Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[LOL The Irony]

As far as seats are concerned, a 319 has 300 seats, a 323 has 284, so not much difference.
They were originally designed for the Cross City line in the West Midlands with good acceleration between closely spaced stations - anything like that on Northern that would be suitable?

Even then, they're rapid to 90 which should offset the 10MPH deficit to 319's.

 

[childwallblues]

That would be good for the south coast as the 313s do not have toilets

 

[6026KingJohn]

Even then, they're rapid to 90 which should offset the 10MPH deficit to 319's.

They were originally 100 mph units, reduced to 90 mph somewhere between 2004 & 2010 so could presumably be 100mph again.

 

[NoMorePacers]

As far as seats are concerned, a 319 has 300 seats, a 323 has 284, so not much difference.
They were originally designed for the Cross City line in the West Midlands with good acceleration between closely spaced stations - anything like that on Northern that would be suitable?

The aforementioned CLC would be if it had the correct infrastructure (which it doesn't unfortunately). Bolton line stoppers perhaps?

 

[LOL The Irony]

They were originally 100 mph units, reduced to 90 mph somewhere between 2004 & 2010 so could presumably be 100mph again.

They were? I thought they were always 90.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

As far as seats are concerned, a 319 has 300 seats, a 323 has 284, so not much difference.
They were originally designed for the Cross City line in the West Midlands with good acceleration between closely spaced stations - anything like that on Northern that would be suitable?

Realistically yes. Stopping services on the Glossop, Crewe, Stoke and Airport lines (and of course now the Liverpool via Chat Moss section) are all perfect for the 323s; and so in theory would platforms be for 3-car ones going up to Bolton.

 

[6026KingJohn]

They were? I thought they were always 90.

Yes, they were also used on some Birmingham to Liverpool services before Cross City trains went from 4tph to 6tph.
I checked a couple of Platform 5 books, shown as 100 in 2004 & 90 in 2010.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The aforementioned CLC would be if it had the correct infrastructure (which it doesn't unfortunately). Bolton line stoppers perhaps?

Quite. How we ended up not doing the CLC when it's a whole 30 miles or so unelectrified is just shocking - especially when you consider what level of service could have been provided using electric stock (not only the 'fast' Liverpool to Airport and then potentially other trains that go in/out of Piccadilly etc)...

Will go back to 323s to stop being off-topic. The 323s are also fitted with an interior similar to that of a Networker which means it is far better suited to Metro operations than the 319s. They do get off the mark quicker and I have no doubt that with some reasonable retiming the 319 timings could have up to 2-3 minutes shaved off on something like the Liverpool - Crewe via Man Airport.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Yes, they were also used on some Birmingham to Liverpool services before Cross City trains went from 4tph to 6tph.
I checked a couple of Platform 5 books, shown as 100 in 2004 & 90 in 2010.

And they did Northampton, from memory...

 

[LOL The Irony]

Yes, they were also used on some Birmingham to Liverpool services before Cross City trains went from 4tph to 6tph.
I checked a couple of Platform 5 books, shown as 100 in 2004 & 90 in 2010.

Surely it was a mis-print as I can't find anything about this anywhere else.

 

[Geeves]

Kinda off topic here but someone posted that the 323 was specifically designed for the cross city route. They were originally going onto the Wharfe and Aire Valley lines for the new electrification that had just gone up. Not sure why Leeds got 308s and the 323s went to Birmingham but it's all history now!

 

[LOL The Irony]

Kinda off topic here but someone posted that the 323 was specifically designed for the cross city route. They were originally going onto the Warfe and Aire Valley lines for the new electrification that had just gone up. Not sure why Leeds got 308s and the 323s went to Birmingham but it's all history now!

Wikipedia states that funding from the Government took too long and they opted for 308's as a stop-gap.

 

[childwallblues]

Yes, they were also used on some Birmingham to Liverpool services before Cross City trains went from 4tph to 6tph.
I checked a couple of Platform 5 books, shown as 100 in 2004 & 90 in 2010.

There was a Four Oaks to Liverpool booked for a 323 which went back to New Street at 1708

 

[Geeves]

Wikipedia states that funding from the Government took too long and they opted for 308's as a stop-gap.

That was some stop gap! Ha.

 

[Bevan Price]

For starters, Manchester Oxford Road doesn't allow it in Platform 1 (towards Preston), nor does Platform 3 (towards Manchester). That level of restriction is far too great at a place that requires flexibility.

Kearsley, Farnworth, Moses Gate, Blackrod, Adlington and Leyland are also no go; as are Salwick or Leyton (up only).

At Leyland, most platforms could easily be altered to accept longer trains - just clear all the weeds at the south end, resurface the platforms and remove the fences.

 

[js1000]

As expected that seems to indicate Porterbrook want all the 319s to convert to 769s. So even though none have run on the mainline yet, they still seem to have confidence in the project. I wonder how long it is before they announce 769s will be taken on as replacements for the 150s.

I think it was business driven if anything - the 319s were due to the leave the Northern franchise in 2025. They would be highly susceptible to being replaced with a new franchise bidder and manufacturer / ROSCO as part of a successful bid. At least with the 323s they are a modern train that reduces that likelihood and Porterbrook aren't left writing off a fleet of EMUs. At the same time, they can convert the remainder or 319s or scrap them for spares to help the 769s once they are in operation. Two birds with one stone so to speak.

For Northern it works too:
- They get units with quicker acceleration
- The return of the 319s will allow for a reduction of 6 EMU unit types to 3 which will help with maintenance costs and driver training/allocation
- They can be operated as six-coaches on routes during peak-time if needs be - the 319s cannot

 

[js1000]

If it was down to me, the full fleet of 323s (with the odd double up on suitable routes - although I'm guessing there isn't many!) would be supplemented by the 30 Renatus 321s. The 321s could be used on the Blackpool North services (8 car particularly) as well as some more limited stop trains in the North West. No need for 331s to operate on the Hadfield & Glossop, in my opinion; nor for them to work in and around Blackpool. They can be better used on the premier stuff.

Completely agreed. Seems barmy to me and I don't quite believe Northern will put the 331s on what is a branch line. The 331s would be better on the Crewe to Liverpool via Manchester Airport service where the 2+2 seating better suits Airport rail links and an inter-city service. I suspect now the 319s will definitely not be operating that route with yesterday's announcement the 331s will replace them and the 323s on that route.

 

[Bovverboy]

They can be operated as six-coaches on routes during peak-time if needs be - the 319s cannot

Well, as a 319 is a four-car unit, the only way you could make six-car units out of them would be to saw some of them in half, which I doubt is what you've got in mind. As to running 319s in anything other than 4-car formations, I can assure you that the only impediment to running them as 8-car sets is having long-enough station platforms to accommodate them. Didn't they run as 12-car sets when down south? And, as has already been pointed out, even 323s couldn't run paired up everywhere.

 

[js1000]

Chelford Down, Alderley Edge Up, Gatley (all), East Didsbury (all) and Mauldeth Road Down are no good for 6x23m.

Longport Down, Kidsgrove Up, Prestbury Down, Cheadle Down (Stoke) also not good.

On the Hadfield / Glossop, only Hattersley, Guide Bridge, Gorton and Glossop can handle 6x23m.

If needs be they could just be operated with ASDO with the rear carriage out of use (assuming all stations can have a minimum 120m length platform) if it was too expensive or not possible to extend certain platforms.

6 carriage 323 is approximately 141 metres.
Chelford Down = 117m
Alderley Up = 130m
Gatley = 122m (up) and 107m (down)
East Didsbury = 113m (up) and 104m (down)
Mauldeth Down = 121m
Longport Down = 115m
Kidsgrove Up = 138m
Prestbury Down = 140m

 

[edwin_m]

Have been expecting this announcement for a while. Just surprised it has taken so long to become formalised.


As expected that seems to indicate Porterbrook want all the 319s to convert to 769s. So even though none have run on the mainline yet, they still seem to have confidence in the project. I wonder how long it is before they announce 769s will be taken on as replacements for the 150s.

I suspect a bung to Northern from some level of government was required to cover the extra leasing costs of the larger fleet. It's highly unlikely to be financially worthwhile for a regional TOC to hire extra units. Taking the whole class also makes it more likely that Porterbrook would agree to the swap, as they have leased out more units in total so have more income, and don't have a microfleet of 323s off lease that they can't easily find a use for.

I think this is the reason Porterbrook have agreed to the swap, rather than because they want more 319s to convert to bi-mode. The 769 was never much more than a niche product. With the delays getting them into service I'd say it's most unlikely that there will be enough future orders for them to need these units for conversion.

 

[js1000]

Well, as a 319 is a four-car unit, the only way you could make six-car units out of them would be to saw some of them in half, which I doubt is what you've got in mind. As to running 319s in anything other than 4-car formations, I can assure you that the only impediment to running them as 8-car sets is having long-enough station platforms to accommodate them. Didn't they run as 12-car sets when down south? And, as has already been pointed out, even 323s couldn't run paired up everywhere.

The problem I have with the 319s is the 4 carriages are too short (they are only marginally longer than 323s and with 16 extra seats) but I don't think 8 carriages is necessary for commuter routes in the north though. I can't think of any routes that would justify that capacity.

Whereas a single 3-coach 323 gives you a similar capacity to a single 4-coach 319 - they have flexibility to double up as a 6 coach service on some peak-time services which would be ideal. Blackpool to Hazel Grove via Bolton? Liverpool to Manchester? Manchester to Stoke on Trent? I appreciate platform lengths are a problem but ASDO is increasingly common in the north - it's not an insurmountable problem.

 

[Greybeard33]

For starters, Manchester Oxford Road doesn't allow it in Platform 1 (towards Preston), nor does Platform 3 (towards Manchester). That level of restriction is far too great at a place that requires flexibility.

Kearsley, Farnworth, Moses Gate, Blackrod, Adlington and Leyland are also no go; as are Salwick or Leyton (up only).

Oxford Road Platform 1 is seldom used - it is only 4-car length. None of TPE's new trains will fit, nor 6-car 331 or 195 formations, and Oxford Road is too busy to rely on ASDO. Up services mostly use P4, which is plenty long enough, not P3. P3 is plenty long enough in the Down direction.

Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate are served only by the Stalybridge to Wigan stopper, which could not be worked by EMUs unless Victoria to Stalybridge and Lostock to Wigan electrification is completed.

Would it be economically feasible to retrofit ASDO to 323s?

 

[Bovverboy]

How many stations on the Bolton/Blackpool route will take 6x23m? Obviously Bolton, Preston and Blackpool North, but any others?

For starters, Manchester Oxford Road doesn't allow it in Platform 1 (towards Preston), nor does Platform 3 (towards Manchester). That level of restriction is far too great at a place that requires flexibility.

Oxford Road Platform 1 is seldom used - it is only 4-car length. None of TPE's new trains will fit, nor 6-car 331 or 195 formations, and Oxford Road is too busy to rely on ASDO. Up services mostly use P4, which is plenty long enough, not P3. P3 is plenty long enough in the Down direction.

Excuse my ignorance, but which is the 'down' direction at Oxford Road? And why would there be a problem in one direction but not the other - is it the positioning of the starter signal?

 

[NoMorePacers]

Excuse my ignorance, but which is the 'down' direction at Oxford Road? And why would there be a problem in one direction but not the other - is it the positioning of the starter signal?

The down direction will be heading away from Piccadilly.

 

[geoffk]

I was at Oxford Road the other day. Pl. 4 was occupied by a TPE unit. The 195 behind, also bound for the Airport, came into 3 and of course had to stop at the starting signal which is some way down the platform because of the two tracks merging immediately beyond. A 3-car 195 just fitted, any 4-car train would have to wait until pl. 4 was free.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I was at Oxford Road the other day. Pl. 4 was occupied by a TPE unit. The 195 behind, also bound for the Airport, came into 3 and of course had to stop at the starting signal which is some way down the platform because of the two tracks merging immediately beyond. A 3-car 195 just fitted, any 4-car train would have to wait until pl. 4 was free.

Indeed - it’s not good that Oxford Road is in effect too small to allow things like 5/397 or 6/323 to fit in either platform in each direction. Either way, not to bother. Run a few trains in and out of Piccadilly bay platforms and 6/323 should be fine.

 

[Greybeard33]

Oxford Road Platforms 2, 3 & 4 all have two signals in the Up (towards Piccadilly) direction. This is because the junctions where the lines merge are close to the platforms and so within the overlaps of the end platform (starter) signals. The mid platform signals have overlaps short of the junctions, so a following train can be cleared up to a mid platform signal while the preceding train is still occupying the block section towards Piccadilly. This reduces the platform reoccupation time.

All 3 platforms can take a 4-car train up to the mid platform signal, but a longer train needs to move up to the starter signal before releasing the doors.

P4 and P2 are 162m and 160m respectively in both directions, while P3 is 160m Down but only 137m Up, because the starter signal is short of the end of the platform (not sure why).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

While 769s aren't the subject of this thread, this duck will arise again in a few weeks time....

Is the thread concerning the class 769 units still open for postings?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Realistically yes. Stopping services on the Glossop, Crewe, Stoke and Airport lines (and of course now the Liverpool via Chat Moss section) are all perfect for the 323s; and so in theory would platforms be for 3-car ones going up to Bolton.

The Class 323 units used to run the all-stops Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly service until that service into the train shed at Manchester Piccadilly was discontinued.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

The Class 323 units used to run the all-stops Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly service until that service into the train shed at Manchester Piccadilly was discontinued.

Quite. That said, now that goes to Lime Street via Chat Moss it makes perfect sense to use them on that as well...