My Overground Train rolled back at Shepherd's Bush yesterday

[Voyager 2093]

Yesterday at my London Overground Train which I boarded at Shepherd's Bush rolled back for around 5 seconds before departing. I just wanted to know if anybody else was on this Train. It was then service from Clapham Junction terminating at Willesden Junction.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Nice of you to potentially drop someone in the brown stuff.

 

[the sniper]

I just wanted to know if anybody else was on this Train.

Unless it was special in some kind of way, wouldn't it be a heck of an unlikely coincidence that someone on here would also be on the same train...?

Anyway... How are roll backs caused? I presume they're just caused by the driver not getting on the power soon enough?

 

[Jordy]

Nice of you to potentially drop someone in the brown stuff.

Re the above: For those who can't see, details were originally posted but deleted by Jamaal.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

If you look at my response it was posted before it was edited. More than enough time for a manager or someone else to make a note of the details & instigate an investigation which could result in disciplinary action for a simple mistake.

 

[jon0844]

At night, drivers will often open doors on certain stock when the train is still going at a fast enough speed to potentially cause someone to fall should they be silly enough to jump off immediately.

I was on a FCC service on Friday that rolled back a bit, but the doors were closed.

 

[ukrob]

If you look at my response it was posted before it was edited. More than enough time for a manager or someone else to make a note of the details & instigate an investigation which could result in disciplinary action for a simple mistake.

So are you saying that this (potentially) dangerous movement shouldn't be investigated? If it was through no fault of the driver (ie a technical problem) then the driver has done nothing wrong, and it would have been logged, right?

 

[mumrar]

On all modern units there is a device called traction interlock. I believe that if the reverser is set to forward or reverse, this means the brakes can't be released when door interlock is lost. Some drivers use this as a means to prepare to depart a station by having the brake handle in 'off'. If the driver forgets he's moved the brake to 'off' and moves the reverser to 'neutral' then the train can roll back with the doors open. This *may* be what happened, it's happened on trains I've been a guard on before, but as I was not there, I don't know the individual circumstances for what occurred, this is purely some speculative information.

 

[ladydsm]

A train rolling back is a big no no if a driver did this on an assessment he would fail trains cant roll with the doors open because of traction interlock unless it been isolated as for the fcc driver opening the doors before the train has stopped is wrong as this would have caused an emergency brake application
the person who started this thread could have got this driver in big trouble so I would ask unless you want to get people the sack you do not put threads like this on here .

 

[ukrob]

A train rolling back is a big no no if a driver did this on an assessment he would fail trains cant roll with the doors open because of traction interlock unless it been isolated as for the fcc driver opening the doors before the train has stopped is wrong as this would have caused an emergency brake application
the person who started this thread could have got this driver in big trouble so I would ask unless you want to get people the sack you do not put threads like this on here .

The same question to you:

So are you saying that this (potentially) dangerous movement shouldn't be investigated? If it was through no fault of the driver (ie a technical problem) then the driver has done nothing wrong, and it would have been logged, right?

And that is after your admission that, in your words, "this is a big no-no".

I'm not asking if you think it should be posted on a public forum, that is a different question

 

[TDK]

On all modern units there is a device called traction interlock. I believe that if the reverser is set to forward or reverse, this means the brakes can't be released when door interlock is lost. Some drivers use this as a means to prepare to depart a station by having the brake handle in 'off'. If the driver forgets he's moved the brake to 'off' and moves the reverser to 'neutral' then the train can roll back with the doors open. This *may* be what happened, it's happened on trains I've been a guard on before, but as I was not there, I don't know the individual circumstances for what occurred, this is purely some speculative information.

It's not traction interlock, traction interlock prevents the driver from taking power, depending on the unit the brakes are applied fully when doors are open, for someone to say doors were opened whilst the train was moving is likely false unless the EBS has been operated or a similar safety device isolated. Units with a single power/brake conroller have a hold over button if this is released prematurely the train will roll back momentarily I am not sure but I think all lorol units apart from 319's or 31x's (if they have them) have a single power/brake controller. So to sum this up,if the doors are open on any sliding door stock (maybe except those produced before 1985) the brake is fully applied.

 

[the sniper]

On all modern units there is a device called traction interlock. I believe that if the reverser is set to forward or reverse, this means the brakes can't be released when door interlock is lost. Some drivers use this as a means to prepare to depart a station by having the brake handle in 'off'. If the driver forgets he's moved the brake to 'off' and moves the reverser to 'neutral' then the train can roll back with the doors open.

Interesting, thanks for the explanation Mumrar. Another question though, why would the driver move the reverser to 'neutral'? Is there a reason why a driver wouldn't want to keep the reverser in 'forward', as from what you've said, it seems logical that you'd want to keep in 'forward'.

 

[Greenback]

Did the Op say the doors were open before they edited the details out? Or did the train roll back before moving forward?

 

[TDK]

A train rolling back is a big no no if a driver did this on an assessment he would fail trains cant roll with the doors open because of traction interlock unless it been isolated as for the fcc driver opening the doors before the train has stopped is wrong as this would have caused an emergency brake application
the person who started this thread could have got this driver in big trouble so I would ask unless you want to get people the sack you do not put threads like this on here .

With an ID like ladydsm I thought you would have known the difference between traction interlock and brake interlock, as for a train rolling back if it isless than 0.5m (2') there is no come back and I for one would not dicipline a driver for such an error however if it is more than this then it is a different can of worms. Of course I have answered such posts before especially the spotters with GPS monitoring train speed then publicising the train was over speed with times etc! My outlook is if you see someone in front of you doing 80mph on the motoway would you call the police? nuff said.

 

[GB]

I'm not asking if you think it should be posted on a public forum, that is a different question

I don't think anyone as raised the opinion that incidents such as this should not be investigated but rather the posting of such things in public can lead to bad places. There are already claims that some drivers "often" open doors on the move at night and as far as I can see this is unsubstantiated.

As for the reverser being put in neutral, when at a stand on the Class 66 this disables the DSD meaning the driver can take his foot of the pedal, I assume this would be similar for a unit.

 

[ladydsm]

The same question to you:

So are you saying that this (potentially) dangerous movement shouldn't be investigated? If it was through no fault of the driver (ie a technical problem) then the driver has done nothing wrong, and it would have been logged, right?

And that is after your admission that, in your words, "this is a big no-no".

I'm not asking if you think it should be posted on a public forum, that is a different question

well I'm sure if it was a technical fault the driver would have reported it .
if it was driver error he/she would have thought hope this does not get downloaded and hope there is no want to be driver on here that might make a phone call or post it on a public web site.

 

[TDK]

Interesting, thanks for the explanation Mumrar. Another question though, why would the driver move the reverser to 'neutral'? Is there a reason why a driver wouldn't want to keep the reverser in 'forward', as from what you've said, it seems logical that you'd want to keep in 'forward'.

If you keep it in forward for more than a minute the vigillance goes off, if you need to get out the seat you need it in neutral. I for one always place the reverser in neutral at stations with the straight air brake fully applied but then again I drive locos.

 

[anonymous0101]

Just for the record everyone, Shepherds Bush is on a uphill gradient towards Willesden. If the driver forgot to select the 'Hill Start' button the unit would roll backwards. There is no brake interlock with the doors, just traction interlock.

As for keeping the reverser in forward Mumrar, it is policy when arriving at the station to ensure the Traction Brake Controller is in brake step 3, and the Reverser is in neutral BEFORE opening the doors. However you're obviously not a train driver so you wouldn't know that.

 

[TDK]

Just for the record everyone, Shepherds Bush is on a uphill gradient on the towards Willesden. If the driver forgot to select the Hill Start button the Unit would roll backwards. There is no brake interlock with the doors, just traction interlock.

As for keeping the reverser in forward Mumrar, it is policy when arriving at the station to ensure the Traction Brake Controller is in brake step 3, and the Reverser is in neutral BEFORE opening the doors. However you're obviously not a train driver so you wouldn't know that.

What was the unit as there are not many without brake interlock

 

[anonymous0101]

What was the unit as there are not many without brake interlock

Class 378s do not have brake interlock. However the class 150s do

 

[TDK]

Class 378s do not have brake interlock. However the class 150s do

I believe it is madatory for all stock produced after 1985 to have brake interlock, sliding door sets anyway! So you are telling me if a door is forced open or someone opens the emergency egress the brakes do not apply?

 

[anonymous0101]

I believe it is madatory for all stock produced after 1985 to have brake interlock, sliding door sets anyway! So you are telling me if a door is forced open or someone opens the emergency egress the brakes do not apply?

Class 378s most definitely do not have a brake interlock. If an Egress is pulled the driver can override the brakes for 60 seconds to allow the train to be brought to a stand in a suitable place. I don't know about other types of trains.

 

[TDK]

Class 378s most definitely do not have a brake interlock. If an Egress is pulled the driver can override the brakes for 60 seconds to allow the train to be brought to a stand in a suitable place. I don't know about other types of trains.

Sorry to harp on, so a class 378 is in the station on a down gradient, the driver is in neutral or in forward with the power brake controller in running release and falls asleep say, the train can roll for one minute with doors open? This is a serious design flaw and I am totally flabagasted that this unit ever passed it's safety case!

 

[the sniper]

Units with a single power/brake conroller have a hold over button if this is released prematurely the train will roll back momentarily I am not sure but I think all lorol units apart from 319's or 31x's (if they have them) have a single power/brake controller.

Now that makes sense. Come to think of it, when I had an afternoon on the Central Trains Class 170 simulator while on work experience in 2005, I seem to remember being told to use this.

EDIT: (Damn, that last sentence really was does look like the rail enthusiast equivalent of name dropping, sorry for it coming across that way. )

As for the reverser being put in neutral, when at a stand on the Class 66 this disables the DSD meaning the driver can take his foot of the pedal, I assume this would be similar for a unit.

If you keep it in forward for more than a minute the vigillance goes off, if you need to get out the seat you need it in neutral. I for one always place the reverser in neutral at stations with the straight air brake fully applied but then again I drive locos.

As for keeping the reverser in forward Mumrar, it is policy when arriving at the station to ensure the Traction Brake Controller is in brake step 3, and the Reverser is in neutral BEFORE opening the doors. However you're obviously not a train driver so you wouldn't know that.

Ah, neutral makes perfect sense now, thanks for the answers chaps. I was probably told this on the simulator too, though it's been wiped from my mind over the last 5 years.

 

[Aictos]

As for the reverser being put in neutral, when at a stand on the Class 66 this disables the DSD meaning the driver can take his foot of the pedal, I assume this would be similar for a unit.

I believe you are right, otherwise drivers wouldn't be able to quickly use the toilets at stations if they needed them during a station stop for example.

That is just one example though, I'm sure there are many reasons for drivers to leave their cab, I think and any driver can correct me but if the driver doesn't react to the DSD then a alarm goes off in the signalbox and alerts the signaller unless that just applies to units?

 

[mumrar]

No probs, happy to answer, and driving techniques differ between DOO and with a guard of course, but on both Class 170s and 323s, when having arrived at a station, and only just released the doors, I have had small rollbacks occur. When I asked the driver, in both cases it was to do with the reverser being put to neutral and the combined handle in to 'off'. This allowed the train to roll back with the passenger doors open.

 

[devon_metro]

I believe you are right, otherwise drivers wouldn't be able to quickly use the toilets at stations if they needed them during a station stop for example.

Emg brake then key out surely would get past that problem!

 

[anonymous0101]

Sorry to harp on, so a class 378 is in the station on a down gradient, the driver is in neutral or in forward with the power brake controller in running release and falls asleep say, the train can roll for one minute with doors open? This is a serious design flaw and I am totally flabagasted that this unit ever passed it's safety case!

Right okay I believe if the unit was at a stand and it rolled, that the brakes would come on at 4 mph. As for the other scenario where the egress is pulled, the driver has to press and hold the pass-comm (emergency alarm) override to hold off the brakes for that 60 seconds.

 

[Aictos]

Yes but you forget that once you take the driver's key out, it closes down the driver's desk and the driver would need to set up the cab again, so if the driver is stopped at a station for a few minutes, why do that?

Also, why just iuse the emergency brake - drivers can correct me but it's used for emergency's hence the name, of a driver wanted to have the brakes on surely he would use step 2 or even step 3 if there is one before emergency brake is selected.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Class 365s have a hill start button anyway, 317s, 321s, 319s and 313as don't, not siure on 377s.

Yes but you forget that once you take the driver's key out, it closes down the driver's desk and the driver would need to set up the cab again, so if the driver is stopped at a station for a few minutes, why do that?

Also, why just iuse the emergency brake - drivers can correct me but it's used for emergency's hence the name, of a driver wanted to have the brakes on surely he would use step 2 or even step 3 if there is one before emergency brake is selected.

 

[anonymous0101]

Brake step 3 and Neutral should be enough? You musn't leave a cab with a key in unattended.