No drinking and no drunks policy?

[GodAtum]

I agree that merseyrail have one but surely they arent the only TOC with a problem with drunks? Im sure no TOC in London has an anti-dink and no drunks allowed to travel policy, FCC and Southern spring to mind?

 

[ainsworth74]

Well the Byelaws contain provisions to prevent people from travelling drunk. It's a question of enforcement, Merseyrail (after that horrible accident) decided to enforce it. The rest of GBs TOCs not so much. The specific Byelaw:

4. Intoxication and possession of intoxicating liquor

(1) No person shall enter or remain on the railway where such person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway as a result of being in a state of intoxication.

(2) Where reasonable notice is, or has been, given prohibiting intoxicating liquor on any train service, no person shall have any intoxicating liquor with him on it, or attempt to enter such a train with intoxicating liquor with him.

(3) Where an authorised person reasonably believes that any person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway, or has with him intoxicating liquor contrary to Byelaw 4(2), an authorised person may:

(i) require him to leave the railway; and
(ii) prevent him entering or remaining on the railway until an authorised person is satisfied that he has no intoxicating liquor with him and/or is no longer in an unfit condition.​

So the provisions are right there which means that effectively all TOCs already have this policy, it's just a question of enforcement. So a better question might be: 'Why do no TOCs, other than Merseyrail, enforce this provision of the Byelaws?'

One thing worth noting is that Scot-Rail have become a 'dry' TOC after, I think, 2200 on all services except the Sleepers.

 

[Swirlz]

So the provisions are right there which means that effectively all TOCs already have this policy, it's just a question of enforcement. So a better question might be: 'Why do no TOCs, other than Merseyrail, enforce this provision of the Byelaws?'

.

Probably because they don't want staff getting into conflict with customers.
Merseyrail has 60+ booking offices staffed during running hours, with RPI teams, Byelaw Enforcement teams and a central control room. All trains have guards. Lots and lots of staff around, so the enforcement is fairly easy and at minimal extra cost because staff already exist.

Merseyrail take the risk of putting staff in a position of danger by confronting a drunk, potentially alone. They presumably (try to) mitigate this by training and backup response times.

If you think of say, Arriva Trains Wales, lots of their stations are unstaffed. Barriers are not constantly operating, and, of course, alcohol is sold to passengers on their trains who have probably already had enough. Who do you get to enforce it? A train has 1 ticket collector, he is hardly going to put himself up against 3-4 drunks, whilst miles away from the nearest train (or police!) station, nor is the trolley dolly likely to refuse to serve them, for fear of conflict/violence.

The cost is probably compared against definite cost of employing & training staff to deal with the issues, versus an unlikely one of cost of dealing with an incident (like James Street).

Incidentally, alcohol is not banned on Merseyrail services IMO. Reasonable notice has certainly NOT been given at any Wirral Line stations, including Chester. That "We can say no" poster only appears on the Underground stations. They can't just say, on the train, no alcohol. It's not an offence unless sufficient notice is given.

 

[crispy1978]

I can't abide drunks on trains, but I do like to have a couple of beers on the train, especially if I am travelling on my own. I can travel for 3 hours, and perhaps have 4 beers - but that wouldn't cause me to be drunk, or become aggressive, loud, obnoxious, etc - but I understand not everyone handles their beer in the same way.

 

[ainsworth74]

Probably because they don't want staff getting into conflict with customers.

The cost is probably compared against definite cost of employing & training staff to deal with the issues, versus an unlikely one of cost of dealing with an incident (like James Street).

That would be my take also. That being said I think it would be possible for the TOCs to target problem stations. For example York on Saturday nights. Currently the policy at York seems to be to get them off the station and on trains as fast as possible and then let sober passengers and guards deal with them. It would be nice if they took a hard line and enforced 4(1) instead at this one location.

Incidentally, alcohol is not banned on Merseyrail services IMO. Reasonable notice has certainly NOT been given at any Wirral Line stations, including Chester. That "We can say no" poster only appears on the Underground stations. They can't just say, on the train, no alcohol. It's not an offence unless sufficient notice is given.

I suspect that they're actively enforcing 4(1) (which does not require reasonable notice) and then only enforcing 4(2) for specific events and possibly specific locations, like race days at Aintree.

 

[Swirlz]

Just searched Google and this turned up:

Passengers are reminded that in accordance with Railway Bye-law 4.2,
alcohol is not permitted to be consumed on stations and trains on the
following routes: Pontypridd to Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr; and
between Caerphilly and Rhymney

http://www.arrivatrainswales.co.uk/WorkArea/linkit.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&ItemID=3709&libID=4144 (page 2)

No idea if it is enforced though! Seems to be a (rare) example of a total and permanent ban on designated routes.

 

[tjl599]

The Welsh example is due to continued abusive and destructive behavior by certain groups of passengers in the evenings on Valley Lines services. Unfortunately a minority have stopped the majority from enjoying a drink on these services

 

[jopsuk]

Scotrail have an evening ban

 

[Mojo]

The Welsh example is due to continued abusive and destructive behavior by certain groups of passengers in the evenings on Valley Lines services. Unfortunately a minority have stopped the majority from enjoying a drink on these services

Although I'd argue that the journeys in question are typically so short that if people struggle to not have a drink on these services for the short time they are on them then perhaps that might indicate some more underlying problems.

 

[DelayRepay]

Im sure no TOC in London has an anti-dink and no drunks allowed to travel policy, FCC and Southern spring to mind?

TFL have their alcohol ban on their trains/buses/trams/stations. They don't seem to mind drunk people travelling though.

FCC don't have a ban but even if they did it wouldn't be effective since apart from a small number of RPIS they don't have any staff on trains to enforce it.

 

[Jeremy B]

I can't abide drunks on trains, but I do like to have a couple of beers on the train, especially if I am travelling on my own. I can travel for 3 hours, and perhaps have 4 beers - but that wouldn't cause me to be drunk, or become aggressive, loud, obnoxious, etc - but I understand not everyone handles their beer in the same way.

Excellent post which sums it up really. Mrs B & myself had the misfortune to return on a Saturday night East Coast service from Edinburgh which seemed to be full of loud drunk people. Despite moving seats twice into different coaches we were unable to escape these pests. The ticket man was swamped with complaints about them.

 

[breadfan]

4(2) and 4(3) are also bit sexist.

 

[Jock]

Excellent post which sums it up really. Mrs B & myself had the misfortune to return on a Saturday night East Coast service from Edinburgh which seemed to be full of loud drunk people. Despite moving seats twice into different coaches we were unable to escape these pests. The ticket man was swamped with complaints about them.

Oh I quite agree, I travel a lot on the 0952 ex Aberdeen. I don't know what it is with that train, but the humans (and I use that term loosely) turn into animals with a drink in them shortly after crossing the forth bridge.

I do recall an occasion where one set of gentleman started jumping on tables and the seats, much to the fright of other passengers and myself.

Another fine example is that of the 2100 (I think) From Kings Cross - On departure from York that can be a nightmareish experience sometimes, the Train Guard on that service forever intervening with Drunk Pests

Why East Coast just don't ban alcohol consumption I don't know.

 

[wellhouse]

First TPE ban alcohol on Saturday evening services from York to Middlesborough.

 

[142094]

The ex-Aberdeen trains will be full of workers from the rigs going home for shore leave. East Coast 1st class is normally full of them.

 

[Yew]

The robin hood line has a ban, they have signs and everything.. Of course the actual level of enforcement....

 

[mister-sparky]

Alcohol should be banned by every TOC, at all times of day. And it definitely should be banned from being sold on trains and in stations. There is no reason whatsoever to have an alcoholic drink on a train. If you need to quench your thirst then there are plenty of other drinks to choose from. There is nothing worse than feeling threatened by a drunk person on a train and feeling helpless.

 

[ainsworth74]

4(2) and 4(3) are also bit sexist.

It's just the way that the whole document is written:

25. Interpretation

(4) Gender

Unless the context requires to the contrary, words importing one gender shall include the other gender.​

 

[WelshBluebird]

In terms of the south wales valley lines, in my experience it depends heavily on the staff onboard the train. Some staff are quite strict and will ask you to put unopened cans / bottles away, while I have also seen some staff just ignore people drinking on those services.

 

[swj99]

4(2) and 4(3) are also bit sexist.

Not at all. There's a get out clause in Section 25 of the byelaws, under Interpretation, where it says,

(4) Gender

Unless the context requires to the contrary, words importing one gender shall
include the other gender.

Why East Coast just don't ban alcohol consumption I don't know.

Maybe there's no political or social will to do this, or even to tackle the problem by dealing with the actual culprits, rather than just having a blanket ban, which affects everybody, not just the people who act in an anti social and degenerate way when under the influence of drink, glue, drugs, or whatever else it may be.

Alcohol should be banned by every TOC, at all times of day. And it definitely should be banned from being sold on trains and in stations. There is no reason whatsoever to have an alcoholic drink on a train. If you need to quench your thirst then there are plenty of other drinks to choose from. There is nothing worse than feeling threatened by a drunk person on a train and feeling helpless.

I think the existing rules should be enforced so that the people who drink and still behave in a civilised and acceptable manner aren't penalised or affected by those who really need to be dealt with. As I've said before in threads where the subject of discussion was unacceptable behaviour on trains and railway property, banning alcohol is I believe a cop out, when what really needs to happen is that those who behave badly are dealt with.

What we seem to have at the moment is a situation where there is no consistent enforcement of the rules, ie it's against the bylaws to be drunk on a train, but many people are effectively allowed onto stations and trains whilst intoxicated to the extent that they are a danger to themselves and to others around them. Every once in a while, the police may be quoted in the gutter press as saying they need more powers to deal with antisocial behaviour. But they don't at all, because they are already empowered to deal with problems like this.

The real problem, and I mean in society generally, not just on the railways, is that people will continue to behave badly all the time they believe they can get away with doing so. It is the lack of enforcement that I believe is the problem. What is needed is for bad behaviour to be challenged and dealt with. Penalising the many for the transgressions of the few is a slippery slope which leads to and perpetuates a 'them and us' mentality. By all means punish the perpetrators, but leave everyone else alone. To do otherwise causes resentment and offends the sense of fair play in reasonable law abiding people. Policing by consent is a two way street. I believe one reason so many regular ordinary people nowadays are becoming increasingly interested only in themselves is that they are fed up with being inconvenienced by the behaviour of the few. They often see the collective punishment mentality as a cop out, and as something which may have been acceptable in a school playground in the 1970s but is neither relevant or acceptable in Britain in the 21st century.

Having rules, regulations and laws specifically targeted to deal with problems, but failing to use them is ridiculous, makes a mockery of the system, and sends out entirely the wrong message. My translation of the current message is, “It’s only illegal if you get caught !"
If people knew that if they went out, got drunk and behaved in an anti social and disorderly manner, they were very likely to be arrested, fined, etc, there would be a much better and more effective deterrent than there is now. Until that deterrent is in place, it might be more accurate to rename the Friday night trains ‘The Vomit Trail’. The next generation of trains could be built in a similar way to a wet room, with cleaning accomplished ready for the next day simply by removing a plug from the floor, and turning on a water tap.
Realistically, I don’t envisage either of the above possibilities happening anytime soon.

 

[yorksrob]

Alcohol should be banned by every TOC, at all times of day. And it definitely should be banned from being sold on trains and in stations. There is no reason whatsoever to have an alcoholic drink on a train. If you need to quench your thirst then there are plenty of other drinks to choose from. There is nothing worse than feeling threatened by a drunk person on a train and feeling helpless.

Er no thanks!

If I ever feel tempted to live under such a draconian system I'll move to Saudi.

 

[Chapeltom]

Alcohol should be banned by every TOC, at all times of day. And it definitely should be banned from being sold on trains and in stations. There is no reason whatsoever to have an alcoholic drink on a train. If you need to quench your thirst then there are plenty of other drinks to choose from. There is nothing worse than feeling threatened by a drunk person on a train and feeling helpless.

Your post could easily be from the comments section of a Daily Mail article. Right, so your saying because of absolute tiny minority of people who act like prats there should be a network wide ban on alcoholic beverages? That simply will not happen and saying "can't people drink something else?". Alcohol is legal, and when drank in reasonable measures 99.9% of people are fine. Now if I'm venturing 3-4, even 6+ hours on a journey I will have a drink more often than not to relax me.

Sports fans will probably stop using the train, you may as well be on a coach for 5 hours if you can't have a drink on the train. Having a few beers before the football is part of the culture, part of going to away matches.

Like it or not, alcohol is here to stay and like it or not not all those who drink act like idiots. I've never threatened anyone while drunk and I've never been threatened by anyone. The majority of drunks are fine, just a fraction of those act like idiots.

 

[crispy1978]

Just turn the heating up - it will soon make them stop drinking and fall asleep!!

 

[LexyBoy]

Why not ban men, they're responsible for the vast majority of violent and abusive behaviour, drunk or sober. Much easier to enforce too.

 

[jopsuk]

Why East Coast just don't ban alcohol consumption I don't know.

because on the vast majority of services there's no problems (I've used them quite a lot, never had a problem with drunks yet) and sales of alcohol at the buffet are a tidyy little earner, whilst in 1st on weekdays the offer of complementary drinks is part of the package.

 

[mrcheek]

Alcohol should be banned by every TOC, at all times of day. And it definitely should be banned from being sold on trains and in stations. There is no reason whatsoever to have an alcoholic drink on a train. If you need to quench your thirst then there are plenty of other drinks to choose from. There is nothing worse than feeling threatened by a drunk person on a train and feeling helpless.

I totally agree with this. As has been made clear in this thread, enforcement of the existing vague rules is near impossible. Such a ban would only affect a tiny minority of travellers, and would benefit far more of them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Er no thanks!

If I ever feel tempted to live under such a draconian system I'll move to Saudi.

why didnt you move there when they banned smoking then?

 

[dave55uk]

Alcohol should be banned by every TOC, at all times of day. And it definitely should be banned from being sold on trains and in stations. There is no reason whatsoever to have an alcoholic drink on a train. If you need to quench your thirst then there are plenty of other drinks to choose from. There is nothing worse than feeling threatened by a drunk person on a train and feeling helpless.

Totally agree.

 

[jopsuk]

why didnt you move there when they banned smoking then?

Drinking is not like smoking at all. The vast majority of people that drink alcohol cause absolutely zero problems for anyone else. They drink more or less responsibly, and don't become loud/violent/etc when drunk. Those who do become violent when drunk tend to be aggresive idiots when sober too.

Second hand smoke causes problems for those in the vicinity regardless of the attitude of the smoker. The two are not comparable.

 

[yorksrob]

why didnt you move there when they banned smoking then?

Possibly because I don't smoke

I've also stated on previous threads that I'm personally not against the traditional smoking compartment.

 

[Chapeltom]

I totally agree with this. As has been made clear in this thread, enforcement of the existing vague rules is near impossible. Such a ban would only affect a tiny minority of travellers, and would benefit far more of them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


why didnt you move there when they banned smoking then?

It would only affect a tiny minority of passengers, really? I'd think it would affect quite a few people to be honest, those who buy drink on the train, those who consume alcohol in 1st class, sports fans, late night revellers, and just ordinary folk enjoying a drink on the train.



I think as a general point maybe as I'm a student, I see this differently to others.