Northen Rail False Fare Evasion Claim HELP PLEASE!!

[colpepper]

This thread isnt about the value of fares on the railway. Its someone who has a serious problem on their hands because they have fraudulently bought a ticket that they should not have bought and have now got caught doing so.

If yoru unable to give proper and helpful advice rather then what you did post then you should really stay quite far away from the thread in itself.

I was called a troll who should be moderated for arguing that the chap (taken only on his version of events) doesn't sound like a criminal. It's an opinion. message boards....opinions... ya know?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

This is the only part of the Forum for advice, not discussion, gents.

 

[Ferret]

I was called a troll who should be moderated for arguing that the chap (taken only on his version of events) doesn't sound like a criminal. It's an opinion. message boards....opinions... ya know?

Well, you do seem to have an uncanny knack of seeing which way a thread is going and then arguing the opposite - the usual tactic of a troll. I'm happy to be proved wrong by you though - and you can start by thinking about posting responsibly, especially where somebody like the OP in this thread has asked for some constructive advice about what to do next.

 

[colpepper]

Hang on a tickety-boo. As long as I am allowed to do so I shall put the rail users point of view. In the short time I've been on here I've heard the travelling public described by rail employees in a number of unsavoury ways and have encountered pedantry and authoritarianism. Those may or may not be implicit in the job but pointing them out when they occur is not trolling.

As it happens I've spent many pleasant rail journeys discussing life, railways and everything with the guard, no doubt in dereliction of his duty to some here, so let's get off those high horses about other poster's intentions because they happen to be off message.

 

[MikeWh]

If you offered a credit card and can get the railway to admit their machine was broken it's definitely worth a fight.

This was your first post on this thread, at the bottom of page 1. In view of the content of the original post this was a spectacularly ill thought out response. Whilst I'm sorry if you don't like the way you have been criticised for it, the fact remains that it was wrong. Many of the threads in this forum are very serious topics where general internet banter is NOT appreciated.

And for the record, I neither work for the forum nor the railway.

 

[colpepper]

Many of the threads in this forum are very serious topics where general internet banter is NOT appreciated.

I was attempting to counter the lynch mob from their talk of hanging, transportation to the colonies or live gibbeting. If being a convicted criminal is the consequence of asking for the wrong ticket my cheeriness was clearly misplaced.

 

[yorkie]

Burscough Bridge has a ticket office which should be open before the first Manchester bound train and there are no signs telling you, you can buy on the train (in fact most Northern stations now have a sign or poster saying you must buy before you board). Unless the ticket office was closed for some reason or a railway official told the OP they could board without a ticket then the OP has committed an offence under railway byelaws. The fact that the conductors credit card machine wasn't working should be irrelevant as the OP should have had a ticket before boarding the train. Whilst there are no penalty fares in Northern, normal conditions of carriage apply.

I don't think this is helpful, and no-one would be prosecuted for buying on board a Northern train from Burscough. What happened before the OP got to his destination is, largely, irrelevant as it appears the OP is being prosecuted for asking for a ticket for only a small portion of his journey, which means he is likely being charged under the 1889 Regulation of Railways Act.

Given that the fare from Salford Crescent is around £2 and from Burscough is £7 or £8 dependant on type of ticket, surely the OP must have noticed the fare was too cheap even if they had asked for the wrong ticket by mistake. Had the OP not been challenged, then they would have walked away without paying the correct fare.

That will probably be what the prosecution will allege, yes.

while not condoning your wrong ticketing purchasing, did the ticket inspector only know that you had not bought the correct ticket because you told him? I'm a bit confused as to why he wanted to look at your ticket straight after you had bought it?

The inspector must have been aware of the conversation at the ticket window.

This thread isnt about the value of fares on the railway. Its someone who has a serious problem on their hands because they have fraudulently bought a ticket that they should not have bought and have now got caught doing so.

If you unable to give proper and helpful advice rather then what you did post then you should really stay quite far away from the thread in itself.

Agreed. I would say that it works both ways; people who are unable to provide helpful advice and just want to moan at fares being poor value while not discussing the fares in question in the topic, especially on a topic where someone needs advice, should really consider not posting. Likewise someone who wants to have a moan at passengers (whether in general or referring to the OP) and not provide advice to the customers who request it, should consider leaving the thread alone too. That way a thread won't get hijacked by a debate between two completely opposing 'sides' on completely off-topic matters Well, I can wish!

I was called a troll who should be moderated for arguing that the chap (taken only on his version of events) doesn't sound like a criminal. It's an opinion. message boards....opinions... ya know?

If you have a problem with a name you have been called on any post, click the report icon

in the bottom left corner of that post, and refer the matters to moderators for consideration. Nothing will be gained by discussing it on this, or any other, thread.

Hang on a tickety-boo. As long as I am allowed to do so I shall put the rail users point of view.

There's no point in posting from a "rail users" point of view in a thread where someone may be prosecuted and seeks advice. He needs advice from legal experts (e.g. DaveNewcastle) or experts in the field of revenue collection (e.g. kwvr45).

 

[Ferret]

I was attempting to counter the lynch mob from their talk of hanging, transportation to the colonies or live gibbeting. If being a convicted criminal is the consequence of asking for the wrong ticket my cheeriness was clearly misplaced.

No, if I was part of a lynch mob, I'd be suggesting the OP end up in prison or the stocks or something! The reality is that the OP could be prosecuted under the RoR Act as 'shorting' is defrauding the railway. If you want to familiarise yourself with the relevant Acts, google the Regulation of Railways Act (1889 I think!), and also the Railway Byelaws. I'm afraid that the OP could be prosecuted under either one of those, and whether you think that's harsh is I'm sorry to say, entirely irrelevant!

 

[scrapy]

Whilst I am aware that it is unlikely that the OP would be prosecuted for this alone it would probably be brought up if the case goes to court and is therefore relevant. Northern do prosecute for not buying from staffed stations, I am aware of a few cases where people have been prosecuted for this during a specific operation.

The operation was in conjunction with another TOC where a train originated at an unbarriered staffed station. The first station was unmanned however on this occasion was barriered by RPIs and BTP.

Saying Northern will not prosecute is unhelpful as firstly it isn't true, and it may lead people to board without tickets and think its OK.

 

[colpepper]

No, if I was part of a lynch mob, I'd be suggesting the OP end up in prison or the stocks or something! The reality is that the OP could be prosecuted under the RoR Act as 'shorting' is defrauding the railway. If you want to familiarise yourself with the relevant Acts, google the Regulation of Railways Act (1889 I think!), and also the Railway Byelaws. I'm afraid that the OP could be prosecuted under either one of those, and whether you think that's harsh is I'm sorry to say, entirely irrelevant!

I hope he keeps us informed of how things go with his letter to the TOC, purely for the record.

 

[Ferret]

I hope he keeps us informed of how things go with his letter to the TOC, purely for the record.

Me too! My best guess is that if the OP offers to pay the fare that he owes *and* any admin fee, this matter won't reach Court.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Me too! My best guess is that if the OP offers to pay the fare that he owes *and* any admin fee, this matter won't reach Court.

My gut feeling is the same. I suspect a "Caution and Collect" - ie a stern letter telling you not to do it again and cough up £50 or so and that may be the end of the matter hopefully. I think in many cases the TOCs prefer this for first time relatively minor offences anyway as it is easier to administer, and ensures they get the money in full quicker.

 

[colpepper]

It would be the sensible thing given the circumstances.

 

[Ferret]

It would be the sensible thing given the circumstances.

Well, I'm going to assume that this is the first time the OP has done something wrong with regard to railway ticketing, and agree with you!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

As I've been mentioned 2 or 3 times on this thread, I'll confirm here and now that I've been in touch with the OP and will assist, if I can.

For 2 reasons I will do this off-forum.
Firstly, it would be unhelpful to allow the other party to any legal dispute the opportunity to read the defendant's evidence on this public forum.
Secondly, it would be unwise to give others an insight into how they might travel without a valid ticket (and perhaps avoid prosecution?).

Sorry folks. The OP or I will let you know the outcome, but until then, well . . . .
I'm sure you'll understand.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Firstly, it would be unhelpful to allow the other party to any legal dispute the opportunity to read the defendant's evidence on this public forum..

That would happen in disclosure anyway, surely?

 

[Ferret]

As I've been mentioned 2 or 3 times on this thread, I'll confirm here and now that I've been in touch with the OP and will assist, if I can.

For 2 reasons I will do this off-forum.
Firstly, it would be unhelpful to allow the other party to any legal dispute the opportunity to read the defendant's evidence on this public forum.
Secondly, it would be unwise to give others an insight into how they might travel without a valid ticket (and perhaps avoid prosecution?).

Sorry folks. The OP or I will let you know the outcome, but until then, well . . . .
I'm sure you'll understand.

I thought you were quiet on this one! I understand, and I look forward to hearing the outcome!

 

[strange6]

I'll throw in my two pennies worth.
Seeing that you were in the wrong technically, I can see you paying the penalty fare. People and business will always avoid court when possible because it's too time consuming and costly for minor matters like this. Just take your financial medicine and learn from your mistake for the future. I'll break my own neck and kiss my @rse if you get a criminal conviction over this

 

[RPI]

I'll throw in my two pennies worth.
Seeing that you were in the wrong technically, I can see you paying the penalty fare. People and business will always avoid court when possible because it's too time consuming and costly for minor matters like this. Just take your financial medicine and learn from your mistake for the future. I'll break my own neck and kiss my @rse if you get a criminal conviction over this

You really don't know how TOC prosecutors work then! Most TOC's employ 3 or 4 full time prosecutors to deal with such cases and it is usually in their interest to prosecute as they wil have the court room for a whole day (on the non CPS days) and will put as many cases through as possible, why have a whole day at court to prosecute a couple of cases when they could do 10?

Having said that I don't know how Northern work but all of TPE's prosecutions are processed and prosecuted by FGW who have no quarms about taking such cases to court.

The best advice so far given was to write to Northern offering to pay the fare and admin cost's (make them an offer, the fare plus £30, they may go for it if the OP has no previous) but the TOC does not have to accept.

A solicitor may be able to mitigate but bear in mind that the legal fee's would probably be more than any fine and I don't think you can get legal aid for these "minor" offences and the duty solicitor at the court's won't usually touch these offences either.

Also be careful what you write back to them as they can use it in evidence!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I thought you were quiet on this one! I understand, and I look forward to hearing the outcome!

Sorry. I had some work to do.
I'll promise to try harder not to let that get in the way of posting on here in the future.

That would happen in disclosure anyway, surely?

Of course. But at the right time. And that time may not be reached, until when, we wouldn't wish to reveal, and who knows, some facts may be prejudicial!

 

[Ferret]

Sorry. I had some work to do.
I'll promise to try harder not to let that get in the way of posting on here in the future.

Work?! That's not allowed! You should know that posting on Rail UK is your number one priority!

 

[cuccir]

Whilst I am aware that it is unlikely that the OP would be prosecuted for this alone it would probably be brought up if the case goes to court and is therefore relevant. Northern do prosecute for not buying from staffed stations, I am aware of a few cases where people have been prosecuted for this during a specific operation.

The operation was in conjunction with another TOC where a train originated at an unbarriered staffed station. The first station was unmanned however on this occasion was barriered by RPIs and BTP.

Saying Northern will not prosecute is unhelpful as firstly it isn't true, and it may lead people to board without tickets and think its OK.

AFAIK this isn't a penalty fares area and outside of penalty fares areas, it is ok to board without a ticket, isnt it? Though you forgo the right to any discounts inc peak/off-peak. of course an appropriate ticket must be purchased on board or on arrival at the destination station. This the OP did;it's buying from the wrong station that is the issue here.

 

[strange6]

I often see people board trains from the likes of Wigan Wallgate and Bolton and ask the guard for a ticket when he comes around to check. I have never seen a guard question this activity - he just takes the money and dispenses the ticket.

 

[scotsman]

AFAIK this isn't a penalty fares area and outside of penalty fares areas, it is ok to board without a ticket, isnt it? Though you forgo the right to any discounts inc peak/off-peak. of course an appropriate ticket must be purchased on board or on arrival at the destination station. This the OP did;it's buying from the wrong station that is the issue here.

'fraid not pal. If you board a train without purchasing a ticket where suitable facilities were available, then you are breaking the law. It's up to individual TOC policy to enforce this or not. Some see it as an advantage to allow purchase onboard, others will PF or only sell full fare singles. Prosecution is generally only used where it is believed there was intent to defraud (not pay the fare at all)

 

[142094]

'fraid not pal. If you board a train without purchasing a ticket where suitable facilities were available, then you are breaking the law.

Are you just making it up as you go along? I think you need to clairfy this point first before you say anything else.

 

[scotsman]

Are you just making it up as you go along? I think you need to clairfy this point first before you say anything else.

Sorry, not the law, but the NRCoC

Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the
train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.

 

[transportphoto]

Sorry, not the law, but the NRCoC

Sorry, but the law aswell - see the railway by-laws - section VI IIRC.

 

[scotsman]

Sorry, but the law aswell - see the railway by-laws - section VI IIRC.

Thank you, I thought I was right in this case

 

[142094]

You missed an important bit out:

2. Requirement to hold a ticket

Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the
train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make.

If you travel in a train:

(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in any of Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22,
30, 35 and 39 apply;

you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special
terms ...

You haven't actually broken the law yet, as you can still pay for a full fare single/return.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry, but the law aswell - see the railway by-laws - section VI IIRC.

Section 6 is about Unacceptable behaviour, which document are you looking at?

 

[transportphoto]

Sorry - it's not section 6 then.
sorry