North East Round Robin.

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hstmatt

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Hi i might go on a North East Round Robbin and i would like to know if you can use it on Grand Central.
Thanks.
 
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MidnightFlyer

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I don't believe you can. According to my source for this (TRUK's Rover Ticket Guide 2012) the only rover / ranger ticket they accept is the All Line Rover.
 

Deerfold

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I don't believe you can. According to my source for this (TRUK's Rover Ticket Guide 2012) the only rover / ranger ticket they accept is the All Line Rover.

Although I also don't think that is valid they do accept the various West Yorkshire Day Rovers.
 

323235

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Although National Rail Enquiries do say that it isn't valid on Grand Central and Northern Rail publicity also concurs, it might be worth having a word with the Guard where you intend to board.

No harm in asking, they can only say No.
 

sonic2009

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I'd assume you only intend to use it between Northallerton & York in either direction, I agree that it's not valid on Grand Central, as they do not receive any money for the ticket, and also due to them being a OAO.
 

yorkie

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The National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC) Condition 10 states that a ticket may prohibit travel in the trains of a particular Train Company, "Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket."

I'm sure if you ask Grand Central if they comply with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage they will say "yes", but if they say "no" then we need to contact the relevant bodies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I agree that it's not valid on Grand Central, as they do not receive any money for the ticket...
Ah, that old chestnut!

Revenue allocation does not determine validity.

I doubt EC get any money from the sale of a Peterborough-Huntingdon Season, or a Huntingdon-London single or return, but the combination is valid on a non-stop Peterborough to London train.

I'm sure XC don't get any money from the sale of a York-Church Fenton Season, or a Church Fenton-Leeds single or return, but the combination is valid on a non-stop York to Leeds train.

The NRCoC determines validity.

... and also due to them being a OAO.
They either accept inter-available tickets and adhere to the rules, or they don't get any money from them at all, as I understand it.
 

cuccir

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They probably don't want it to be valid - for example, they are not listed on the train companies at National Rail Enquiries. But it doesn't say 'Not Grand Central' on the ticket*, and much of the promotional material suggests that it is valid (eg Page 4 on this map says 'valid on all operators').

Essentially -we would suspect that it's not the intention that it is valid. In practice, they've not gone around advertising that it isn't valid/marking the ticket in a way that would be clear to the average passenger. So yes, it's valid (Northallerton-York only) but anyone using it that way may have hassle if a member of GC staff does not think it is valid.

* I think? If it does say that then I stand corrected!
 

Deerfold

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They probably don't want it to be valid - for example, they are not listed on the train companies at National Rail Enquiries. But it doesn't say 'Not Grand Central' on the ticket*, and much of the promotional material suggests that it is valid (eg Page 4 on this map says 'valid on all operators').

My previous comment was based on looking at NRE. If I'd just read the leaflet (which doesn't seem unreasonable) I'd have assumed it was valid - and if it's wrong, something for GC to take up with Northern as I wouldn't know if NRE hadn't been updated since GC started - the Northern leaflet is dated 2011 and NRE 2004 so I'd assume the leaflet was the more up to date info.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Northern leaflet for the Round Robin (and all NE Rovers etc) states: 'Valid on all train operating companies' services on the maps shown with the exception of Grand Central'.
 

yorkie

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I'd bring a copy of any leaflets that say "valid on all operators" and I'd also bring a printout of Condition 10 of the NRCoC. Of course you must remain calm, and be polite and assertive.

If challenged I'd ask "Does GC comply with the NRCoC?" "Are you familiar with Condition 10?" rather than go out with all guns blazing. Also if the answer to either is "no" then that is useful Evidence to be used in a letter to the Company if the ticket is not honoured.

The most they can ask for is £7 for a Northallerton-York single (£3.50 if you're under 16 which IIRC you are).
 

richw

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I'd bring a copy of any leaflets that say "valid on all operators" and I'd also bring a printout of Condition 10 of the NRCoC. Of course you must remain calm, and be polite and assertive.

If challenged I'd ask "Does GC comply with the NRCoC?" "Are you familiar with Condition 10?" rather than go out with all guns blazing. Also if the answer to either is "no" then that is useful Evidence to be used in a letter to the Company if the ticket is not honoured

The post above you says the leaflets say valid on all operators with exception of grand central. So surely that is sufficient for the ticket to be invalid on GC
 

yorkie

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The post above you says the leaflets say valid on all operators with exception of grand central. So surely that is sufficient for the ticket to be invalid on GC
I don't follow; can you clarify please?

For example, are you suggesting that the leaflet over-rides NRCoC Condition 10, or do you believe that NRCoC Condition 10 states "shown on a leaflet" rather than "shown on the ticket", or are you suggesting GC does not comply with the NRCoC?

(Also the leaflet says "Valid on all train operating companies’ services on the map shown" when I click that link)
 

Solent&Wessex

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I don't follow; can you clarify please?

For example, are you suggesting that the leaflet over-rides NRCoC Condition 10, or do you believe that NRCoC Condition 10 states "shown on a leaflet" rather than "shown on the ticket", or are you suggesting GC does not comply with the NRCoC?

(Also the leaflet says "Valid on all train operating companies’ services on the map shown" when I click that link)

That link is the old, 2011, leaflet. The current, 2012 leaflet, can be found HERE.

The map here for the North East Round Robin does say that it is not valid on Grand Central.
 

transmanche

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Interestingly, that leaflet says "Valid on all train operating companies’ services on the map shown" for the North East Round Robin - but "Valid on all train operating companies’ services on the map shown except Grand Central" for the Tyne & Tees Day Ranger.
 

yorkie

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And was, rather like certain West Yorkshire Metro documentation, written by someone who either has not read, or does not understand, the NRCoC!
 

Solent&Wessex

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Interestingly, that leaflet says "Valid on all train operating companies’ services on the map shown" for the North East Round Robin - but "Valid on all train operating companies’ services on the map shown except Grand Central" for the Tyne & Tees Day Ranger.

I refer you to the 2012 leaflet I have linked to in my previous post. The 2012 leaflet has all the maps on one page, and one set of footnotes, which say "...except Grand Central".
 

cuccir

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Yes, the 2012 leaflet makes it clearer.

Still, the Conditions of Carriage stand:

10. Tickets valid only in trains of particular Train Companies
The validity of a ticket may:
a) be restricted to; or
b) prohibit
travel in the trains of a particular Train Company or Train Companies. Any such restriction or prohibition will be shown on the ticket.

This is also pretty clear. It's possible the tickets have been amended to say 'NOT GRAND CENTRAL' or 'NOT GC' or some such, of course.

Whether you'd try to use it then, comes down to whether the potential hassle is worth it, and perhaps to morals ('The company has tried to invalidate it and I should respect that' v 'It is up to TOCs to follow the NRCOC properly, and we shouldn't let them off if they don't').
 

reb0118

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Why do Grand Central not wish to accept it? I assume that they receive a portion of revenue from the point to point tickets sold from York to Northallerton so why do they not get a portion from the "Round Robin"?

Maybe there is a cost to "buying in" to these Rover/Ranger/Round Robins?
 

yorkie

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It will be some argument over money. But the fact is that TOCs have to accept tickets that are valid, in accordance with NRCoC, irrespective of whether they gain any revenue from them.

I doubt GC get any money from the sale of Poppleton-York Seasons, plus York-Grantham & Grantham-London CDRs, but the combination is valid on non-stop trains, all tickets are routed Any Permitted, and GC would be obliged to accept the combination (which glynn80 confirmed with ATOC a few years ago).

Revenue does not determine validity but there will always be some within the industry who believe that it does.
 

calc7

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...For no simpler reason than how is a passenger meant to know or care who receives the revenue from the sale of a given walk-up ticket.
 

reb0118

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Hopefully not going off topic but for comparisons sake:-

Freedom of the North West Rovers are valid to Dumfries. ScotRail are the only provider of services from Carlisle to Dumfries. ScotRail accept NW RRs but probably only receive a very small amount from each rover sold - however they will receive lots of small amounts from passengers who have never been near to crossing the border with said tickets. At the very least ScotRail will break even but will probably make a small profit on accepting NW RRs - also the goodwill from accepting them outweighs all that.

Grand Central should think likewise.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Why do Grand Central not wish to accept it? I assume that they receive a portion of revenue from the point to point tickets sold from York to Northallerton so why do they not get a portion from the "Round Robin"? . . .
It will be some argument over money. But the fact is that TOCs have to accept tickets that are valid, in accordance with NRCoC, irrespective of whether they gain any revenue from them.
It seems perverse, doesn't it?

The point which I think these conflicting messages tells us that there are different bodies who are liable.

A defence that I have received from TOCs when challenged from cases of pax off-route/off-TOC is that they had received no revenue from the ticket as sold.
Now that may be true, and they may also be bound to convey ticket-holding passengers, but if they are carrying passengers without receiving any revenue then they are not likely to be accepting any of the other responsibilities either; such as arranging to get passengers to their booked destination, insurance, liabilities etc.
But more to the point, there's no redress against a Company for a dissatisfied passenger if that passenger hadn't been (commercially) a customer.
 

cuccir

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if they are carrying passengers without receiving any revenue then they are not likely to be accepting any of the other responsibilities either; such as arranging to get passengers to their booked destination, insurance, liabilities etc.
But more to the point, there's no redress against a Company for a dissatisfied passenger if that passenger hadn't been (commercially) a customer.

Really? Surely by agreeing to the NRCOC the TOC is accepting those responsibilities?

When you've heard a defence that no money has been received before, have you ever heard it be successful?
 

yorkie

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Well, it's a good job the likes of RSP exist then, to hold it all together :)

It is true that an open access operator could in theory choose not to consider any passenger who does not give them revenue a customer, by withdrawing from their obligations as laid out in the Ticketing Settlement Agreement, however that decision would have dire financial consequences for the Company, as they would no longer be a licensed TOC and the sale of its own tickets alone would not be able to keep them afloat. I am also not convinced that they would be allowed to utilise the paths allocated to them they do if they were not compliant with the TSA. So I think we can conclude that GC will not choose to withdraw from the TSA!

For franchise holders, adherence to the TSA is a mandatory franchise commitment.

An example of a TOC trying to get out of its obligations and being forced to adhere to the TSA is when WSMR refused to honour Rte: via Birmingham tickets on the basis that they recieved no revenue for them. What was an internal railway dispute over revenue allocation became a case of customers not having valid tickets honoured. A few 'phone calls between a member of this forum and RSP resulted in the WSMR MD announcing on this forum that the tickets would be accepted after all.

I can think of a huge number of ticket combinations where a particular TOC would almost certainly get no revenue, yet be obliged to convey the customer. If any parent Company is unhappy with that principle then they must not bid to win any franchise and must not bid to create an open access operator!

In a ticketing sense, we still have one railway, and that must never change.
 

paul1609

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Nice sentiments but the current ticketing system is doomed. Quite apart from the moral fact that the extortionate fares in the South east are unfairly subsidising ultra cheap tickets in the Northern PTE and unsustainably cheap advance tickets on inter city routes which we then are told have capacity problems!
if you want to buy a ticket from my local station to london in the morning peak what do you buy? A return to london of some sort?
No a super off peak return to Brimingham (nearly 3 times the distance) which is valid all throughout the morning peak and is £13 cheaper, what a farce.
My money is on the current system being gone within 5 years.
 

142094

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To put it into context, I've used this ticket before from Sunderland to Eaglescliffe by having a word with the GC guard.
 

yorksrob

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Nice sentiments but the current ticketing system is doomed. Quite apart from the moral fact that the extortionate fares in the South east are unfairly subsidising ultra cheap tickets in the Northern PTE and unsustainably cheap advance tickets on inter city routes which we then are told have capacity problems!
if you want to buy a ticket from my local station to london in the morning peak what do you buy? A return to london of some sort?
No a super off peak return to Brimingham (nearly 3 times the distance) which is valid all throughout the morning peak and is £13 cheaper, what a farce.
My money is on the current system being gone within 5 years.

Does the old NSE area actually turn a profit at the moment ? if not it can hardly be said to be subsidising the rest of the country's railway.
 
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