmist because of my belief of how serious the situation is. Alarmist or not, it is a contribution and not just a petty remark.

Finally, if you want to seriously discuss the matter, please do so. I enjoy a debate and talking about how I believe the world could be a better place. I also know my limits as a person and that, though I believe strongly about something, I cannot change the world. But please do not make remarks with carefree abandon. Or, if you choose to do so, please fully read my posts first. Now, if you would like to tell me what your reasons for disagreeing with me are, I would very much like to hear them.

 

[atomicdanny]

Nice to see that the Daily Mail still only posts bad things about the railways, I mean seriously when was the last time they actually said something good about the railways?

(Note: I agree that what was said to the Mother was bad though but to talk it to the Daily Mail just shows how attention seeking the mother is though!, and was not something that should be said, although I've seen some conductors get a lot of abuse, for a train being late or a train being held at a red signal!)

 

[68000]

1/ I have acknowledged that all forms of travel cannot accomodate everybody all the time. Please read my posts.

2/ I have not mentioned the taxpayer element because I have no desire to do so. Whenever anything has to be paid for, inevitably the money has to come from somewhere. DDA compliance is mandatory. At the moment, some aspects have specific target dates. Some do not. This is not the issue. The issue is regarding discrimination and my belief that it should be tackled. There are many things that TOC's can do to improve the situation without new trains or refurbishment. It just takes a bit of brain power, and a bit of willing to communicate effectively to the public.

3/ I have stated time and again that i do not believe that asking someone to fold up a buggy is discriminatory.

4/ My contribution is alarmist because of my belief of how serious the situation is. Alarmist or not, it is a contribution and not just a petty remark.

Finally, if you want to seriously discuss the matter, please do so. I enjoy a debate and talking about how I believe the world could be a better place. I also know my limits as a person and that, though I believe strongly about something, I cannot change the world. But please do not make remarks with carefree abandon. Or, if you choose to do so, please fully read my posts first. Now, if you would like to tell me what your reasons for disagreeing with me are, I would very much like to hear them.

Right, so your contribution is that the woman was not discriminated against therefore it is about how you believe the railways discriminate or have the potential to discriminate. For this you have offered an argument based on your belief that not being able to accommodate an unfolded pushchair is discrimination?

 

[Geezertronic]

There is absolutely no discrimination in the woman being told that she should have no more kids, that is not discrimination and anyone should be able to realise that. If the comment is true, it's just someone being an arse, nothing more and nothing less.

Much ado about nothing really, if the comment is proven then disciplinary action should follow. There is really no bandwagon to jump on here...

 

[Ferret]

Can somebody pass whoshotjimmi a shovel?! For goodness sake, talk about labouring a point

As for the "story", it's blatantly obvious it was a joke intended to make light of a situation. Still, it doesn't change the fact that pushchairs are an absolute pain in the backside at times, not helped by a lack of storage space on some trains. Some pushchair owners are incredibly selfish though - blocking aisles and access for everyone else is a common problem. And then there are some parents who seem to think that their offspring in a pushchair are a passport to sit in first class and occupy the wheelchair space in there. Ummm, I'm sorry to disappoint folks but it doesn't work like that - try again! And why are modern pushchairs so bloody big? They are built like tanks. Why why why why why?!

 

[yorkie]

And why are modern pushchairs so bloody big? They are built like tanks. Why why why why why?!

The sort of people who buy them are the sort of people who have those huge cars that are built like tanks. They have absolutely no desire to give a damn about anyone but themselves.

I think there should be a maximum size of buggy, there should be either a rule that they always have to be folded or give them a dedicated space (in addition to the wheelchair space) and allow reservations (on reservable trains) and on non-reservable trains say first come first served. Maximum 1 per train. No ifs, no buts. This should be clearly advertised so no-one can complain.

I don't think anyone is saying that the person with the buggy should not have folded it up. The issue is just regarding the comment. If it is true then it was perhaps not a wise comment, but not a big enough deal for the newspapers to report. Car crashes are less worthy of a mention these days (but that's because they are so common)

 

[GodAtum]

Do you think there should be rules for the amount of luggage that a person can bring aboard a train?

 

[lauraGeeGee]

As for the "story", it's blatantly obvious it was a joke intended to make light of a situation. Still, it doesn't change the fact that pushchairs are an absolute pain in the backside at times, not helped by a lack of storage space on some trains. Some pushchair owners are incredibly selfish though - blocking aisles and access for everyone else is a common problem. And then there are some parents who seem to think that their offspring in a pushchair are a passport to sit in first class and occupy the wheelchair space in there. Ummm, I'm sorry to disappoint folks but it doesn't work like that - try again! And why are modern pushchairs so bloody big? They are built like tanks. Why why why why why?!

The sort of people who buy them are the sort of people who have those huge cars that are built like tanks. They have absolutely no desire to give a damn about anyone but themselves.

I think there should be a maximum size of buggy, there should be either a rule that they always have to be folded or give them a dedicated space (in addition to the wheelchair space) and allow reservations (on reservable trains) and on non-reservable trains say first come first served. Maximum 1 per train. No ifs, no buts. This should be clearly advertised so no-one can complain.

I don't think anyone is saying that the person with the buggy should not have folded it up. The issue is just regarding the comment. If it is true then it was perhaps not a wise comment, but not a big enough deal for the newspapers to report. Car crashes are less worthy of a mention these days (but that's because they are so common)

Agree with these!

I do believe it was a flippant remark and a huge meal is being made out of it.

I just don't understand why people don't fold buggies To me, it is just selfish, plain and simple.

People don't choose to be in wheelchairs but people do choose to have kids and then some of them want everyone else to suffer. We go out of our way on the railway with disabled people and rightly so, that's how it should be. The times I've had someone trying to board my horrendously packed train in the peak with a massive buggy. It's madness and not fair on the day to day commuters who are already paying a fortune and jostling for standing room only as it is, without the buggies.

 

[Tom B]

Do you think there should be rules for the amount of luggage that a person can bring aboard a train?

AIUI there are.

 

[yorkie]

Do you think there should be rules for the amount of luggage that a person can bring aboard a train?

I think that the rules that exist, should exist, yes. They are in fact quite generous. They can be found in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

[dave12435]

To be fair
The railways are a lot more disabled person and person with buggy friendly than they were even just a few years ago m ost modern and refurbed stock has space for wheelchairs and buggies
Its more than i can say for some buses

 

[lauraGeeGee]

Just to add.

I did prevent someone bringing a surf board onto the train once! It was about 12 feet long!
Also someone else who wanted to use the DLR to transport a 3 seater sofa.

I didn't end up in the Daily Mail though!

 

[tbtc]

To be fair
The railways are a lot more disabled person and person with buggy friendly than they were even just a few years ago m ost modern and refurbed stock has space for wheelchairs and buggies
Its more than i can say for some buses

Most buses are DDA compliant - all single decker buses will be accessible by 2016 and all double deckers from 2017 IIRC - in places like London and Edinburgh all buses have been DDA complaint for a while

Like with the trains, there will be some old ones that aren't compliant (such as the Pacer we're presumably talking about in Huddersfield), but progress is being made in all forms of public transport

 

[Dolive22]

Discrimination falls in to two main classes, actively setting out to obstruct someone because they fall in to a class (broadly spite) and simply not adjusting for a difference (broadly laziness). In law there are three types, actively setting out to disadvantage, applying a rule that disadvantages a member of a class without a good reason and failing to make reasonable adjustment.

As I understand this situation, a rule is being applied (that buggies must be folded) that has the effect of disadvantaging mothers (and fathers) of young children. You can make a pretty good argument that the railway company cannot reasonably be expected to not apply such a rule. To follow the black person analogy, it is like not allowing a black actor to play a white character, where there is some reason, such as a plot detail or very widely held expectation that a character is white, why the character must be white.

 

[90019]

Try getting on a bus in Edinburgh with a push chair unfolded...

If it's not busy, it's not an issue.
The Gemini 2s on the 22 have been branded as "Buggy Buses", due to having space for both a wheelchair and at least one buggy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Most buses are DDA compliant - all single decker buses will be accessible by 2016 and all double deckers from 2017 IIRC - in places like London and Edinburgh all buses have been DDA complaint for a while

Edinburgh's whole fleet (Excluding some of the tour buses and now that 433 is back as the Forth Bridges Tour bus) has been low floor since late 2009.

 

[68000]

Most buses are DDA compliant - all single decker buses will be accessible by 2016 and all double deckers from 2017 IIRC - in places like London and Edinburgh all buses have been DDA complaint for a while

Like with the trains, there will be some old ones that aren't compliant (such as the Pacer we're presumably talking about in Huddersfield), but progress is being made in all forms of public transport

Correct although what will happen when 2 wheelchairs & a pushchair want to board the same bus?

 

[yorkie]

Correct although what will happen when 2 wheelchairs & a pushchair want to board the same bus?

The Daily Mail will be on standby!

 

[tbtc]

Correct although what will happen when 2 wheelchairs & a pushchair want to board the same bus?

BUses often have a sticker saying that wheelchairs have priority (which is fair enough, as buggies can be folded by the parent), but there are times when there's not enough space for everyone - which is a dream for writers of downmarket tabloids

 

[Mojo]

Have I missed the point (or has everyone else)? But this story is not about being asked to fold down a pushchair, which happens all the time it's a non-story, but about being spoken to rudely by the train conductor?

 

[jon0844]

All I brought up was that the railway needs to look at how they can transport the population without discrimination.

We need to remove the word discrimination from this whole thread.

I agree the railway needs to look at how they can transport the population EASIER, or with LESS INCONVENIENCE. Yes, they should. And until then, people with bikes, large bags, buggies, trolleys or whatever ARE going to be put out a little.

Discrimination is totally irrelevant in this argument.

 

[yorkie]

Have I missed the point (or has everyone else)? But this story is not about being asked to fold down a pushchair, which happens all the time it's a non-story, but about being spoken to rudely by the train conductor?

That's right. Which is a non-story. It only becomes a story because they're trying to suggest that there should be loads of room for buggies, I guess. Either way it's a non-story.

 

[68000]

Have I missed the point (or has everyone else)? But this story is not about being asked to fold down a pushchair, which happens all the time it's a non-story, but about being spoken to rudely by the train conductor?

No you have not missed the point, the conductor was an arse to speak to someone like that. The tangent came about from the whole 'railways are discriminatory' line

 

[yorksrob]

Ultimately, the conductor pointed out that the passenger had to collapse the buggy and make the children sit down of their own accord. Whilst the conductor may have said this in an inappropriate way, I don't see anything wrong with the general policy. Frankly I don't see why everything should be permanently tilted towards "hard working families". What about hard working single people? Why should they be inconvenienced just because some mother can't be bothered to get her sprogg out of the buggy?

 

[lauraGeeGee]

ultimately, the conductor pointed out that the passenger had to collapse the buggy and make the children sit down of their own accord. Whilst the conductor may have said this in an inappropriate way, i don't see anything wrong with the general policy. Frankly i don't see why everything should be permanently tilted towards "hard working families". What about hard working single people? Why should they be inconvenienced just because some mother can't be bothered to get her sprogg out of the buggy?

absolutely!

 

[royaloak]

Take all the bloody seats out, then it would be like one big guards van and there will be loads of room for lazy twits that cant/wont fold pushchairs down, oh but then that would discriminate against people that want to sit down, silly me!

The discrimination card gets rolled out everytime some-one doesnt get their own way, boring boring :roll: