My suggestion to remove third rail as a priority

[Katada]

Third rail is outdated and dangerous. Many people on here usually refer to natural selection in a smug way when hearing about these incidents. This isn't some vandal crossing the tracks to damage things.

Third rail ought to be removed and replaced with overhead wires as a priority. With the amount of deaths the third rail causes to both the public and even experienced rail workers why is anyone even making profit running trains from such a system with no attempt to even stop people being killed by it.

 

[Ironside]

Third rail is outdated and dangerous. Many people on here usually refer to natural selection in a smug way when hearing about these incidents. This isn't some vandal crossing the tracks to damage things.

Third rail ought to be removed and replaced with overhead wires as a priority. With the amount of deaths the third rail causes to both the public and even experienced rail workers why is anyone even making profit running trains from such a system with no attempt to even stop people being killed by it.

Do many people die from contact with third rail? I would guess more die at level crossings where work is being done to remove or alter them.

 

[455driver]

Yeah I have to admit the number of bodies I see littering the side of the track on a daily basis is quite disturbing! :roll:

So oh great one what actually is your idea because by what I can see in your opening post you havent actually come up with one not forgetting who is going to pay for it!

 

[telstarbox]

Go on then, how many people died last year from contact with the third rail?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I agree that no more third rail should go in - but a slow steady replacement with AC overhead when equipment gets expired and has to be replaced anyway. Of course this will require DUAL VOLTAGE traction equipment and associated costs.

 

[Michael.Y]

"No attempt to stop people being killed by it"

How about "do not trespass on the railway?"

 

[starrymarkb]

is there much in third rail land that isn't dual voltage ready*. can only think of the 455/6 stock and the 465/6 and one or two of the 458 conversions.

But the size and duration of such a project would be beyond a TOC's ability to carry out within a 7 year contract, and what projects elsewhere would you cancel or postpone to do this conversion within NR's Budget/Resources. The Treasury would probably tell you where to shove extra funding for it.

Still replacement will begin between Basingstoke and Southampton in the next few years. The driver there is Electric Freight - the Desiros will probably be converted at Northam with the job in theory taking a couple of days per set once conversions ramp up.

*Pre-Wired for AC with space for a pantograph and transformer to be fitted (Electrostars even have a concrete block where it should go so the suspension doesn't need reconfiguring!) Modern Traction doesn't care about the supply as the inverters will convert it to variable voltage and frequencies as required.**

**As shown by the Traxx locos on the continent. Buy an AC locomotive from Bombardier and you get a AC/DC Multisystem loco with pans removed and the DC voltages locked out in software!

 

[Marklund]

"No attempt to stop people being killed by it"

How about "do not trespass on the railway?"

Don't have to be trespassing, and slips and trips on track are very common.

And there was a staff fatality on the third rail today

 

[Bald Rick]

Don't have to be trespassing, and slips and trips on track are very common.

And there was a staff fatality on the third rail today

It was Saturday. Very sad.

 

[edwin_m]

But the size and duration of such a project would be beyond a TOC's ability to carry out within a 7 year contract, and what projects elsewhere would you cancel or postpone to do this conversion within NR's Budget/Resources. The Treasury would probably tell you where to shove extra funding for it.

The principle is that third rail would be replaced by OLE on a line-by-line basis as the substations etc came due for renewal anyway, but only on lines where both the trains and the signalling were suitable for conversion without incurring major costs. According to the RSSB study that kicked off this debate, it would cost little more than like-for-like replacement of third rail and associated equipment. There would be savings in the long term from reduced power losses, and removal of traction current limits would create a bit more capacity because trains could accelerate faster.

This is of course pretty theoretical at present and Basingstoke-Southampton is intended to prove it or otherwise in practical terms.

 

[34D]

Will basingstoke-southampton keep its third rail too?

 

[steamybrian]

What will be the cost of rebuilding tunnels and bridges to provide clearance for overhead wires?.
Many of the lines are a tight fit now for 3rd rail stock.- Overground line between New Cross/New Cross Gate- Whitechapel is a good example. Tunnels around Hastings and either side of Tunbridge Wells plus Oxted Tunnel have tight clearances.

 

[Gareth]

I wonder how much all this would cost and what better ways we could spend the money on.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Will basingstoke-southampton keep its third rail too?

I'd have thought they (NR/DfT/SWT) wouldn't want the route being pretty much blockaded for however long it would take to string the wires up and test them, so I imagine the 3rd rail would remain until the wiring is done even though that might make the work itself a little bit more tricky.

 

[Manchester77]

If ordinary OHLE is erected over live 3rd rail would the special dual voltage type of OHLE be required as long as when one was the other wasn't or would the whole section be required to be seen as dual voltage?

 

[BestWestern]

Oh for heaven's sake, just ridiculous. Not entirely certain if this is a serious post or just a spot of leisurely trolling?!

Third rail is perfectly safe, those who are permitted to go near it are very well trained in the hazards it poses and the associated safety procedures if an incident occurs. Anybody else has no business being even remotely close enough to it for there to be any concern whatsoever. The sad fact that a chap happened to fall onto it does not demonstrate that it is unsafe, any more than OHLE would be unsafe if somebody inadvertently came into contact with that in a depot somewhere.

Pumping enormously volatile natural gas into most of the nation's private dwellings is pretty damned dangerous if you ask me, and over the past few years we've had a number of fatal explosions to prove it. Have you submitted some enormously expensive proposals to do away with that as well?!

 

[ess]

My limited experience of 3rd rail is painfully slow trains. Is that due to the traction or something else?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

is there much in third rail land that isn't dual voltage ready*. can only think of the 455/6 stock and the 465/6 and one or two of the 458 conversions.

442s aren't dual voltage ready though they're highly likely to get scrapped soon, the traction motors are on borrowed time

 

[Class172]

My limited experience of 3rd rail is painfully slow trains. Is that due to the traction or something else?

I would have thought that's more down to the nature of the route. The SE of England (where 3rd rail is) has some of the busiest services, often with many stops.

 

[davetheguard]

I had been wondering, before the unfortunate death at the depot this week, what the arrangements at the new Thameslink depot at Three Bridges will be?

I presume only Thameslink dual voltage stock will be maintained there, so is it planned for the depot to be electrified at 25Kv overhead rather than third rail?

Obviously, AC electrification has its own dangers; but at least it's not down on the ground in the same place as the depot's staff.

 

[mirodo]

Go on then, how many people died last year from contact with the third rail?

69 people "electrocuted on the railway" in the last 10 years according to this document, published in August 2012. Of course, some of those will be cases of people coming into contact with OHLE.

 

[Murphyen]

What do you propose to do about the London Underground? Not a lot of room down there...

Equally, what about the DLR. Its contact rail is covered on top to prevent accidents, but is nevertheless a third rail. Would that have to go too?

 

[BestWestern]

Go on then, how many people died last year from contact with the third rail?

69 people "electrocuted on the railway" in the last 10 years according to this document, published in August 2012. Of course, some of those will be cases of people coming into contact with OHLE.

And how many of those people I wonder were trained, authorised personnel who fell victim to the evil third rail, as opposed to other individials who had no business to be anywhere near it?! The number of people hit and killed on the railway in that time is very much greater, perhaps we ought to come up with an alternative to running those beastly trains at ground level were they are so very dangerous!

 

[jopsuk]

Third rail should be replaced. But not as a priority. In many places it will expensive to do so- bridge and tunnel clearances may be very tight.

I am interested as to what electrification will be used between Ashford and Ore if the "Javelins on Marshlink" proposal were to go ahead. OHL wouldn't actually be a bad idea.

As most of the third-rail-only stock operates services closer to London, I can actually see the outer parts going OHL before the inners. Eg once Basingstoke-Southampton is done I'd expect extension to Weymouth (and Lymington) to be one of the next projects, then the lines to Portsmouth. From there, for the south west divsioon, I'd expect the Portsmouth direct and Woking-Basingstoke to be the next big stage.

On the south eastern division, I'd expect the routes that are used by Class 395 to be the priority- though in north Kent this will cause problems with class 465/466.

In the south central division, it will be routes with through trains on Thameslink.

Something I was wondering on Monday but didn't ask my guide- is there sufficient height in the Thames Tunnel to allow the ELL to go OHL?

 

[W230]

Third rail should be replaced. But not as a priority. In many places it will expensive to do so- bridge and tunnel clearances may be very tight.

IMHO only due to its power limiting factor not due to a supposed safety case.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I like third rail, since it means you don't get all that knitting in the way when taking pictures.

I would have thought that's more down to the nature of the route. The SE of England (where 3rd rail is) has some of the busiest services, often with many stops.

Indeed. There's little reason to run services along the congested Brighton main line at 100 mph if it means reducing the number of the paths available.

 

[Aictos]

Rather then worry needless about 3rd rail which is no more dangerous then OHLE, more thought ought to go to electrifying diesel islands like the North Downs and Uckfield lines with 3rd rail to cascade existing DMUs elsewhere with EMUs being used instead which I believe leads to lower operating costs being electricified?

These routes mentioned ought to be 3rd rail thoughout as extensions of the existing 3rd rail as I very much doubt they will be converted to OHLE within the next decade.

Yes 3rd rail us ineffective compared to OLHE but still like I've said above that removing diesel islands ought to lead to cheaper operating costs and as such is more cost effective.

 

[87 027]

I may be mistaken, but I thought top contact 3rd rail operated under a derogation and no new installations were permitted?

 

[swt_passenger]

Will basingstoke-southampton keep its third rail too?

Not if the words 'replaced with' used in the HLOS take their normal meaning.

It is generally assumed there'll be a period during the project when both systems will be live, but the DC won't be retained long term.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Rather then worry needless about 3rd rail which is no more dangerous then OHLE, more thought ought to go to electrifying diesel islands like the North Downs and Uckfield lines with 3rd rail to cascade existing DMUs elsewhere with EMUs being used instead which I believe leads to lower operating costs being electricified?

These routes mentioned ought to be 3rd rail thoughout as extensions of the existing 3rd rail as I very much doubt they will be converted to OHLE within the next decade.

Yes 3rd rail us ineffective compared to OLHE but still like I've said above that removing diesel islands ought to lead to cheaper operating costs and as such is more cost effective.

Rural diesel lines in the Southern region tend to be far away from electricity sources, which puts 750V DC at a severe disadvantage compared to 25kV AC. The cost of all the additional feeder stations needed on DC to make up for its inefficiencies would be very much higher than the cost of providing a smaller number of AC ones. Then, since almost all stock in the SE can now have AC capability retrofitted, there would be little extra operational cost involved in AC electrification. The cost of bridge works and the like would be higher for AC but it would still be a better, more cost-effective option overall to bite the bullet and use AC from the start. The 'Javelins on Marshlink' idea appears to use AC OHLE for these reasons.