New London Midland timetable

[A0wen]

It is Virgin who price both the 'via Long Buckby' and 'Any Permitted' fares (which are available for journeys such as Northampton to Manchester). The 'Any Permitted' fare is pointless for these journeys, because even though it is more expensive than the 'via Long Buckby' fare, still isn't valid via Milton Keynes so has identical routeing!

The Any Permitted fares are, and have always been, valid via MKC - I know because I've used them to get from Northampton to Manchester.

If you want evidence - do a search on National Rail for Northampton to Manchester Piccadilly for Monday.

The 10.25 departure is via MKC with an off-peak ticket of £63.50.

The 10.45 departure is with a change at Stafford, is via Long Buckby only and has a price of £52.60.

The via Long Buckby fares are cheaper, but the challenge you've got is you are usually routed via New Street with a longer journey.

What is needed is for LM to be explicit that any LM only ticket from destinations north of Rugby to Northampton (and vice versa)are valid via MKC and not just Long Buckby - which the routeing guide doesn't currently support.

 

[All Line Rover]

The Any Permitted fares are, and have always been, valid via MKC - I know because I've used them to get from Northampton to Manchester.

If you want evidence - do a search on National Rail for Northampton to Manchester Piccadilly for Monday.

The 10.25 departure is via MKC with an off-peak ticket of £63.50.

The 10.45 departure is with a change at Stafford, is via Long Buckby only and has a price of £52.60.

The via Long Buckby fares are cheaper, but the challenge you've got is you are usually routed via New Street with a longer journey.

What is needed is for LM to be explicit that any LM only ticket from destinations north of Rugby to Northampton (and vice versa)are valid via MKC and not just Long Buckby - which the routeing guide doesn't currently support.

No, you are incorrect. Currently fares are not valid via Milton Keynes for two reasons:

• 1. An easement prevents tickets from Northampton being valid via Milton Keynes
• 2. Travelling via Milton Keynes involves doubling back through Wolverton

The fares you've quoted from National Rail Enquiries prove my point. The '£63.50' fare is a combination of two fares - an 'Anytime Day Single' from Northampton to Milton Keynes and an 'Off-Peak Single' from Milton Keynes to Manchester. This is shown in the blue box on the bottom-right of the screen. This is because the through 'Any Permitted' fare from Northampton to Manchester is not valid via Milton Keynes at the moment (because it involves doubling back through Wolverton), even though it is intended to be (as reflected in the price)

David (aka 'London_Midland') has offered to solve this problem by removing the first easement and adding a new easement which will allow customers to double back through Wolverton. This is very helpful of him.

I no longer trust your posts if you can make an error as simple as this. (Your last sentence is also incorrect. It isn't the case that all 'LM Only' tickets from stations north of Rugby to/from Northampton are valid via Milton Keynes, even after the easements have been amended, because it isn't always a mapped route).

 

[A0wen]

No, you are incorrect. Currently fares are not valid via Milton Keynes for two reasons:

• 1. An easement prevents tickets from Northampton being valid via Milton Keynes
• 2. Travelling via Milton Keynes involves doubling back through Wolverton

The fares you've quoted from National Rail Enquiries prove my point. The '£63.50' fare is a combination of two fares - an 'Anytime Day Single' from Northampton to Milton Keynes and an 'Off-Peak Single' from Milton Keynes to Manchester. This is shown in the blue box on the bottom-right of the screen. This is because the through 'Any Permitted' fare from Northampton to Manchester is not valid via Milton Keynes at the moment (because it involves doubling back through Wolverton), even though it is intended to be (as reflected in the price)

David (aka 'London_Midland') has offered to solve this problem by removing the first easement and adding a new easement which will allow customers to double back through Wolverton. This is very helpful of him.

I no longer trust your posts if you can make an error as simple as this. (Your last sentence is also incorrect. It isn't the case that all 'LM Only' tickets from stations north of Rugby to/from Northampton are valid via Milton Keynes, even after the easements have been amended, because it isn't always a mapped route).

Well, admittedly it's not been for a year or so, but last time I bought an any permitted route ticket from NMP to MAN, I wasn't issued with two tickets and it was accepted via MKC - no question or challenge was raised to that.

I probably wasn't clear with the last point, as I may have accidentally implied that LM only tickets are valid via MKC - what I put to restate:

"What is needed is for LM to be explicit that any LM only ticket from destinations north of Rugby to Northampton (and vice versa)are valid via MKC and not just Long Buckby - which the routeing guide doesn't currently support."

What I was implying is that LM need to allow the easement on LM only tickets if you're travelling to NMP from destinations north of Rugby on an LM only ticket - it isn't currently an issue because all LM services travel via NMP.

 

[All Line Rover]

Well, admittedly it's not been for a year or so, but last time I bought an any permitted route ticket from NMP to MAN, I wasn't issued with two tickets and it was accepted via MKC - no question or challenge was raised to that.

'No questions asked' is different to 'a valid ticket.' You were travelling on an invalid ticket (albeit via a very reasonable route). Thanks to David passengers will now be able to travel via Milton Keynes in the knowledge that their ticket definitely is valid. Again, I stress my appreciation of this, as if you go via a TOC's Customer Services department it can take forever to speak to the right person, let alone get anything done.

What I was implying is that LM need to allow the easement on LM only tickets if you're travelling to NMP from destinations north of Rugby on an LM only ticket - it isn't currently an issue because all LM services travel via NMP.

The easement will allow this, but not for short journeys such as Birmingham to Northampton or Nuneaton to Northampton, which is to be expected considering the price of the fares. At the same time, if travelling from Crewe to Northampton with LM only, for example, I don't understand why you'd want to travel via Milton Keynes anyway when the southbound connections are fine at Rugby and David has offered to fix the northbound connections at Rugby.

 

[SS4]

As I understand it every station north of NMP gets quicker LM journeys to London? Yet people are still complaining about NMP?

 

[IanD]

I think you're being unfair on Virgin here - I suspect there was always a premium to travel down to MK from Northampton to then travel north - even in BR days.

I lived in Northampton for 5 years from 1989-1994 and travelled to Bradford very often and the cost of a ticket was the same whether you travelled via Long Buckby or Milton Keynes or Birmingham or Tamworth or Derby or Manchester or Leeds, I even travelled via Preston and Blackburn a couple of times. The only thing that affected the fare was the time of travel.

So what you're saying is - Northampton has lost out in having a decent service to Birmingham and it's all Virgin's fault?

There is some truth in that. A lot of the inadeqacies in local services on the southern end of the WCML have come about after the 'improvements' made to allow VT to operate their VHF service.

 

[calc7]

I fully agree with All Line Rover's analysis.

Sadly, Northampton is "neither nowt nor summat" (ok, it's more towards summat, but it doesn't have the business market that MK does, and it is situated on a slow loop line). Sorry.

 

[bILLOO]

I fully agree with All Line Rover's analysis.

Sadly, Northampton is "neither nowt nor summat" (ok, it's more towards summat, but it doesn't have the business market that MK does, and it is situated on a slow loop line). Sorry.

This is the sad truth. Northampton will always be limited to the services that it can be provided with. Like I've said, it's a London commuter town, thus why the northern destinations will now be limited to Birmingham.

On the plus side, doesn't Northampton get two new non-stop serivices to London in the morning peak provided by LM? Pity there doesn't appear to be a return service, however.

Will Virgin continue to run its' one-a-day London express?

 

[MK Tom]

The only thing that Northampton loses from Project 110 is no-change services to the Trent valley off-peak. It retains the same frequencies to London and Birmingham and enjoys a faster service to London due to 110mph running on the MKC & WFJ service. David/LM has said timings at Rugby will be adjusted to allow for a reliable change there. I understand consternation from Northy residents about losing the TV service; I'd be similarly fobbed off if Southern suddenly pulled MKC's connection to Clapham and made us change however reliably at Watford. It's annoying, but Northampton is very badly located and the people ultimately to blame for this AND Northampton's lack of economic power compared with neighbours are the people who lived in Northampton back in the early 19th century and prevented Stephenson putting the WCML through in the first place.

LM are trying their best to improve this for everyone. It would be wrong to suggest there is some conspiracy to give MKC all the best services. P110 is as much about Nuneaton, Tamworth and Lichfield as it is about MK. THOSE are the places it's really meant to benefit. It does enormously benefit MK too, but MK is the largest urban area on the WCML's core main line between London and Preston. It makes sense for it to have a stronger service than Rugby or Northampton, especially given the latter's location on a loop line.

One thing that would perhaps improve matters is 2tph along the TV, one starting at Northampton and taking the Stoke route, the other running from Euston calling MK only south of Rugby then going direct from Stafford to Crewe and on to Liverpool. LM are entirely justified in blaming Virgin for the limits in their services. Virgin messed everyone up with the VHF timetable (look at Northern between Stoke and Manchester for another example). Nevertheless I'd ask David to relay my suggestion back as it'd give Northampton back its TV connections without clogging up the WCML south of MK any further. The slow service could potentially start at MK for that matter.

 

[tbtc]

As I understand it every station north of NMP gets quicker LM journeys to London? Yet people are still complaining about NMP?

Yup - but then every change tends to get criticised on here, like those obscure long distance links which are now lost (how many people travelled from Lincoln to Shrewsbury or Portsmouth to Liverpool or Peterborough to Glasgow?).

Enthusiasts are a fairly conservative bunch - look how every change (Eureka, Operation Princess etc) sees complaints about the small number of people making obscure journeys instead of the large number who see improvements.

See also suggestions which involve links like Middlesbrough - Manchester Airport cut...

Sadly, Northampton is "neither nowt nor summat" (ok, it's more towards summat, but it doesn't have the business market that MK does, and it is situated on a slow loop line). Sorry.

Totally agreed.

 

[martinsh]

Northampton is very badly located and the people ultimately to blame for this AND Northampton's lack of economic power compared with neighbours are the people who lived in Northampton back in the early 19th century and prevented Stephenson putting the WCML through in the first place.

Maybe there should be a "Northampton Parkway" on the main line ?

 

[calc7]

Maybe there should be a "Northampton Parkway" on the main line ?

Watford Gap, just to confuse the layman.

 

[martinsh]

Watford Gap, just to confuse the layman.

I was thinking more like near where the A43 crosses - Blisworth ish.

Watford Gap would be more like "Daventry Parkway"

 

[SS4]

Maybe there should be a "Northampton Parkway" on the main line ?

Which receives only a parliamentary train

 

[Simon Poole]

The only problem with Rugeley Trent Valley is that they haven't sorted the connections out still, when the train leaves to London at 4 minutes past the hour, the Birmingham - Rugeley local arrives at 5 or 6 minutes past but they leave at xx39 to Birmingham

 

[calc7]

The only problem with Rugeley Trent Valley is that they haven't sorted the connections out still, when the train leaves to London at 4 minutes past the hour, the Birmingham - Rugeley local arrives at 5 or 6 minutes past but they leave at xx39 to Birmingham

I imagine that the majority of passengers are expected to travel via Birmingham (which I agree isn't ideal, but what can you do)

 

[MCR247]

I thought he was talking about Stafford - Walsall for example where you can look forward to a 35 minute wait?

 

[All Line Rover]

I thought he was talking about Stafford - Walsall for example where you can look forward to a 35 minute wait?

I'd be interested to know how many passengers actually make that journey on a daily basis. Even now the connections aren't great, so I'm not sure what the issue is here.

 

[Goatboy]

Very unimpressed with the new LM timetable, according to NRES they appear to have binned the 16:03 GMV to BNS entirely meaning that in order to travel from GMV to the Westcountry you must instead catch a train a full HOUR earlier and wait for an extra hour at Worcester despite retaining the same arrival time. What an annoying and needlessly frustrating increase in journey time.

Infact bizarrely it now creates a 90 minute black hole of no-trains towards Worcester from Great Malvern on a Sunday afternoon - until the 16:37 which appears to be what was the 16:03 and nicely timed to miss the only-2-hourly connection to Cheltenham

Between 14:10 and 15:10 there are no less than 3 trains in the Worcester direction, then there isn't another until 16:37?! Where is the logic in that?

I just noticed this comes across as rather ranty but given this is my regular train I'm slightly peeved about an additional hour sitting around in Shrub Hill.

 

[tbtc]

Very unimpressed with the new LM timetable, according to NRES they appear to have binned the 16:03 GMV to BNS entirely

BNS = Barnes
BHM = Birmingham New Street

 

[Goatboy]

You probably haven't noticed that this thread concerns the Crewe/Birmingham to London services, which from December are being sped up to 110mph.

If you want to discuss other London Midland services, I suggest you create a new thread.

oops, sorry. The title made me think it was about the LM Timetable - it was this thread that prompted me to check it and see if it affected my journey. Seemed a more sensible place to put my comments than an entirely new thread.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

BNS = Barnes
BHM = Birmingham New Street

Whoops, obviously I mean BHM.

 

[Mike395]

I agree with you goatboy - this thread is fine to discuss all aspects relating to the new LM timetable from December

 

[stonecold]

With the 7.06 and 8.02 from Stone to Stafford replaced by the first train of the day the 7.25, followed by a 8.26 it makes my trip to New st. difficult.

The 7.25 has a 2 minute connection in Stafford to pick up the Birmingham train. The 8.26 is too late as it gets in near to half nine.

Coming home is where the problem becomes too much. To get the 18.39 from Stafford to Stone it leaves only a 4 minute connection at Stafford (or 10 minute if you catch the rammed Cross Country train at 17.57). Both trains can easly exeed those connection times with their average daily delays, so i'd often (probably more often than not) miss my last train of the day to Stone.

I may be able to get the Liverpool train to Stafford the 17.36, but that would involve a 30 minute wait at Stafford.

I can't see any viable alternative except to try and change my season ticket to Stoke to New St. That means finding £2628 for a month in the week before Christmas.

I'm pretty angry about it. London Midland have effectively abandoned Stone Commuters into Birmingham.

Just incase Iv'e missed any viable options/routes from Stone to Birmingham could you please advise. London Midland unfortunately are not interested in our plight.

 

[calc7]

With the 7.06 and 8.02 from Stone to Stafford replaced by the first train of the day the 7.25, followed by a 8.26 it makes my trip to New st. difficult.

The 7.25 has a 2 minute connection in Stafford to pick up the Birmingham train. The 8.26 is too late as it gets in near to half nine.

Coming home is where the problem becomes too much. To get the 18.39 from Stafford to Stone it leaves only a 4 minute connection at Stafford (or 10 minute if you catch the rammed Cross Country train at 15.57). Both can easly exeed those connection times with the average daily delay, so i'd often miss my last train of the day to Stone.

I may be able to get the Liverpool train to Stafford the 17.36, but that would involve a 30 minute wait at Stafford.

I can't see any viable alternative except to try and change my season ticket to Stoke to New St. That means finding £2628 for a month in the week before Christmas.

I'm pretty angry about it. London Midland have effectively abandoned Stone Commuters into Birmingham.

Do you live between Stoke and Stone? Would driving to Stafford be an option?

 

[stonecold]

Pretty much directly between Stoke and Stone.

I travelled from Stoke for a couple of years, however got fed up with the crammed Cross Country trains.

I found a great alternative from Stone. Free parking, standard ticket to Stafford and 1st class from Stafford to new St. to enable getting a seat (well the majority of the time) in and out of Birmingham.

Any help appreciated. As far as I can see it means going back to Stoke and finding the money to sort out my season ticket, which Ive only had a couple of months.

Driving to Stafford on a daily basis is not really an option.

 

[All Line Rover]

Pretty much directly between Stoke and Stone.

I travelled from Stoke for a couple of years, however got fed up with the crammed Cross Country trains.

I found a great alternative from Stone. Free parking, standard ticket to Stafford and 1st class from Stafford to new St. to enable getting a seat (well the majority of the time) in and out of Birmingham.

Any help appreciated. As far as I can see it means going back to Stoke and finding the money to sort out my season ticket, which Ive only had a couple of months.

Driving to Stafford on a daily basis is not really an option.

National Rail Enquiries suggests:
Stone [07:25] to Tamworth [08:02] (London Midland)
Tamworth [08:11] to Birmingham [08:27] (CrossCountry)

I assume you have a Standard Class Stone to Stafford season ticket and a First Class Stafford to Birmingham season ticket? If that's the case, the above itinerary is perfectly valid and you get to travel in First Class on CrossCountry (a Voyager, not a Turbo).

 

[DJ737]

G'day the connection to Birmingham New St off the 0725 from Stone occurs at Tamworth arr Birmingham at 0827

Heading home try the 1749 from New St to Tamworth connecting with the Stone train arr 1850

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia

 

[Eagle]

National Rail Enquiries suggests:
Stone [07:25] to Tamworth [08:02] (London Midland)
Tamworth [08:11] to Birmingham [08:27] (CrossCountry)

This is valid using a Stone to Birmingham ticket and you are only likely to have to stand on the 16 minute CrossCountry service.

It's also valid if you split tickets at Stafford as you currently do (and there'll probably be ample space in first class on the XC service—it's a Voyager so it's a whole carriage worth).

 

[stonecold]

National Rail Enquiries suggests:
Stone [07:25] to Tamworth [08:02] (London Midland)
Tamworth [08:11] to Birmingham [08:27] (CrossCountry)

I assume you have a Standard Class Stone to Stafford season ticket and a First Class Stafford to Birmingham season ticket? If that's the case, the above itinerary is perfectly valid and you get to travel in First Class on CrossCountry (a Voyager, nor a Turbo).

Yes a Standard Class Stone to Stafford season ticket and a First Class Stafford to Birmingham season ticket.

Does this mean I can go via Tamworth? I thought I have to go Stone to Stafford and then Stafford to New St, via Wolverhampton?

Just looked at the Nw St to Tamworth 17.49, this allows a 7 minute only connection, if i miss that i'm stuck in Tamworth?

Thanks all for your advice.

 

[All Line Rover]

Yes a Standard Class Stone to Stafford season ticket and a First Class Stafford to Birmingham season ticket.

Does this mean I can go via Tamworth? I thought I have to go Stone to Stafford and then Stafford to New St, via Wolverhampton?

Just looked at the Nw St to Tamworth 17.49, this allows a 7 minute only connection, if i miss that i'm stuck in Tamworth?

Thanks all for your advice.

You obviously need to travel from Stone to Stafford, but when travelling from Stafford to Birmingham you can go via Wolverhampton, Rugeley/Walsall, Lichfield, Tamworth or Nuneaton. Plenty of choice there!

Being delayed at Tamworth is a risk, but London Midland would be obliged to get you to your final destination (e.g. by providing a taxi if you've missed the last train back to Stone) and you'd also be entitled to Delay Repay compensation.