New Chester to Leeds service

[absolutelymilk]

The hourly Chester to Leeds service is now in the timetable, 53 minutes Chester to Man Vic and 1h 24m from Vic to Leeds.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...18/05/23/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

I wonder how this will affect loadings on the ATW service and the Piccadilly to Chester via Altrincham, (which incidentally is also being sped up slightly from May)?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This service connects quite well at Chester with the ATW Holyhead services (currently you have a c30 minute wait to/from the Manchester ATW).
So I'd expect Bangor folk to use the new services east of Chester, Llandudno staying with the ATW.
We'll have to see how the two operators manage connections at Chester, if it's like at Crewe and Warrington with VT they won't care much.
However I doubt ATW (or its replacement) are going to market the connection.
Through Northern-set fares to Yorkshire might be interesting though.

It should spread the load for Chester passengers, although Victoria won't be as popular as Oxford Road/Piccadilly.
With the proposed stopping patterns, the limited stop Northern service (hopefully on better trains) wins over the ATW stopper.
It's very difficult to gauge demand across Manchester and especially to Bradford, with no through services having run for a long time (if ever, in some cases).
The Warrington-Leeds traffic on TPE should transfer to the new service.
And what are we to make of the Ellesmere Port service, a single train diverted away from Chester at a peak time, causing long gaps in the Chester-Leeds service?
Seems perverse to me.
The new service gives connections with VT at Warrington, but they are not much use - longish waits both ways, but will be handy if you miss the short ATW connection (again).

 

[northwichcat]

I don't think we really need a new thread on this. This has been discussed in the May 2018 timetable thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-timetable-plan-for-may-2018.147558/

While as things stand services appearing on RTT/OTT for after the next timetable change are subject to change due to electrification delays and the 769s being unlikely to arrive.

 

[backontrack]

The Ellesmere Port service: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y23161/2018/05/23/advanced

It doesn't operate in the opposite direction.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Ellesmere Port service: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y23161/2018/05/23/advanced
It doesn't operate in the opposite direction.

I don't think the current data on RTT is trustworthy yet (if the service starts at all in May).
There is a gap in eastbound Leeds services from Chester (0617 to 0820).
The franchise commitment was for a peak EP service in both directions.

 

[frodshamfella]

The Ellesmere Port service: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y23161/2018/05/23/advanced

It doesn't operate in the opposite direction.

I guess there must be some sort of return on the Ellesmere Port line, could it be just to Helsby ?

Its not really an improvement to the line, which I go on quite often, the service is poor now, but I have noticed an increase in usage, even passengers boarding at Ince & Elton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess there must be some sort of return on the Ellesmere Port line, could it be just to Helsby ?

Its not really an improvement to the line, which I go on quite often, the service is poor now, but I have noticed an increase in usage, even passengers boarding at Ince & Elton.

It really needs an extension from Ellesmere Port to Helsby of Merseyrail, even if only 1tph out of two, probably requiring one additional unit on the Ellesmere Port circuit. Perhaps batteries might help for this, as I'm sure I recall one reason why it's not done being a concern about sparks from the third rail (which in icy weather can be fairly large) with the oil refinery. Stanlow and Thornton will probably never be much use (particularly now Oil Sites Road is closed), but perhaps oil refinery workers might use it.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I wonder how this will affect loadings on the Piccadilly to Chester via Altrincham, (which incidentally is also being sped up slightly from May)?

Little to nothing as most of the loading is from Northwich stations onwards.

 

[frodshamfella]

It really needs an extension from Ellesmere Port to Helsby of Merseyrail, even if only 1tph out of two, probably requiring one additional unit on the Ellesmere Port circuit. Perhaps batteries might help for this, as I'm sure I recall one reason why it's not done being a concern about sparks from the third rail (which in icy weather can be fairly large) with the oil refinery. Stanlow and Thornton will probably never be much use (particularly now Oil Sites Road is closed), but perhaps oil refinery workers might use it.

Yes agree, should be operated by Merseyrail, would really make more sense. Ince and Elton, has had quite a bit of new housing of late, so a "proper" service is whats really needed.

 

[Philip]

Perhaps a better idea for Northern would be to just run the peak services as Chester-Manchester shuttles and vice versa, formed as portion trains with half coming from and going to Ellesmere Port, forming and splitting at Warrington or Frodsham. Not running them through the Calder Valley would free up a good number of trains to allow extra trains services for Ellesmere Port, whilst keeping the important Chester-Manchester flow at an hourly rate (half-hourly when including the W&B service). It would also free up a few units to strengthen other remaining Calder Valley services.

 

[northwichcat]

I guess there must be some sort of return on the Ellesmere Port line, could it be just to Helsby ?

The requirement is to run:

AM
Warrington-Ellesmere Port
E Port - Leeds

PM
Leeds - E Port
E Port - Leeds

As has been posted numerous times there are still missing services and it could be that planned services are postponed altogether due to rolling stock shortages.

 

[Philip]

The requirement is to run:

AM
Warrington-Ellesmere Port
E Port - Leeds

PM
Leeds - E Port
E Port - Leeds

As has been posted numerous times there are still missing services and it could be that planned services are postponed altogether due to rolling stock shortages.

Ensuring there are no gaps on the Chester-Manchester run makes a lot more sense than making room for direct Ellesmere Port-Leeds services, hence why if something has to make way, it should be on the Calder Valley since this will have four long distance services per hour even without the Chester service. Before the additional peak time W&B service is brought up, this needs to be in addition rather than to plug any gaps in the Northern service.

 

[frodshamfella]

The requirement is to run:

AM
Warrington-Ellesmere Port
E Port - Leeds

PM
Leeds - E Port
E Port - Leeds

As has been posted numerous times there are still missing services and it could be that planned services are postponed altogether due to rolling stock shortages.

Thanks for info, I've only just seen this post.

 

[158756]

Ensuring there are no gaps on the Chester-Manchester run makes a lot more sense than making room for direct Ellesmere Port-Leeds services, hence why if something has to make way, it should be on the Calder Valley since this will have four long distance services per hour even without the Chester service. Before the additional peak time W&B service is brought up, this needs to be in addition rather than to plug any gaps in the Northern service.

The Chester service is just an extension of existing Calder Valley trains - I don't see why existing services should be withdrawn to run extra peak services to Chester. Anything would have more use than the Ellesmere Port line, but the only station affected by the diversion is Chester, and are 2tph, yes including peak times, really overcrowded solely with passengers for Chester?

The sensible thing would be to have extended Merseyrail to Helsby rather than Ellesmere Port, but now Ellesmere Port is done Helsby and Elton will struggle to make a business case alone .

 

[Philip]

The Chester service is just an extension of existing Calder Valley trains - I don't see why existing services should be withdrawn to run extra peak services to Chester. Anything would have more use than the Ellesmere Port line, but the only station affected by the diversion is Chester, and are 2tph, yes including peak times, really overcrowded solely with passengers for Chester?

The sensible thing would be to have extended Merseyrail to Helsby rather than Ellesmere Port, but now Ellesmere Port is done Helsby and Elton will struggle to make a business case alone .

The Calder Valley is getting an additional service. Currently it is two semi-fast per hour from Manchester and a stopping service, this will increase to three semi-fast trains per hour as well as the stopping service. Manchester to Calder Valley and to West Yorkshire is already well served by Northern and TPE, I just feel the emphasis now should be on improving things towards smaller cities and towns west of Manchester; and in this case the priority should be on the Manchester-Chester corridor, not the Calder Valley.

 

[158756]

The Calder Valley is getting an additional service. Currently it is two semi-fast per hour from Manchester and a stopping service, this will increase to three semi-fast trains per hour as well as the stopping service. Manchester to Calder Valley and to West Yorkshire is already well served by Northern and TPE, I just feel the emphasis now should be on improving things towards smaller cities and towns west of Manchester; and in this case the priority should be on the Manchester-Chester corridor, not the Calder Valley.

Not this year it isn't. There are plans for a third semi fast (which really are not that fast) in 2020 or whenever it actually happens. And Bradford, a city at least three times the size of Chester, would dispute the notion that it is well served.

 

[Philip]

Not this year it isn't. There are plans for a third semi fast (which really are not that fast) in 2020 or whenever it actually happens. And Bradford, a city at least three times the size of Chester, would dispute the notion that it is well served.

I would say there is a bigger market between Chester and Manchester than there is between Bradford and Manchester; the latter is a much further distance too.

 

[Spartacus]

I would say there is a bigger market between Chester and Manchester than there is between Bradford and Manchester; the latter is a much further distance too.

On the most direct route I don't think there's much more than a mile in it. You'd be surprised at the market for Bradford to Manchester, just look at the connection of the M606 and M62, offering a westbound link from Bradford, not an eastbound one towards Leeds.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The requirement is to run:
AM
Warrington-Ellesmere Port
E Port - Leeds

PM
Leeds - E Port
E Port - Leeds
As has been posted numerous times there are still missing services and it could be that planned services are postponed altogether due to rolling stock shortages.

Thanks for info, I've only just seen this post.

The current RTT data shows an early Liverpool-Warrington-Ellesmere Port, then a shuttle to Helsby and back, then...nothing.
I guess all will become clear soon.

 

[northwichcat]

On the most direct route I don't think there's much more than a mile in it. You'd be surprised at the market for Bradford to Manchester, just look at the connection of the M606 and M62, offering a westbound link from Bradford, not an eastbound one towards Leeds.

Bradford has 2tph to Manchester as it is and the combined annual usage of both stations in Bradford is 5m for journeys starting and ending there and 0.1m interchanges. At Chester the annual usage of the single station if 4.6m with 0.8m interchanges so overall Chester is a busier station than both of Bradford's stations combined.

 

[northwichcat]

The current RTT data shows an early Liverpool-Warrington-Ellesmere Port, then a shuttle to Helsby and back, then...nothing.
I guess all will become clear soon.

There's quiet a few in the system where only part of a service is shown. Presumably where they have an approved path for part of the service but not the full service.

 

[158756]

Bradford has 2tph to Manchester as it is and the combined annual usage of both stations in Bradford is 5m for journeys starting and ending there and 0.1m interchanges. At Chester the annual usage of the single station if 4.6m with 0.8m interchanges so overall Chester is a busier station than both of Bradford's stations combined.

How much demand is there for Northern services though? Merseyrail manages to extract millions of passengers from loads of stations that'd be nowhere near those levels anywhere else outside the South East, plus Chester has the big attraction of a proper London service. Is it anything special once you remove those routes?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Bradford has 2tph to Manchester as it is and the combined annual usage of both stations in Bradford is 5m for journeys starting and ending there and 0.1m interchanges. At Chester the annual usage of the single station if 4.6m with 0.8m interchanges so overall Chester is a busier station than both of Bradford's stations combined.

Yes, but how many will want to go Chester-Rochdale or Bradford-Warrington (I don't think either route has had a through service before).
Also I suspect Chester-Leeds will be quicker changing to TPE at Victoria.

 

[northwichcat]

How much demand is there for Northern services though? Merseyrail manages to extract millions of passengers from loads of stations that'd be nowhere near those levels anywhere else outside the South East, plus Chester has the big attraction of a proper London service. Is it anything special once you remove those routes?

The arguments you make for Merseyrail also apply to the services operating to Bradford Forster Square, just look at Steeton and Silsden - a station serving two tiny villages getting 4tph and 850,000 journeys per annum. In fact it applies more to Bradford as some stations have a service to Bradford but not one to Leeds, everywhere which has a Merseyrail service to Chester has one at least as frequent to Liverpool.

Whatever arguments you make about Bradford being great, it doesn't compare to Chester. Bradford gets 650,000 tourists visiting a year, the zoo in Chester gets 3 times that number and the total number of visitors in Chester a year is much higher than annual usage at Chester station.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, but how many will want to go Chester-Rochdale or Bradford-Warrington (I don't think either route has had a through service before).
Also I suspect Chester-Leeds will be quicker changing to TPE at Victoria.

It was originally proposed that there would be a semi-fast North Wales to Yorkshire (either Hull or Bradford) and an all-stops Chester-Warrington-Manchester Airport service but some politicians in Wales kicked up a fuss about it - not wanting TPE or Northern taking over a Welsh service and wanting a Manchester Airport service.

 

[gazthomas]

This takes me back to North Wales to North East services in the 1980's. Could we ever see direct services from Holyhead to Newcastle, Scarborough or Hull again? I doubt it!

 

[yorksrob]

Will there be any decent Yorkshire - Wales fares on this through service, I wonder.

 

[faltskog36abba]

In reply to Lnw, Why would Victoria not be as popular a destination over oxford road?. There is massive investment going on around the area with office blocks and apartments, There is also the shopping district as well as the nightlife-Printworks and the Arena, Now the new railway chord has opened, It will be a quick change and in oxford road in 7 minutes.

 

[Philip]

This takes me back to North Wales to North East services in the 1980's. Could we ever see direct services from Holyhead to Newcastle, Scarborough or Hull again? I doubt it!

Reinstating regular direct Crewe to North Wales services is more of a priority than connecting to Yorkshire and the North East. The Cardiff-Holyhead is the big waste of a path along the Coast line but everyone knows that service isn't going anywhere.

Regarding Rochdale-Chester and Bradford-Warrington links; is the demand for either of these that big?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

In reply to Lnw, Why would Victoria not be as popular a destination over oxford road?. There is massive investment going on around the area with office blocks and apartments, There is also the shopping district as well as the nightlife-Printworks and the Arena, Now the new railway chord has opened, It will be a quick change and in oxford road in 7 minutes.

The response to an ATW consultation wanted the Chester/N Wales trains to continue to Picc (this was when there was some uncertainty about the terminus, and before the separate Victoria service was announced).
Times may change, but having persuaded everybody over several decades to go to Picc (for connections), people are going to be reluctant to go to Victoria.
Anyway, they now have a choice, and tramwise they are very similar.
Personally I find Victoria still drab and full of old and smelly diesels, and it isn't a centre in the way Piccadilly is.
Life may be different with TPE passing through frequently, and with all the new Northern services.
Oxford Road is a destination in its own right, and is very popular, despite the station being down at heel.