New Chester to Leeds service

[Grumpy]

In fact it applies more to Bradford as some stations have a service to Bradford but not one to Leeds, .

I cant think of any station with a service to Bradford but not to Leeds. The other way round certainly

 

[clagmonster]

Baildon is the only one I think.

 

[Llandudno]

Not sure that the new Victoria to Chester ‘fast’ service will be much good for Manchester Arena events, the last train back to Chester is not much after 9pm!

 

[pemma]

Personally I find Victoria still drab and full of old and smelly diesels, and it isn't a centre in the way Piccadilly is.

319s do run to Victoria and if Network Rail and Porterbrook weren't behind schedule with wiring and 769s respectively the Chester-Leeds service would have started at the same time as numerous services started to enter Victoria on electric power. I'm also not sure diesel pollution levels will be higher at Victoria than at Piccadilly, while Piccadilly has more electric services it has significantly more departures.

 

[pemma]

Not sure that the new Victoria to Chester ‘fast’ service will be much good for Manchester Arena events, the last train back to Chester is not much after 9pm!

You'll be able to get a direct train to Victoria before the event and tickets are issued to Manchester STNs not Manchester Piccadilly or Victoria so it won't be any less convenient than it is now to get back afterwards. It's unfortunate that the Scarborough-Victoria-Airport arrives at Oxford Rd just too late to connect with the ATW service and the same with the Newcastle-Liverpool service which will call at Newton-le-Willows.

 

[driver_m]

When you get threads like this, someone always puts the question. "is there such a demand for trains between A and B?" This one is no different, but the key areas that benefit from this extension is Warrington and St Helens. The demand is clearly there as anyone who has seen some of the peak departures from these stations can testify, and there is also a clear plan to make Newton let Willows a railhead for the area with the improved facilities. The service provides a direct link again to the Calder Valley that hasn't been there for some time. A few minutes from a critical part of the M6 and M62. It could be a genuinely great idea for a service .

 

[Flyingsprinter]

What does Philip have against the Calder valley and Bradford? Did someone from there do something bad to him once?
I live in the Calder valley and I like to think we are nice folk. I do think a Bradford to hull extension would’ve been better then to Chester though.
The only reasons I can think why there is going to be a Chester to Bradford service is as follows: Bradford wants more through services to other northern cities, Manchester and Chester want an extra fast service, they aren’t many/any available paths to run this service into Piccadilly so it has to go into Victoria, with increased number of service at Victoria they don’t want services terminating as it increases dwell times, a way around this is to link 2 services together (such as Southport-Blackburn services for example) in this case linking a Calder valley service to the Manchester to Chester service. It doesn’t have much to do about what demand is from Bradford to Chester as that’s not the point. At Victoria the service will pick up a completely different set of passengers. The point of this service is mainly as it ticks all the right box’s.

 

[Chester1]

What does Philip have against the Calder valley and Bradford? Did someone from there do something bad to him once?
I live in the Calder valley and I like to think we are nice folk. I do think a Bradford to hull extension would’ve been better then to Chester though.
The only reasons I can think why there is going to be a Chester to Bradford service is as follows: Bradford wants more through services to other northern cities, Manchester and Chester want an extra fast service, they aren’t many/any available paths to run this service into Piccadilly so it has to go into Victoria, with increased number of service at Victoria they don’t want services terminating as it increases dwell times, a way around this is to link 2 services together (such as Southport-Blackburn services for example) in this case linking a Calder valley service to the Manchester to Chester service. It doesn’t have much to do about what demand is from Bradford to Chester as that’s not the point. At Victoria the service will pick up a completely different set of passengers. The point of this service is mainly as it ticks all the right box’s.

I agree with that assessment, Chester definitely needs another fast service to Manchester to relieve the ATW service. The next W&B franchise ITT has bizarrely not been made public but its likely that services to Manchester are a low priority. The current service lacks capacity to the extent that seat reservations can no longer be made, if they could be then there would be virtually no seats available for walk on passengers. I suspect the next franchise holder will use the Northern service and Holyhead-Cardiff going hourly to downgrade Llandudno to Manchester to 2 car 175s. However, combined with 2 car 158/195 Victoria service that would still be a 25% increase in capacity. I suspect some through journeys have been estimated but they will only be a side benefit. The choice of Victoria is inevitable for Calder Valley services and nearly inevitable for new Chat Moss services because of the congestion through the Castlefield corridor. It will certainly be an improvement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree with that assessment, Chester definitely needs another fast service to Manchester to relieve the ATW service. The next W&B franchise ITT has bizarrely not been made public but its likely that services to Manchester are a low priority. The current service lacks capacity to the extent that seat reservations can no longer be made, if they could be then there would be virtually no seats available for walk on passengers.

That would be completely solved by running it as 2 x 3-car Class 175. No, there isn't the stock to do that now, but then there isn't the stock to double the frequency either, and if you did demand would increase so you would probably need at least 2 x 2-car every 30 minutes.

 

[Camden]

The busiest services run as 4 x mark II coaches, I have used this. From what I could observe a better service could be offered by not stopping at Newton Le Willows, with this instead getting served by a dogbox running a couple of minutes behind. Longer distance commuters are sacrificing comfort and speed to benefit short distance commuters on the edge of Liverpool who get home in record time.

 

[pemma]

The busiest services run as 4 x mark II coaches, I have used this. From what I could observe a better service could be offered by not stopping at Newton Le Willows, with this instead getting served by a dogbox running a couple of minutes behind. Longer distance commuters are sacrificing comfort and speed to benefit short distance commuters on the edge of Liverpool who get home in record time.

Not sure what exactly you mean there. By a dogbox do you mean a single 153 and do you mean it would run Chester-Manchester or that it would start at Newton-le-Willows (making some journeys more difficult)? A single 153 would be a waste of paths and replacing the 4 car set with a 5 or 6 car set would be much more efficient. Replacing the slam door set with something more modern would do a lot more to improve journey times than skipping a station.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are of course plenty of 319s standing around which could provide peak-busting services on the Chat Moss/Warrington BQ routes.
Things will also change in May(?) when TPE provides intermediate services on the route.
A long-standing problem with ATW/Northern services east of Earlestown is the way they chase each other all the way to/from Manchester Airport, then nothing for 50 minutes.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Not sure that the new Victoria to Chester ‘fast’ service will be much good for Manchester Arena events, the last train back to Chester is not much after 9pm!

There is a 22.03 service to Chester on a Sunday only which I find bizarre.

 

[driver_m]

The busiest services run as 4 x mark II coaches, I have used this. From what I could observe a better service could be offered by not stopping at Newton Le Willows, with this instead getting served by a dogbox running a couple of minutes behind. Longer distance commuters are sacrificing comfort and speed to benefit short distance commuters on the edge of Liverpool who get home in record time.

Quite clearly not from round here as NLW is not Liverpool, it's not even St Helens. If you want pass comment on a place, at least get your geography right first .

 

[SeanM1997]

What I would like to see is 2 carriages between Chester and Warrington, and 2 carriages between Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge and Warrington - attach/detach at Warrington Bank Quay, and then continue to Leeds as a 4 car set. It would give an additional hourly service between Crewe and Warrington, direct service between Crewe and Yorkshire, and mean passengers from Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge can make northbound connections at Warrington instead of at present having to go south to Crewe to go to north through their stations to Warrington. Why does anyone think this hasn't been considered?

 

[YorkshireBear]

What I would like to see is 2 carriages between Chester and Warrington, and 2 carriages between Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge and Warrington - attach/detach at Warrington Bank Quay, and then continue to Leeds as a 4 car set. It would give an additional hourly service between Crewe and Warrington, direct service between Crewe and Yorkshire, and mean passengers from Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge can make northbound connections at Warrington instead of at present having to go south to Crewe to go to north through their stations to Warrington. Why does anyone think this hasn't been considered?

Because it adds a slow DMU on a stopping service to the two track WCML. Splitting and joining on the WCML station at Warrington also introduces significant performance risk.

Not disputing the need for such a service but a Crewe - Preston EMU would be much better.

 

[driver_m]

Because it adds a slow DMU on a stopping service to the two track WCML. Splitting and joining on the WCML station at Warrington also introduces significant performance risk.

Not disputing the need for such a service but a Crewe - Preston EMU would be much better.

St Helens junc - central reopening would make crewe - preston a great service to serve a number of large poulations enroute.

 

[YorkshireBear]

St Helens junc - central reopening would make crewe - preston a great service to serve a number of large poulations enroute.

I think we are now getting wildly off topic so probably worth setting up a seperate thread if you actually want to discuss that particular topic.

 

[driver_m]

True .back to topic .Is the train to e port a parliamentary service? Just wandering if it might have been better doing some kind of portion working to ensure a proper hourly service to/from Chester (splitting the units at Warrington). Obvs there's the issue of stock, staff etc, but it does seem odd that the Chester service misses a couple of peaks when it could do with it . Hopefully the E. port - Helsby route would be another good trial route for a battery EMU service with the new Merseyrail stock.

 

[pemma]

True .back to topic .Is the train to e port a parliamentary service? Just wandering if it might have been better doing some kind of portion working to ensure a proper hourly service to/from Chester (splitting the units at Warrington). Obvs there's the issue of stock, staff etc, but it does seem odd that the Chester service misses a couple of peaks when it could do with it . Hopefully the E. port - Helsby route would be another good trial route for a battery EMU service with the new Merseyrail stock.

The 'missing services' in the Chester-Leeds timetable are at times when ATW run their peak time extras. Hopefully they'll be good connections for Victoria services at Newton-le-Willows at those times.

 

[Chester1]

True .back to topic .Is the train to e port a parliamentary service? Just wandering if it might have been better doing some kind of portion working to ensure a proper hourly service to/from Chester (splitting the units at Warrington). Obvs there's the issue of stock, staff etc, but it does seem odd that the Chester service misses a couple of peaks when it could do with it . Hopefully the E. port - Helsby route would be another good trial route for a battery EMU service with the new Merseyrail stock.

The 'missing services' in the Chester-Leeds timetable are at times when ATW run their peak time extras. Hopefully they'll be good connections for Victoria services at Newton-le-Willows at those times.

The other reason for running from Ellesmere Port will be to provide a service to Manchester that won't arrive into Runcorn East and Warrington Bank Quay with most seats taken by Chester passengers.

 

[yorkie]

Just a reminder this thread is specifically to discuss the new Chester to Leeds service only.

For general discussion regarding the new Northern timetable please use Northern timetable plan for May 2018

If anyone wishes to create a thread with their ideas to re-open a line/curve/chord and/or to introduce a new service that is not actually planned, please feel free to post your ideas in a new thread (if there isn't one already), ensuring that the title of the thread makes it clear it is a personal suggestion.

 

[KenW]

Not this year it isn't. There are plans for a third semi fast (which really are not that fast) in 2020 or whenever it actually happens. And Bradford, a city at least three times the size of Chester, would dispute the notion that it is well served.

The Calder Valley also has another service but ‘in 2 halves’, ie Man Vic to Todmorden served by Wigan-Blackburn services and Hebden Bridge to Leeds by Blackpool/Preston-York services.

 

[StuartH]

The busiest services run as 4 x mark II coaches, I have used this. From what I could observe a better service could be offered by not stopping at Newton Le Willows, with this instead getting served by a dogbox running a couple of minutes behind. Longer distance commuters are sacrificing comfort and speed to benefit short distance commuters on the edge of Liverpool who get home in record time.

Especially annoying when the 2 x 2 175 turns up as just 2 units and North Wales passengers cannot even get on. Newton le Willows my ar5e!

 

[Chester1]

Especially annoying when the 2 x 2 175 turns up as just 2 units and North Wales passengers cannot even get on. Newton le Willows my ar5e!

When the Northern service starts I expect that ATW or its successor will replace the Mark III set with just a 2 coach 175 and run all Llandudno to Manchester services as 2 coach units. The whole fleet is very stretched and they won't miss an opportunity to transfer customers to Northern and strengthen other services or introduce new ones. It would help to provide the hourly Holyhead-Cardiff service that the WG is so keen on. Until passengers adapt and start using the Northern service the Llandudno service will be extremely crowded.

 

[Starmill]

Will there be any decent Yorkshire - Wales fares on this through service, I wonder.

I would imagine there will be some AP Northern Only fares to Chester. The service doesn't go to Wales though. There are already some 'AP Manchester' Advance tickets from Yorkshire to North Wales, including from Normanton all the way to Holyhead starting at £25.

 

[yorksrob]

I would imagine there will be some AP Northern Only fares to Chester. The service doesn't go to Wales though. There are already some 'AP Manchester' Advance tickets from Yorkshire to North Wales, including from Normanton all the way to Holyhead starting at £25.

That's interesting to know - I've never considered travelling to Holyhead.

 

[Parallel]

I can see this has been entered into RTT for May, and I also saw a Northern 158 at Chester yesterday that departed empty, test run perhaps?

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes, but how many will want to go Chester-Rochdale or Bradford-Warrington (I don't think either route has had a through service before).
Also I suspect Chester-Leeds will be quicker changing to TPE at Victoria.

Well chalk me down for the Bradford-Warrington section, as I for one will be using it!

Baildon is the only one I think.

And this is where my Warrington services will be starting! The loss of a direct Leeds-Warrington service has been felt by quite a few I suspect, travelling as I do quite regularly to Warrington there were often reservations between the two on TPE services, so my wife & I were far from alone. So the new Northern service will be slightly more convenient, if potentially slightly longer timing-wise as changing at Manchester onto Northern / EMT services for Warrington is a nightmare as I'm sure everyone will agree.

The other aspect about this service not mentioned in the thread is the possible opening up of more tourist traffic in towards Chester & North Wales from Bradford & the Calder Valley. It has the potential to grow a bit, and at a time when things might get challenging economically across the country, these kind of links might just help local economies a bit more. As always with the rail network, there's more to it than current demand alone.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Looking at the times on RTT, the westbound Chester/Ellesmere Port service is the extension of the current xx38 from Leeds to Man Vic via the Calder Valley.
Eastbound it takes over the path of the current xx20 Victoria-Leeds.
It's not so easy to work out where the Calder Valley-Liverpool service will come from (when it starts), as Southport is in the mix of current destinations.