Northern Class 170's

[PomWombat]

Might regeared or hybrid drives make the 170s more suitable for stoppers?

I would imagine so.

If 170s are going to become hand-me downs from express duty to commuting stoppers, it might explain Porterbrook & Rolls Royce's interest in the project for hybrid paperbacks.

How often would a unit go through a re-engine process in its lifetime, anyway?

 

[Halifaxlad]

The 170s appear to be proving surprisingly capable of swallowing the crowds on the Harrogate line peaks. Whilst the seating is low density, it also means they have reasonably wide aisles. Also the 1/3 and 2/3 doors (compared to Northern's other 23m vehicle length diesel stock - 153 / 155 / 156 / 158) helps spread standees in the decent amount of available space more effectively.

You forgot to mention class 150's that frequently operate on this line in four car formations. Even then, these with more seats and the same door layout formation as 170's struggle with crowds at peak times. What this line really needs is electrification so 4 car 350's can run! I do agree that 170's are great but these really should be used on routes like the S+C!

 

[ainsworth74]

If 170s are going to become hand-me downs from express duty to commuting stoppers, it might explain Porterbrook & Rolls Royce's interest in the project for hybrid paperbacks.

And here I thought the venerable paperback couldn't be improved on when it comes to reading materials!

 

[eastwestdivide]

And here I thought the venerable paperback couldn't be improved on when it comes to reading materials!

If you add electricity to a paperback, does it become a Kindle? Other e-readers are available.
Auto-correct seems to have got the butter of that post.

 

[ainsworth74]

Occasionally the Forum is subject to more intense spam attacks than usual and this is one of those times. Usually the various methods we have in place are sufficient to defeat this to the point that even if they successfully register you won't see the posts they make. But we can't always stop it getting through and when you have a prolific spammer one can post a vast amount very quickly and before we can step in. Thank you to all who report the stuff that does get through it helps us to deal with it quicker.

For the avoidance of doubt I can assure you that the Forum has not been hacked and remains as secure as always under the hood. We're just in a very active phase in the war on spam.

 

[PomWombat]

Auto-correct seems to have got the butter of that post.

For sure. It's extra hard when I have one device that just suggests the corrections, and one that puts those corrections in automatically. I can't keep up!

 

[PomWombat]

You forgot to mention class 150's that frequently operate on this line in four car formations. Even then, these with more seats and the same door layout formation as 170's struggle with crowds at peak times. What this line really needs is electrification so 4 car 350's can run! I do agree that 170's are great but these really should be used on routes like the S+C!

On balance, we don't get 4-car 150's that much.

In the morning, there's as much chance of getting a 2-car sprinter instead of the 4-car expected. A 170 avoids that fate because it can't be short-formed.

In the evening, any 4-car formation is likely to be Pacer rather than 150. Next most likely is a mixed formation, still not a pair of 150's. Fewer short-forms now than before the summer, though.

In my experience, the time that the Harrogate line fares worst is when peak-hour trains are late. A 10 minute delay is enough to mean there's a whole extra train's-worth of punters on the platforms trying to get on. It is as bad as a cancellation, and it ensures the service gets steadily later.

A pair of 150s might have more seats (I hate the 3+2 layout) but they are harder to stand in.

Electrification might be the answer, but for the love of God, not to then put 3+2 seating in there.

 

[SC43090]

Not sure if I’ve missed something but the 17:57 Leeds to Doncaster was formed of a 170 last night. I thought they were only operating on the Harrogate line?

I understand 1757 Leeds Doncaster is booked for class 170 until further notice after arriving at Doncaster it goes & sits in middle road between Platforms 6 & 7 this evening it was 170459....... It also does a Doncaster Leeds service on a Monday to Friday......On Saturdays it just sits at Doncaster due to the current industrial action by RMT guards

 

[deltic08]

Over the summer, there were indeed 3 170s allocated. They made up 3 of the 5 diagrams that ran through peak and off-peak (being both of the Knaresborough diagrams and one of the 3 York diagrams in off-peak). Now we seem to get 4-5 on the route, covering 4 day-long diagrams, and 1 peak-only diagram.

Oh good, I am pleased to hear that.
What we really need is for NR to change linespeed from 60 to 75mph then 170s will get out of 1st gear.

 

[Halifaxlad]

On balance, we don't get 4-car 150's that much.

In the evening, any 4-car formation is likely to be Pacer rather than 150.

Next most likely is a mixed formation, still not a pair of 150's.

We must use this line at different times as 150's are used more than you think.

 

[PomWombat]

We must use this line at different times as 150's are used more than you think.

I guess we must...

I usually catch either 2C11 or 2C15, occasionally later, from Harrogate to Leeds, so get to see a snapshot of the weekday AM peak from around 0745 to 0845. In the evening my departures are far more mixed across the PM peak, from 1700 through to 1830, occasionally later.

As it happens, the fact that 170's had legroom led me to want to figure out what services were served by them ... so I could target my commute better. I started to keep a tally of just what unit compositions I saw during my commute, both for the trains I caught and for the services running in the opposite direction. From that I built up my own idea of the diagrams in use, and the units that were allocated.

Then I decided I would keep it going over the summer, to see what volume of failures/swaps we saw, in preparation for the (as-then) expected higher volume services, and the arrival of more 170s.

What it means now is that I have a tally of all the observations I've made over the last 5 months. It really doesn't show that many sprinters, and certainly not that many 4-car sprinters. And the one diagram where you are most likely to see them is 2C11, one of my regulars.

Morning Observations:

Evening Observations:

Key:
P = Pacer
S = Sprinter 150/153/155/156
X = 158
M = Mixed Pacer + Sprinter
T = Turbostar
U = Unknown
C = Cancelled (likely only 1 service of the diagram)

 

[WYSH]

I understand 1757 Leeds Doncaster is booked for class 170 until further notice after arriving at Doncaster it goes & sits in middle road between Platforms 6 & 7 this evening it was 170459....... It also does a Doncaster Leeds service on a Monday to Friday......On Saturdays it just sits at Doncaster due to the current industrial action by RMT guards

1757 back to 321 operation this evening. Whether this is permanent or not I don’t know

 

[Bucephalus]

You forgot to mention class 150's that frequently operate on this line in four car formations. Even then, these with more seats and the same door layout formation as 170's struggle with crowds at peak times. What this line really needs is electrification so 4 car 350's can run! I do agree that 170's are great but these really should be used on routes like the S+C!

Blimey, when I lived in leeds it was two (or three) packed out pacers coupled together. Just wait until hs2 drops in to leeds. The harogate line will be bedlam

 

[Halifaxlad]

Is it me or has this gone more noticed in comparison to the conversion of 350's to bio-modes?

"Rolls-Royce and Porterbrook, the UK’s largest owner of passenger rolling stock, have agreed the delivery of MTU Hybrid PowerPacks that can convert Class 168 and Class 170 ‘Turbostar’ DMUs from diesel-only to hybrid-electric operation."

"Rolls-Royce will initially deliver two MTU Hybrid PowerPacks based on type 6H 1800 engines to Porterbrook. These will be fitted into a Turbostar DMU in the beginning of 2020 which will then be trialled for a period of six months during regular operations."

Porterbrook PR 19-09-18
https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/news/...-project-in-the-uk-with-mtu-hybrid-powerpacks

 

[td97]

Is it me or has this gone more noticed in comparison to the conversion of 350's to bio-modes?

"Rolls-Royce and Porterbrook, the UK’s largest owner of passenger rolling stock, have agreed the delivery of MTU Hybrid PowerPacks that can convert Class 168 and Class 170 ‘Turbostar’ DMUs from diesel-only to hybrid-electric operation."

"Rolls-Royce will initially deliver two MTU Hybrid PowerPacks based on type 6H 1800 engines to Porterbrook. These will be fitted into a Turbostar DMU in the beginning of 2020 which will then be trialled for a period of six months during regular operations."

Porterbrook PR 19-09-18
https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/news/...-project-in-the-uk-with-mtu-hybrid-powerpacks

Was discussed here
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/bombardier-rolls-royce-joint-venture-for-hybrid-train.169991/

 

[Halifaxlad]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/bombardier-rolls-royce-joint-venture-for-hybrid-train.169991/

Thanks

 

[johntea]

The Harrogate line is a complete lottery, you can go from a 170 to a 142!

I have noticed on the 170 with the ‘Northern circle logos’ refurbishment (not sure of the unit number) the power sockets are a bit hit and miss, they work in one carriage but not others!

 

[palmersears]

Rumours abound that the 170s are going to be relocated onto services out of Hull by 'early next year' onto routes more suitable for the gearboxes.

How much salt you wish to take with the above is entirely up to you!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Nottinghams would be the more suitable route in my eyes, though maybe not if they interwork with Lincolns due to the latter being more stop-start South of Sheffield. S&C has long gaps between stops, but the linespeed isn't really suitable. No doubt someone will comment on how "suburban" door layouts wouldn't be suitable anyway!

 

[pemma]

The Harrogate line is a complete lottery, you can go from a 170 to a 142!

The Mid-Cheshire was the same in the early 2000s - you could have a 142, a 150, a 158, a mk2 loco-hauled set or a 175. I'd rather have that 'lottery' situation than the current situation where pretty much everything is a 142 or a 150.

 

[Bungle965]

Rumours abound that the 170s are going to be relocated onto services out of Hull by 'early next year' onto routes more suitable for the gearboxes.

How much salt you wish to take with the above is entirely up to you!

Nottinghams would be the more suitable route in my eyes, though maybe not if they interwork with Lincolns due to the latter being more stop-start South of Sheffield. S&C has long gaps between stops, but the linespeed isn't really suitable. No doubt someone will comment on how "suburban" door layouts wouldn't be suitable anyway!

Both Hull and Nottingham services would require a substantial amount of crew training for that to work.
Assuming you mean Hull to Sheffield services that would involve training up Hull, Doncaster and Sheffield crew to work the 170s.
While the Nottingham services would involve training up some of the Leeds link which currently do not sign the 170s and also Sheffield.
Sam

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Both Hull and Nottingham services would require a substantial amount of crew training for that to work.
Assuming you mean Hull to Sheffield services that would involve training up Hull, Doncaster and Sheffield crew to work the 170s.
While the Nottingham services would involve training up some of the Leeds link which currently do not sign the 170s and also Sheffield.
Sam

They'll require crew training wherever they go, as will the 195s. Therefore it's a spurious reason to not do something.

Obviously not every route can get the best stock, and some stock is more suited to one route than another. Whoever decides this at Northern will have their reasons for the decisions they make: I happen to disagree with some of it but I'm just a customer and an amateur enthusiast.

Putting them on Harrogates would seem to be a decision which looked at the load factor on that route but ignored the technical limitations of the units. My suggestion of Nottingham would allow the units to stretch their legs a bit, but would probably be over-capacity outside of the peaks, as the 2-car 158 or even 150 is more than adequate in my experience. There'll be pros and cons to wherever they go though. Is the linespeed and distance between stops really that much better on Hull to York or Sheffield?

 

[pemma]

Putting them on Harrogates would seem to be a decision which looked at the load factor on that route but ignored the technical limitations of the units. My suggestion of Nottingham would allow the units to stretch their legs a bit, but would probably be over-capacity outside of the peaks, as the 2-car 158 or even 150 is more than adequate in my experience. There'll be pros and cons to wherever they go though. Is the linespeed and distance between stops really that much better on Hull to York or Sheffield?

The Harrogate line is the home patch of many Northern senior managers so I get the impression they wanted something good for the slow line from Leeds to York but also didn't want to be seen as taking the piss by branding it as a Northern Connect route and giving it brand new 195s.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The new 'Northern Link' perhaps?

 

[PomWombat]

The Harrogate line is the home patch of many Northern senior managers so I get the impression they wanted something good for the slow line from Leeds to York but also didn't want to be seen as taking the piss by branding it as a Northern Connect route and giving it brand new 195s.

The cynics might say that there is a cunning plan to say "we tried the 170s" before allocating 195s anyway.

When are the remaining 170s due from Scotland? Or rather, when are they now expected?

 

[Phlip]

Is the linespeed and distance between stops really that much better on Hull to York or Sheffield?

Broadly speaking: 90 mph between Hull and Brough. Currently 75 mph between Brough and Gilberdyke but soon to be 90 mph once the new signalling is commissioned in December. 70 between Gilberdyke and Thorne. 80 mph between Thorne and Doncaster. 75 mph between Doncaster and Swinton. 100 mph between Swinton and Meadowhall. 90 mph between Meadowhall and Sheffield.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Broadly speaking: 90 mph between Hull and Brough. Currently 75 mph between Brough and Gilberdyke but soon to be 90 mph once the new signalling is commissioned in December. 70 between Gilberdyke and Thorne. 80 mph between Thorne and Doncaster. 75 mph between Doncaster and Swinton. 100 mph between Swinton and Meadowhall. 90 mph between Meadowhall and Sheffield.

But will 170s be able to reach those higher speeds before needing to slow up for the next stop?

 

[Phlip]

But will 170s be able to reach those higher speeds before needing to slow up for the next stop?

On a Hull - Sheffield fast service, yes, absolutely.

 

[PomWombat]

Over the summer, there were indeed 3 170s allocated. They made up 3 of the 5 diagrams that ran through peak and off-peak (being both of the Knaresborough diagrams and one of the 3 York diagrams in off-peak). Now we seem to get 4-5 on the route, covering 4 day-long diagrams, and 1 peak-only diagram.

I've noticed this week that we appear to now have 6 diagrams covered by 170's on the Harrogate line.

Obviously I only get to see snapshots morning & evening, but if the diagrams don't get swapped out in the middle of the day, then these 6 represent 85% of the day's services.

 

[superkev]

I'm sure good old BR would have regeared them to more Northern like stop start speeds of say 75mph.
K