NI Thumpers

Discussion in 'International Transport' started by yorkie, 6 Apr 2011.

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  1. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Are you going to start a thread about it in the Tours & Special Workings folder? This will be seen by a lot more people IMHO.
     
  2. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    The following changes have been made to translink ilink tickets:

    Zone 3, all of Northern Ireland, has been renamed zone 4 and is unchanged in area and price but users of this card must exchange this card for a zone 4 card. If this is done on or after 01.01.2012 there is a charge of £1.50 (the wrong date is given on the translink website)

    Zones 1 and 2 are unchanged. The new zone 3 covers travel as far as Culleybackey, Portadown, Bangor and Larne There is a new Northwest card covering Londonderry to Portrush and Ballymoney. Both this and the new zone 3 are of questionable value at £12.50 when the whole of NI zone 4 is £15
     
  3. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    The new zone three card is of use to thumper bashers who don't want to stray off the Larne line though. At least it is for the next few weeks/months :(
     
  4. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    Sandite Train 90+97+752+94 ran for the last time overnight 9/10 December 2011. On December 21st this set plus 69 were taken to Portadown for storage. 90 94 69 were powering. This was almost certainly the last run of an 80 class on NIR

    ITS will have pictures available later today
     
  5. I T S

    I T S Member

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  6. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    :( :(
     
  7. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    Actually 1974! First set in service was 89-763-733 on 05.10.1974 (presumably the earlier passenger working of 102 hauling 80 trailers does not count)

    Attached photo (C) Aubrey Dale of this set at Lisburn on 1210 GVS-Portadown 12.10.1974
     

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  8. 102 fan

    102 fan Member

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    Sad sad day.
     
  9. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Where's that shot in yr avatar taken 89-763-733? Barn?
     
  10. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    That is 81 at Lisburn in January 1980 photo (C) Jonathan Allen
     
  11. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    That maroon and blue livery with the full diamond on the front rather than the rather odd looking inverted chevron like a villainous moustahe when the sets were new was the best livery ever carried by the 80 class.
     
  12. I T S

    I T S Member

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    The Portrush branch 450 is booked to come off tomorrow after the 1745 from Portrush. It will then run empty to Belfast. Whether it returns in the new year is another thing. Another plastic heap of scrap was commissioned today for service..... Thats 5 now passed for service
     
  13. Cyberbeagle

    Cyberbeagle Member

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    Interesting that you don't actually give a timeline for this... the steam crane was acquired as a museum exhibit back in the early 90s when there was about less than half the current stock in Downpatrick, long before the Class 80s were anywhere near being withdrawn. It's not as if Downpatrick said "no thanks" to a Class 80 and then a steam crane arrived...



    Again, a lot of presumption here...

    It is true that the DCDR did inspect the vehicles that were lined up for scrap in Adelaide back in 2006. However there were several key factors that had to be taken into consideration from a business point of view and not the emotional "something must be done!!" point of view, or indeed an "idiot's" POV...

    The offer spoken of was to cover the costs of transport, and if I remember correctly quotes actually came in higher for our partner than were expected, so there probably would've been costs involved, plus whatever price NIR was looking for the vehicles.

    These particular units were withdrawn for a reason, they were knackered. One only has to take a look at the expense RPSI went through to get their Mark 2s overhauled. As someone high up in NIR said, remember the British cars of the 1970s? Rust buckets. Same technology. No. 92 and indeed 99 were the best ones, and actually when NIR realised 752 was in as good a condition as it was, fetched it out pronto. However it is safe to say that the powercars would probably have needed major surgery at some point.

    Secondly, as everyone's probably aware from the photos on Facebook the DCDR was putting in for its new Carriage Display Gallery. While I don't think anyone expected the grant application processes and the various stages you have to go through to take 4 years till construction started, we were aware that if the application was successful that it would essentially wipe out HALF of our yard in terms of storage space during the period of construction. Any visitor to the DCDR will note that we have carriages sitting on isolated pieces of track within the yard, and the aforementioned steam crane is stored at the far end of the line. Add in 128ft of a 2-piece Class 80 and that's a lot of room you've got to find.

    Finally, we knew that NIR were retaining a number of Class 80s for its own services, and that there was no immediate risk of extinction to the class.

    And, yes, as others have said, the mums and dads who pay the fares come to see steam trains. It's a hard economic truth here in Northern Ireland. But it's there.

    So, as much of a fan of the Class 80s as I am, I'm hard pressed to see how we could've taken a different decision back in 2006. So, while being called "idiots" for not taking one in 2006, I'm doubly sure that if 99 or 92 and a trailer had come down, and it hadn't been used or had had to be stored somewhere less than ideal during construction work, we would be the worst in the world.
     
    Last edited: 13 Jan 2012
  14. Shimbleshanks

    Shimbleshanks Member

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    The Ulster Folk & Transport Museum probably has much more of interest, including several standard and narrow gauge locos plus rolling stock etc etc. I went when I was on holiday in NI a few years back and was very impressed.

    It's only 2 mins walk from Cultra station on the Bangor branch.
     
  15. 102 fan

    102 fan Member

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    I have to take exception to the rust bucket statement. The same works that built he 80's built the coaches for the HST's, and they are still in front line use in GB - Great Western main line and East Coast.


    It's the principle. A non operational steam crane can be bought and transported, and, if I remember right there were very few calls for it to be preserved, to Downpatrick, but a Class 80, which would be operational and has support, isn't viewed the same?

    I seem to remember that the DCDR accquired an CIE MV and a baby GM since the arguments started over this. Has the DCDR membership ever been asked about if they want an 80?

    Most societies that I've been in all have the same ideas. When work needs done "It's your society" when the member wants someting done "It's the committee that makes the decisions"!
     
    Last edited: 18 Jan 2012
  16. Cyberbeagle

    Cyberbeagle Member

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    The difference being regular overhauls, which the 80s clearly didn't get. The engineers in York Road will tell you they were rough, and I have seen the condition of some of RPSI's ex NIR Mk2 were in.

    I still really don't get your bugbear over the steam crane, an artefact acquired right at the early days of the DCDR as a talking point for visitors and when there was little else from the steam age still available. You could say the same about the "lack of calls" to preserve many things in the RPSI/DCDR or UFTM collection. You could also argue that being stored outside the yard for the moment means it is not fulfilling its original purpose, that's true - blame the Carriage Gallery, but where else in Ireland could you see a steam crane up close if you are a visitor?

    And yes, A39 and B146 are now on site. They have vacuum brakes which an 80 does not and so can haul our existing stock: they were needed to replace the aging E-Class which will need serious TLC, so there was a clear business case. Plus the ITG needed our help and we were happy to do so, and we have had some good expertise and regular extra manpower as a result. Don't forget back in 2006 our locomotive "team" consisted of ONE person, now it's a much more healthy composition.

    You seem to be under the impression that the DCDR is anti-80 Class. That's not the case, although there are some people in our membership who would be vehemently against one, while others would be vehemently in favour. You have to have a good business case to get something through. It may be "your society" but you still have to have a strategy to stay afloat! ;)
     
    Last edited: 18 Jan 2012
  17. I T S

    I T S Member

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    Here's a question....

    Why did the MRSI make a statement saying that there was no road transport big enough to transport an 80 class vehicle in Northern Ireland? That is clearly totally wrong.

    How did NIR get their 80s out of Adelaide in 2008?

    How did NIR get Power car 99 to East Lancs?

    Would the above statement not show a fact that some people are trying to avoid taking an 80 class and hoping to preserve something "they like better" at a later date?

    I know several lorry companies that could do the job of the top of my head.....
     
  18. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    The one that moves CAFs from the docks to York Road springs to mind.
     
  19. Cyberbeagle

    Cyberbeagle Member

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    Don't you mean the MRSI made a statement saying that there was no road transport big enough to transport an 80 class vehicle in Northern Ireland in the preferred manner? i.e. someone like Alleleys where you get them to roll on and roll off? This is the method of tranport all three organisations RPSI/DCDR/ITG prefer to use.

    Yes there are heavy hauliers like Mar-train who could transport something the length and weight of an 80 powercar. But they do not have the specialised trailers that would allow a unit to be pushed onto it: they would have to be lifted using two cranes, and given the weight of a powercar those would be big cranes. So you need two lorries and four heavy-lift cranes at both ends, you really wouldn't actually be saving any money, with a much more increased risk of damage to the equipment and bogies underneath. Plus from a logisitics point of view it's much more involved.

    I am almost certain Alleleys moved 99 to East Lancs, but can't really remember, and the vehicles that went to Clearways were for scrap so no-one cared about damaging the equipment underneath - Gordy Hawkins on his old fotopic site used to have some great photos of them being taken away from Adelaide on stand 40ft trailers overhanging them strapped down. Surely not the way to transport something that you want to be kept in operational condition?

    And regards your second-to-last statement, you might think that, but I think I may have to quote The Eighth Doctor about that: "always seeing patterns in things that aren't there." LOL! ;) Again, people seem to be convinced about our position without any evidence to back that up... but rest assured *if* NIR offer a Class 80 for preservation what happens will based on a business case, historical significance, and confidence we could keep a unit operational and in good condition, as well as other factors, and not because people online think "we should do something".

    EDIT: I see while writing this you posted a link to show the cranage option I described. Expensive for a heritage society(s) indeed! Plus a Class 80 powercar is much heavier than a CAF trailer, so bigger cranes needed.
     
    Last edited: 19 Jan 2012
  20. 102 fan

    102 fan Member

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    Historical significance should always come before business case! Although I'm not altogether comfortable with the words 'business case' in relation to a preserved railway. I can't help but think that if a 'business case' had applied to the Great Dorset Steam Fair and it's exhibits it would not now be the national heritage show!
     
  21. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    MRSI members are currently being balloted on paying for the transport of either 2 or three 80 class cars to Downpatrick. The result of this ballot should be known by the end of next week.

    Last night members were told:

    There are two suitable hauliers who could move 80s by road, one in England and the other in Dublin. Martran, who move the 4000 cars from Belfast docks to York Road use cranes at each end which would add considerably to the cost while the other operators can deliver vehicles on a roll-on/roll-off basis

    The vehicles will be the property of Downpatrick with the MRSI not being part owners. Depending on cost it is hoped two power cars and one driving trailer will go to Downpatrick. If costs are higher than anticipated then it will just be one power car and a DT

    While specific vehicles have not yet been targeted it is almost certain that those at Portadown will be in the frame as they were in running order as of last month (69 90 94 752)
     
  22. 102 fan

    102 fan Member

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    So it looks like one could be going to Downpatrick after all. I'm assuming this has been discussed by the two societies.
    Why the secrecy?
     
  23. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    What secrecy?
     
  24. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Is 752 an original DTS or a converted one without centre doors?
     
  25. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    ex BR 5516 in 1981 and no centre doors
     
  26. PFX

    PFX Member

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    Perhaps it should but sadly, it can't.

    Despite your discomfort, and unless you have some way of producing unlimited amounts of money for railway heritage, then the term business case is all too relevant to preserved railways. The hard truth is that basic economics is the prime factor involved in any preservation work.
     
  27. Cyberbeagle

    Cyberbeagle Member

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    I wish that was the case, but in today's world with increasing regulation we have to act more and more in that manner. PFX put it very well!

    Secrecy? More "discretion" than anything else. While we at DCDR may have voted in favour some time ago, we knew MRSI hadn't. There was no way we would have prejudged that vote, and MRSI may have voted "no". And yes, we have been in discussions for some considerable time. But I'm not sure how an open vote is being "secretive".

    And most importantly, there are still some variables to consider, such as final approval for the transfer of a set from the DRD and NIR (they may not have been sympathetic towards the objective of preserving of a set) So, there's been quite a bit of work in the background which could not be publicised.

    However, I did want to challenge some of the misconceptions that have been floating about here that the DCDR is anti-80s, when in fact there is a good groundswell of goodwill towards the 80s amongst our membership, myself included. If we get the Ballydugan line, a push-pull unit will be very useful. That's the "business case" I was talking about!
     
    Last edited: 19 Jan 2012
  28. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    MRSI members were told last night that NIR needed approval from the (Northern Ireland) Department of Regional Development to transfer a set to Downpatrick and that they had obtained this approval
     
  29. Cyberbeagle

    Cyberbeagle Member

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    That's it exactly. NIR needs the DRD's approval as they need to prove Translink is getting "value for money" for the disposal of assets. If one is to be preserved, it will be under an economic appraisal that shows that a preserved unit will earn more to the local NI economy via its contribution to tourism than sold for scrap. The DRD have agreed this in principle, subject to their receipt of this economic appraisal which will be prepared by NIR.

    So fingers crossed. :)
     
    Last edited: 19 Jan 2012
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