New Conditions Of Carriage (May 2012)

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Solent&Wessex

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I have noted today that a new version of the National Conditions of Carriage applies from 20th May 2012. Sadly I do not have an electronic copy, or a link to the document, but I have got a paper copy.

Principle changes appear to be the style of wording - lots of text is made much simpler and easier to understand, whilst the meaning stays the same.

There is a new "summary" section at the start which sets out, clearly, the rights - and obligations - of passengers.

A number of conditions have been amended so that it is made clear that customers can expect to be informed of relevant restrictions when enquiring or buying tickets, or that they can expect to be given accurate and correct information. If you ask, a ticket seller must tell you whether the route you intend to use is permitted, or not, with your ticket.

Condition 6 regarding transfer of tickets has been amended to make clear that unless a ticket is issued to a named person, it can be used by the person who bought it or anyone on whose behalf it was bought. It states that tickets cannot be resold for a value. It also mentions tickets purchased by a company being valid for anyone employed by that company, unless the ticket carries a name.

Luggage conditions have been amended to make various aspects clearer. There is also a note that luggage occupying seats required for passengers can now be charged for, irrespective of whether that luggage is within the passenger’s luggage allowance. It also now states that unless the passenger is disabled or has special needs, they must be capable of carrying their own luggage.

I am sure there are other changes.

The language used is a lot clearer.
 
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mikeg

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Good to see that contrary to what EMT were saying they haven't removed the rule whereby split ticketing is valid at a station where the train doesn't stop at where one ticket is a season and the other not.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Good to see that contrary to what EMT were saying they haven't removed the rule whereby split ticketing is valid at a station where the train doesn't stop at where one ticket is a season and the other not.

That has not been removed and is still there.
 

GadgetMan

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If you ask, a ticket seller must tell you whether the route you intend to use is permitted, or not, with your ticket.

This is ok when buying/asking at a ticket office. But onboard staff do not have access to the routing guide so will find it difficult to answer specific questions. Another well thought through idea, although in principle I can't fault it.
 

Solent&Wessex

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This is ok when buying/asking at a ticket office. But onboard staff do not have access to the routing guide so will find it difficult to answer specific questions. .

Very true. The Avantix Mobile journey planner just gives the quickest route, irrespective of whether it is valid or not, and the software offers no correlation between fares and routes - indeed it is often not possible to actually read the routeing on a ticket until you have sold and printed it - by which time it is too late. It probably won't be too difficult to make it do what is needed, but that requires somebody to do something about it.
 

wintonian

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And I assume that there is no requirement that when you are advised whether a route is valid or not that the information provided has to be factually correct?
 

All Line Rover

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Excellent. The clearer wording should help to clarify some of the more ambiguous parts of the NRCoC, and I am relieved that no passenger rights have been removed. A big thumbs up from me. :D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A number of conditions have been amended so that it is made clear that customers can expect to be informed of relevant restrictions when enquiring or buying tickets, or that they can expect to be given accurate and correct information. If you ask, a ticket seller must tell you whether the route you intend to use is permitted, or not, with your ticket.

In theory, this sounds great. In practice, I have my doubts! :lol: I do hope TOC's won't start asking staff to read (and understand) the Routeing Guide. Just imagine it: "Hmm... I never realised a ticket from A to B was valid via Z. Maybe I should tell ATOC about it." :|
 
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LexyBoy

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How are on-train staff supposed to know that a passenger was told a route was valid by the booking office clerk rather than the now-legendary bloke on the platform?

Otherwise sounds positive (i.e. nothing much changed). I'm sure everyone will have fun picking holes in the new wording and finding out where ambiguities have been closed and opened.
 

wintonian

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Excellent. The clearer wording should help to clarify some of the more ambiguous parts of the NRCoC, and I am relieved that no passenger rights have been removed. A big thumbs up from me. :D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


In theory, this sounds great. In practice, I have my doubts! :lol: I do hope TOC's won't start asking staff to read (and understand) the Routeing Guide. Just imagine it: "Hmm... I never realised a ticket from A to B was valid via Z. Maybe I should tell ATOC about it." :|

More importantly can you imagine the queues that would result every time a route was checked and the debates over what the RG doesn’t say?
 

yorksrob

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Does it say anything about splitting tickets at a station where the train doesn't stop if one ticket is a PTE metrocard ?
 

Flamingo

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Interesting about charging for luggage occupying seats. I'll be interested to see how that one is worded (and if anybody implements it - I think the answer will be no).
 

wintonian

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Interesting about charging for luggage occupying seats. I'll be interested to see how that one is worded (and if anybody implements it - I think the answer will be no).

Personally I would like to see it used, however I suspect chinging a PAX for having a suitcase on a seat Wil be more hassle than it's worth for most considering said PAX is hardly likely to thank you for it.
 

island

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Interesting about charging for luggage occupying seats. I'll be interested to see how that one is worded (and if anybody implements it - I think the answer will be no).

The threat of charging someone up should be enough.
 

yorkie

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Does it say anything about splitting tickets at a station where the train doesn't stop if one ticket is a PTE metrocard ?
We've been assured there are no changes to Condition 19, so it is reasonable to assume that a PTE product remains as not a season ticket for the purposes of that Condition.
 

cuccir

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Interesting about charging for luggage occupying seats. I'll be interested to see how that one is worded (and if anybody implements it - I think the answer will be no).

Potentially though it should give guards/TMs some backing should they want to charge a passenger who is being unreasonable and preventing others from sitting - ideally it's a weapon where needed, but won't be used in most circumstances?
 

Solent&Wessex

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We've been assured there are no changes to Condition 19, so it is reasonable to assume that a PTE product remains as not a season ticket for the purposes of that Condition.

There appear to be no changes to Condition 19. Therefore PTE tickets are NOT season tickets for the purposes of split ticketing.

Interesting about charging for luggage occupying seats. I'll be interested to see how that one is worded (and if anybody implements it - I think the answer will be no).

It says: "You may take a single item of hand luggage that must be capable of being held in your lap if required, plus up to 2 items of luggage each not exceeding 30 x 70 x 90cm in size. Unless you are disabled or have reduced mobility and have made arrangements in advance for assistance, you should be able to manage your luggage without additional help. Luggage is carried subject to sufficient space being available in the train service you wish to use. Luggage should not occupy seats intended for passengers; if it does so, it may be charged for as set out in Appendix B."

As an aside I note a lot of onus being placed on "Ticket Sellers" (which could be anyone, including a Guard). Lots of bits now say things like "...the Ticket Seller must tell you about [whatever it may be] if you ask..."
 

Flamingo

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Regards charging for luggage, I can just see the "please explains" already :roll:

Is the onus on the passenger to ask conditions, or the ticket seller to tell in every case at the time of purchase?

If it is on the ticket seller to tell, well unless every ticket is going to be accompanied by something like a written contract that the passenger signs to confirm the restrictions have been read and agreed, then we may as well wave goodbye to anyone buying any open tickets, as they will have a "get out of jail free" card for every restricted ticket - "The ticket seller never told me, prove that they did!"

And how will that cover TVM's?
 
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wintonian

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Does this effectively mean you can (if one were so inclined) buy a seat for you luggage and not have to move it?
 

Flamingo

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Does this effectively mean you can (if one were so inclined) buy a seat for you luggage and not have to move it?

Presumably!

I'd guess if the luggage is less than five years old it travels free, 5 to 15 years half price! :)
 

IainH

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So it applies from 20th May, but is "not in the public domain yet". So anyone who has pre booked tickets for 20th may onwards, which they have been encouraged to do, is not aware of the conditions of those tickets? Likewise season ticket holders have a change in mid ticket? Unfair contract terms perhaps to not publicise the contract?
 

wintonian

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The conditions in force or those that will be at the time of travel if you have been informed of at the time of booking (or they have been advertised to the extent that it can be assumed you have been informed) are the relevent ones in these circumstances.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Regards charging for luggage, I can just see the "please explains" already :roll:

Is the onus on the passenger to ask conditions, or the ticket seller to tell in every case at the time of purchase?

If it is on the ticket seller to tell, well unless every ticket is going to be accompanied by something like a written contract that the passenger signs to confirm the restrictions have been read and agreed, then we may as well wave goodbye to anyone buying any open tickets, as they will have a "get out of jail free" card for every restricted ticket - "The ticket seller never told me, prove that they did!"

And how will that cover TVM's?

As I read it, some bits say "The Ticket Seller will tell you about xxx when you buy your ticket" other bits says "The Ticket Seller must tell you about xxx if you ask them".

"Ticket Seller" is described as "any person authorised to sell tickets for scheduled services on the National Rail Network".

For example it says (Condition 12) : "Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets... such as the dates, days and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket." This puts the onus on the seller to give those restrictions without being asked.

Other bits include "Ticket Sellers must give you clear information before, during and where necessary after your journey... This includes making these Conditions and the Byelaws available wherever you can buy a ticket..."

Other bits are different. Condition 13: "If you ask them to, the Ticket Seller must advise you on whether your intended route is valid with your ticket". And Condition 47 : "Each Train Company provides information about their specific luggage conditions on request, and this can be found from their website or from the Ticket Seller".
 
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