New Driver Assessments - Beware

[Bluebri]

Hi.

Just thought I should make everyone aware, that the new 'standardised' assessments for Train Driver are not as transparent as you may think. I recently took the new assessments with Northern, in full and passed. The OPC assessor told us that all these tests were the same and that they were valid for up to 5 years. This is NOT true. I have just recieved this from TPE:

'Thanks for letting us know your recent assessment scores. We have checked this and unfortunately your scores can't be carried over to First Trans Pennine Express as they are using enhanced scores only. The outcome of this is that we are unable to progress your current application with First Trans Pennine Express and you will need to wait for a period of six months before applying again. You can however continue your application with Northern.'

To say I am extremely disappointed would be an understatement. Fo anyone else applying to more than one TOC, be aware, as even with these new 'standard' tests are quite obviously not and could prevent you applying for other TOC's. Check before you waste your time and nerves.

 

[benno79]

I wonder what enhanced scores only means?

 

[Bluebri]

I wonder what enhanced scores only means?

I have just spoke to OPC, who administer the tests and they have said that TPE have a higher 'benchmark' to their Pass. I am still unclear whether they simply have higher scores to attain, or whether they use additional modules. I have emailed TPE to ask and will put their response here.

 

[benno79]

Thanks bluebri. I notice not everyone uses all the tests, for example I didn't have to do the Written communication when I did stage two of the new assessments. I assumed though the company that did want you to do it would just make you sit the part you didn't do previously.

 

[BromleyBoi]

When I sat the old tests for First Great Western the phrase they used was that they only accept "good passes" as there were what was considered borderline pass where you just scraped through and good passes which were a higher score.
So I think what the OPC have said about them having a higher benchmark probably does mean that they have a higher pass mark to achieve before they will consider you. I would have thought if it involved extra modules they can't really fail you totally until you've sat the necessary modules.

 

[Bluebri]

When I sat the old tests for First Great Western the phrase they used was that they only accept "good passes" as there were what was considered borderline pass where you just scraped through and good passes which were a higher score.
So I think what the OPC have said about them having a higher benchmark probably does mean that they have a higher pass mark to achieve before they will consider you. I would have thought if it involved extra modules they can't really fail you totally until you've sat the necessary modules.

It's not that they have failed me, it's that Northern use a different pass mark to TPE, which is higher, so have dismissed my application out of hand.

What I am frustrated about, is that I may have actually got enough to pass for TPE, but because the scores aren't recorded and passed to the TOC's now, TPE can't know without making me re-sit, which I am not allowed to do for 6 months. I completely understand where they're coming from, but think it is an unnecessary and pointless omission from the recording and monitoring process. It means that the TOC's may miss out on perfectly suitable candidates, while suitable candidates are missing out on opportunities. I think it would be more sensible for the scores to be kept by OPC, confidentially, then when a TOC approaches them for the results, the applicant could be measured on that TOC's requirements based on the test that they have already done.

 

[302PS]

Won't be too long a wait for northern fella, get your experience and then the rail world's your oyster

 

[Vicpaul]

Was under the impression It was simply pass or fail

 

[SPADTrap]

Hi.

Just thought I should make everyone aware, that the new 'standardised' assessments for Train Driver are not as transparent as you may think. I recently took the new assessments with Northern, in full and passed. The OPC assessor told us that all these tests were the same and that they were valid for up to 5 years. This is NOT true. I have just recieved this from TPE:

'Thanks for letting us know your recent assessment scores. We have checked this and unfortunately your scores can't be carried over to First Trans Pennine Express as they are using enhanced scores only. The outcome of this is that we are unable to progress your current application with First Trans Pennine Express and you will need to wait for a period of six months before applying again. You can however continue your application with Northern.'

To say I am extremely disappointed would be an understatement. Fo anyone else applying to more than one TOC, be aware, as even with these new 'standard' tests are quite obviously not and could prevent you applying for other TOC's. Check before you waste your time and nerves.

I just don't get this assessment stuff, I did a part assessment with LM a few months ago, passed it but then only a few weeks later did the full assessment and got a job with GA. But that means I sat it twice within 6 months which I thought was fine provided you passed everything, there was even people at LM who had passed the assessments but failed Manager's interviews with Chiltern and they were allowed to sit the new process a week after Chiltern...so at worst I'm perplexed why they couldn't let you resit them to prove their scores are met! Alas, thank you very much for sharing this information!

I'm baffled!

I really thought the results still went onto the RSSB database.

 

[carriageline]

Was under the impression It was simply pass or fail

It's the same as what it always has been from what I can tell. If you pass by the skin of your teeth (ie one mark over the pass mark) then some companies won't accept you.

They don't have to accept your pass mark, the myriad of people they get applying for these jobs, they can choose to pick the best of the best, or maybe they feel/past experience has shown them people with 'border line passes' are more at risk, who knows

 

[Jones]

What's so special about TPE?

 

[notaspotter]

What's so special about TPE?

What's so special is that they will be paying successful candidates on completion of training a great wage for doing a important job. Remember the amount of candidates applying will be very high for very limited positions, only 1 position in some depots, they can be picky if they want to be. If they want the best candidates, then that's the choice of TPE. It's frustrating for some, if they pass the assessments by the skin of their teeth, but you are going to have people who will get a higher score and they are the one's who stand out.

 

[Jones]

What's so special is that they will be paying successful candidates on completion of training a great wage for doing a important job. Remember the amount of candidates applying will be very high for very limited positions, only 1 position in some depots, they can be picky if they want to be. If they want the best candidates, then that's the choice of TPE. It's frustrating for some, if they pass the assessments by the skin of their teeth, but you are going to have people who will get a higher score and they are the one's who stand out.

You can say that about any TOC.

You seem to be implying that any driver working for another TOC is a a lesser person.

TPE appear to be up their own....

 

[notaspotter]

You can say that about any TOC.

You seem to be implying that any driver working for another TOC is a a lesser person.

TPE appear to be up their own....

No that is where you are wrong, of course train driving is as important, be it Northern, TPE, East Coast, XC, Virgin, wherever, but when TPE has only a limited number of vacancies, with a huge amount of interest, they can choose whoever they think suits best. If they decide to set a benchmark, that benchmark is set before any recruitment is done. If not one person was to reach that benchmark (which I think would be doubtful) then they most probably advertise again. I know how many positions there is for each depot, and there is not very many to be honest, plus the fact there was a huge amount of interest internally too, so if TPE want to cherry pick, they are within their rights to do so. Its not only TPE who have a benchmark, Northern has a pretty high benchmark too. Remember also, TPE is not the largest TOC, so again positions don't come up very often, another reason for them to pick who they see fit.

 

[Bert and Ernie]

No that is where you are wrong, of course train driving is as important, be it Northern, TPE, East Coast, XC, Virgin, wherever, but when TPE has only a limited number of vacancies, with a huge amount of interest, they can choose whoever they think suits best. If they decide to set a benchmark, that benchmark is set before any recruitment is done. If not one person was to reach that benchmark (which I think would be doubtful) then they most probably advertise again. I know how many positions there is for each depot, and there is not very many to be honest, plus the fact there was a huge amount of interest internally too, so if TPE want to cherry pick, they are within their rights to do so. Its not only TPE who have a benchmark, Northern has a pretty high benchmark too. Remember also, TPE is not the largest TOC, so again positions don't come up very often, another reason for them to pick who they see fit.

Manager alert
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If tpe don't accept northerns standards at the test level then why have they taken on so many northern drivers over the last 5 years.

Especially as an internal candidate they don't give us any breaks what so ever. Just because I can't count lifts while circling Indian restuarnts quicker than other people really dosent mean I will be an incompetent driver

As an internal candidate I have excellent route knowledge and traction together with knowing everyone and control etc and they knw I have never been late never gone sick and have an excellent safety record but it stands for nothing.

It's plain wrong. From a company I previously had a lot of respect for

 

[notaspotter]

Manager alert
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If tpe don't accept northerns standards at the test level then why have they taken on so many northern drivers over the last 5 years.

Especially as an internal candidate they don't give us any breaks what so ever. Just because I can't count lifts while circling Indian restuarnts quicker than other people really dosent mean I will be an incompetent driver

As an internal candidate I have excellent route knowledge and traction together with knowing everyone and control etc and they knw I have never been late never gone and gave an excellent safety recurs but it stands fir nothing.

It's plain wrong. From a company I previously had a lot of respect for

So can you honestly say, if someone has a higher % pass mark than another person, its wrong for them not to go for the candidate with that higher percentage ? And its not about TPE not accepting Northerns standards, as a ex Northern driver, I know this. But when a Northern driver applies for a job with TPE, they sit a series of tests, which must meet a standard which TPE set, if they don't meet that standard then they don't get through. Same applies with Virgin, XC and possibly other TOCS. And I sorry, but being internal, doesn't mean it's any easier to become a driver than external, be it TPE or Northern. I have colleagues at both companies who have applied, and have still not managed to get into the driver grade. There is a bench mark set, and that must be met I am afraid, if may seem unfair, but that's how it goes. They can do this because they know, the driver position is extremely popular role, and will have hundreds of applicants they can choose from.

 

[Bert and Ernie]

So can you honestly say, if someone has a higher % pass mark than another person, its wrong for them not to go for the candidate with that higher percentage ? And its not about TPE not accepting Northerns standards, as a ex Northern driver, I know this. But when a Northern driver applies for a job with TPE, they sit a series of tests, which must meet a standard which TPE set, if they don't meet that standard then they don't get through. Same applies with Virgin, XC and possibly other TOCS. And I sorry, but being internal, doesn't mean it's any easier to become a driver than external, be it TPE or Northern. I have colleagues at both companies who have applied, and have still not managed to get into the driver grade. There is a bench mark set, and that must be met I am afraid, if may seem unfair, but that's how it goes. They can do this because they know, the driver position is extremely popular role, and will have hundreds of applicants they can choose from.

What I'm saying is an guard with 10 years good service for the company get absolutely no advantages over an external candidate that they have no idea what there like apart from the can circle restaurants quickly!
I can't see there reasoning, there obsessed with assessments and stats, but they don't tell a whole picture.
A 21 year old straight out of colleague/uni will probably be better at tests than a 40 year old guard but does that mean they will be better driver no not really.
I'm saying they need to look at all elements and not just assessments results and give internal candidates a break
Internal candidates : mandatory pass
External candidates : enhanced pass

As external candidates are more of a risk

 

[SPADTrap]

As external candidates are more of a risk

They're more 'unknown' than an internal candidate (provided the internal candidate is a good employee) but when it comes to driving (which is the end game) untimely internal/external doesn't come into it, it has little to do with competency hence the assessment process. I've been there as an 'internal' candidate hoping for a 'head start' but when it came to driving thre was little dispensation, especially when the recruitment drive is external as well as internal! I found myself moving companies for a driver's job as a result, just how it goes!

While a 21 year old may be more suited to testing that doesn't mean that the 40 year old guard with 10 years service would make a better driver if he passed assessments, it doesn't mean anything, those who pass assessments will make better drivers than those who don't.

Giving internal candidates lower standards because they are internal is dangerous, I'd rather not travel on a TOCs trains who does that!

 

[Bert and Ernie]

They're more 'unknown' than an internal candidate (provided the internal candidate is a good employee) but when it comes to driving (which is the end game) untimely internal/external doesn't come into it, it has little to do with competency hence the assessment process. I've been there as an 'internal' candidate hoping for a 'head start' but when it came to driving thre was little dispensation, especially when the recruitment drive is external as well as internal! I found myself moving companies for a driver's job as a result, just how it goes!

While a 21 year old may be more suited to testing that doesn't mean that the 40 year old guard with 10 years service would make a better driver if he passed assessments, it doesn't mean anything, those who pass assessments will make better drivers than those who don't.

Giving internal candidates lower standards because they are internal is dangerous, I'd rather not travel on a TOCs trains who does that!

Are you suggesting that candidates who reach an enhanced standard are safer drivers than those who reach a mandatory level?

In that case don't travel on northern or tpe as before this intake drivers were only required to reach a mandatory level and toe only used to take on internal. I remember at tpe there would be only 20 internal applicants for 2 trainee positions and they are still there with excellent safety records and one is actually a DM now

 

[SPADTrap]

Are you suggesting that candidates who reach an enhanced standard are safer drivers than those who reach a mandatory level?

In that case don't travel on northern or tpe as before this intake drivers were only required to reach a mandatory level and toe only used to take on internal. I remember at tpe there would be only 20 internal applicants for 2 trainee positions and they are still there with excellent safety records and one is actually a DM now

Simply seems to be a way of reducing the numbers as driver applicants is surely higher than it was 5-7 years ago? Things change.

 

[455driver]

TPE appear to be up their own....

TPE also make qualified drivers take the tests so not much chance of them getting the best candidates as a lot of existing drivers wont do the tests out of principal!

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Please explain to me why i'm a riskier proposition.

 

[notaspotter]

What I'm saying is an guard with 10 years good service for the company get absolutely no advantages over an external candidate that they have no idea what there like apart from the can circle restaurants quickly!
I can't see there reasoning, there obsessed with assessments and stats, but they don't tell a whole picture.
A 21 year old straight out of colleague/uni will probably be better at tests than a 40 year old guard but does that mean they will be better driver no not really.
I'm saying they need to look at all elements and not just assessments results and give internal candidates a break
Internal candidates : mandatory pass
External candidates : enhanced pass

As external candidates are more of a risk

Why are external candidates more of a risk ? Sorry but they have as much knowledge of driving a train, as a guard does.

I was a guard at FNW, I went into the driving grade and in my class I was with people off the railway, when it come to learning driving a train, apart from a few things, I had as much knowledge as them when it come to actually driving. I could roll off station names, junctions, tunnel names etc, know the difference between a 142 and a 150, but still when it come to driving, I learnt everything with them, alongside them, I knew no more when it came to driving a train.
Sorry but I disagree with you totally on that one, when a bench mark is set, its set for everyone, no matter what job or experience you have.

 

[LowLevel]

It does, as a completely random aside, tickle me that suddenly TPE and the local side of XC are suddenly seen as 'higher tier' or more desirable TOCs as a result of the franchise map changes despite both being ex Regional Railways franchises with the same provenance as the likes of Northern Rail - an XC Local driver once put it to me that the 'Intercity' drivers there drive 25 mph faster with a couple more coaches, usually, at most, yet you'd think they were the Kings of the Universe

On a more topical note, if you have a large number of candidates for a job, you have to cut them down somehow. If that means raising the pass mark, then to be fair it makes no difference to the company, they still get the highest scoring candidates and it's tough luck to those who don't make the cut, they effectively become irrelevant.

 

[notaspotter]

On a more topical note, if you have a large number of candidates for a job, you have to cut them down somehow. If that means raising the pass mark, then to be fair it makes no difference to the company, they still get the highest scoring candidates and it's tough luck to those who don't make the cut, they effectively become irrelevant.

Exactly, it may seem unfair, but this is how it works, and I don't think it would change anytime soon, because they know they will always get a high number of applicants.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Just to drop something in here than a few of you seem to be unaware of, it's not just TPE who insist on a higher score than the RSSB define as a passing grade. It happens at a lot of places, I can tell you for a fact that it happened at Chiltern recently both for internal and external candidates and I would imagine the same thing is the case at most TOCs.

I agree with the guy earlier who pointed out that companies are well within their right to cherry pick who they want when they get flooded with applications for the job. I'm going to pull numbers out of the air here for the sake of example but yourself in the position of the TOC for a second, if you can get the number of people into interviews that you want (or are prepared to handle) just by taking the top 5% of test scores then why take the top 15%?

 

[TDK]

I wonder what enhanced scores only means?

I wonder what happens if you do the tests privately at a huge cost as some are contemplating doing!

 

[Bluebri]

What has irritated me about all this is that I understand different companies having different rules/standards/recruiting practises, this is the same in any industry anywhere in the world, but, I was simply told that TPE use the Enhanced scores, which is great. I am left to assume, with good faith, that my scores are recorded and my actual score was checked. That I am fine with. However, as said earlier in the thread, neither TPE nor OPC will divulge or discuss this in any way, despite them being 'my' scores and 'my' data. It would be nice to 'know' that my scores were not at the standard required, rather than being left with the very strong feeling that because I did the test for Northern that does not require an Enhanced score, a 'Standard' pass is recorded rather than a more transparent result.

My initial shock and disappointment has waned somewhat, but I can't help feeling that this 'cloak and dagger' approach doesn't benefit anyone and leaves a bitter taste. Surely it would make more sense and prevent a lot of unnecessary phone calls / emails etc. if the 'actual' result of your test is given to you, so you could see how you have done. I cannot understand or think of any reason this is withheld. But I will stand corrected if anyone can come up with, or give a reasonable explanation why this would not be possible.

 

[benno79]

I understand a sar request can be put into the opc to get more information on your scores.

 

[Sidious]

It would be nice to 'know' that my scores were not at the standard required, rather than being left with the very strong feeling that because I did the test for Northern that does not require an Enhanced score, a 'Standard' pass is recorded rather than a more transparent result.

Is what you are suggesting that you might have actually done enough for an enhanced pass in the tests, but it was only ever counted as a standard pass, because the other TOC (Northern) only count the lower pass mark?