Northern franchise awarded to Arriva.

[DaiGog]

People don't travel on averages, overalls, nor do they spread their working day out to the quieter trains - hence the rush hour.

And if a three carriage train is full off-peak, a six carriage train is full peak (and indeed a three carriage train full to bursting peak), then no, a maximum of five carriages turning up at a platform doesn't tell you that.

People do adjust their travel habits to make their journeys more comfortable. A wedged-out 3 car train at 1710 will see some people choose to catch a 6 car at 1720, for example, even if it is marginally less convenient time-wise. In the new world, if 5 car trains depart at 1705, 1720 and 1735, then the load will spread better between them. Furthermore, if the 5-car 1705 becomes overly stuffed, some will gravitate to the 5-car 1720 (or even 1650 if it suits them) if there is usually more room.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People do adjust their travel habits to make their journeys more comfortable. A wedged-out 3 car train at 1710 will see some people choose to catch a 6 car at 1720, for example, even if it is marginally less convenient time-wise. In the new world, if 5 car trains depart at 1705, 1720 and 1735, then the load will spread better between them. Furthermore, if the 5-car 1705 becomes overly stuffed, some will gravitate to the 5-car 1720 (or even 1650 if it suits them) if there is usually more room.

Particularly if the TOC provides information on loadings like LM do. I really think it's time we followed the Swiss model and put that data in the journey planner.

 

[bradders1983]

Stated that Barnsley will retain its current service frequency.

But if it is losing the Nottingham/Leeds service, which service is it now gaining?

 

[43074]

But if it is losing the Nottingham/Leeds service, which service is it now gaining?

I would assume the existing half hourly Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield semi-fast will remain and the Leeds - Nottingham service will take a new path via Wakefield Westgate (as per the XC services) then down the MML as now.

 

[Greybeard33]

Regarding the S Manchester services, one snippet is that the additional hourly service to Northwich, specified in the ITT, will be extended to Greenbank.

No mention of the diesel stock for this line, nor for the New Mills Newtown/Buxton or Rose Hill/New Mills Central/Hope Valley services, so presumably all will be getting refurbished 150s/156s.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

Also no mention of the electric stock for Manchester to Macclesfield/Stoke/Alderley Edge/Crewe/Airport - implies refurbished 319s?

 

[IanXC]

But if it is losing the Nottingham/Leeds service, which service is it now gaining?

No idea - not mentioned as far as I can see!

 

[bradders1983]

I would assume the existing half hourly Leeds - Barnsley - Sheffield semi-fast will remain and the Leeds - Nottingham service will take a new path via Wakefield Westgate (as per the XC services) then down the MML as now.

Indeed, I got those bits, so it would mean Barnsley goes down from 4 services an hour:

Sheff-Hudds
Sheff-Leeds semi fast
Sheff-Leeds stopper
Notts-Leeds semi fast

...down to three. Cant quite work out how it retains its current service pattern! Will there be a SECOND Sheffield-Leeds semi-fast per hour? Great news for Sheffield if so, especially with the "new" faster train via Moorthorpe.

 

[absolutelymilk]

It seems the new diesel trains will run Chester-Leeds via Bradford, Liverpool to Manchester Airport via Warrington and Barrow to Manchester Airport, Lincoln to Sheffield and Blackpool to York.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

So these will be the new AT300 trains then or a different new train? It will be a massive upgrade from the current 175s on the Chester-Manchester line!

 

[Iskra]

Which mystery places have these frequencies in the north? I assume Leeds and Manchester, yes they do have good frequencies. However many places have just one or two transpennine trains an hour, and it is obviously these people I am talking about who don't have the luxury of skipping a train and getting one 10 minutes later.

I would say though that even with Manchester to Leeds, if passenger growth is aimed for the use of five carriages instead of the whole platform length may be regretted in future, if (like the tube) you know that the one 10 minutes behind is going to be just as full.

It's pointless complaining until you know what the door control system is going to allow. It could allow 2x 5 car.

As has been said several times, it is realistic that well designed 5 car trains will have a lot more capacity than 2x185's.

We have received the vast improvement we needed on the TPE network, I don't see how people can still be complaining...

 

[Bletchleyite]

So these will be the new AT300 trains then or a different new train? It will be a massive upgrade from the current 175s on the Chester-Manchester line!

I would expect Class 172 or similar from another supplier, personally. So the whole "no new DMUs" thing proves to be nonsense, though I do think it's a shame they aren't bi-modes given that most of their run will be under wires.

 

[TBY-Paul]

Interesting reading about half-hourly Middlesbrough to Newcastle benefiting Stockton as quoted, seems strange to just mention Stockton. Are these services continuing up the coast or Stillington branch? I say this as no mention about Hartlepool receiving half hourly services. Great to see announcement finally out!

Using the Stillington line would give an instant 15-20 min saving on Middlesbrough-Newcastle journey times, so it's possible I suppose.

I'm disappointed there are no plans for a Northern service linking Teesside to York. A Hartlepool-York Stopper (HPL-SEC-BIL-STK-EAG-YRM-NTR-THI-YRK), would create some very useful journey opportunities.

 

[northwichcat]

Regarding the S Manchester services, one snippet is that the additional hourly service to Northwich, specified in the ITT, will be extended to Greenbank.

No mention of the diesel stock for this line, nor for the New Mills Newtown/Buxton or Rose Hill/New Mills Central/Hope Valley services, so presumably all will be getting refurbished 150s/156s.

http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

Also the second service will call at Hale (not required in the ITT.)

There's a lack of mention about inward cascades to Northern and exactly how many of the new trains will be diesel so we don't know if Northern will be getting any of the DMUs released by Scotrail or FGW or not.

Strangely they don't mention any rolling stock for Mid-Cheshire. Other lines which get Pacers like Southport at least get a mention of Pacer withdrawal and refurbished trains being used.

The other strange thing is Hadfield gets a mention of new 4 car EMUs but there's no mention of rolling stock for Crewe/Stoke, even if 323s are replaced by cascaded 4 car trains I would have expected a mention of longer trains and fully refurbished trains.

 

[47802]

Indeed, I got those bits, so it would mean Barnsley goes down from 4 services an hour:

Sheff-Hudds
Sheff-Leeds semi fast
Sheff-Leeds stopper
Notts-Leeds semi fast

...down to three. Cant quite work out how it retains its current service pattern! Will there be a SECOND Sheffield-Leeds semi-fast per hour? Great news for Sheffield if so, especially with the "new" faster train via Moorthorpe.

Presumably there will be an additional Sheff - Barnsley - Leeds semi fast, downside you wont get the new trains on the Nottingham service and maybe you wont get 158's either.

 

[sprinterguy]

So these will be the new AT300 trains then or a different new train? It will be a massive upgrade from the current 175s on the Chester-Manchester line!

I'm fairly confident that the new Northern stock will not be AT-300 units. The new Northern stock will be a mix of diesel and electric trains in 3, 4 and possibly 2-car formations by the looks of things.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The words used in related to pacers, seems to suggest they will not be in the area ny longer, but it does not seem to say they will be removed from service, maybe they will be cascaded? :P

 

[Iskra]

Using the Stillington line would give an instant 15-20 min saving on Middlesbrough-Newcastle journey times, so it's possible I suppose.

I'm disappointed there are no plans for a Northern service linking Teesside to York. A Hartlepool-York Stopper (HPL-SEC-BIL-STK-EAG-YRM-NTR-THI-YRK), would create some very useful journey opportunities.

You make a good point, but GC do at least offer something on that route.

 

[Iskra]

The words used in related to pacers, seems to suggest they will not be in the area ny longer, but it does not seem to say they will be removed from service, maybe they will be cascaded? :P

Cascaded for use on a London-Brighton express service...

 

[bradders1983]

Presumably there will be an additional Sheff - Barnsley - Leeds semi fast, downside you wont get the new trains on the Nottingham service and maybe you wont get 158's either.

Im not too worried, the number of fast and semi fast trains between the two cities is likely to go up from the current 3 an hour up to 4 and with one of them going a faster way than it did before.

Now if we can divert the CrossCountry that currently goes via Doncaster through Leeds instead and it would make me an even happier bunny!

 

[Greybeard33]

Having had a look at the Northern Franchise Improvement page on the dft.gov website (link at bottom of post) I have jumped to conclusion that Manchester Victoria could be losing their electric Northern service until further electrification is completed.

My reasoning behind this is that if you look at the Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows section it states that there will be 2 Northern services an hour:

1. Liverpool to Manchester Airport (of course electric)
2. Liverpool to Bradford via Calder Valley (of course diesel)

No mention of the current electric service operating between Liverpool and Manchester Victoria.

Now, here is another leap of thought. By the end of 2017 the 323 units will be gone according to the same website and will be replaced by re-furbished 4 car electrics until the brand new 4 car electrics arrive on the Hadfield line, could the re-furbished 4 car electrics be the 319's that have been displaced from the Liverpool to Manchester Victoria service?

I love this time of a franchise. The gossip and conjecture going around is great,
http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html

But Wigan is to get two electric services an hour to Manchester via Bolton once electrified - presumably to Victoria and presumably refurbished 319s.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The mantra being something of a lie in any case - because the vast majority of trains in use across the North have never seen service in the 'south'.

I was making reference to FUTURE cascades...not harking back to the past as you appear to have done so,

 

[Greybeard33]

Also the second service will call at Hale (not required in the ITT.)

There's a lack of mention about inward cascades to Northern and exactly how many of the new trains will be diesel so we don't know if Northern will be getting any of the DMUs released by Scotrail or FGW or not.

Strangely they don't mention any rolling stock for Mid-Cheshire. Other lines which get Pacers like Southport at least get a mention of Pacer withdrawal and refurbished trains being used.

The other strange thing is Hadfield gets a mention of new 4 car EMUs but there's no mention of rolling stock for Crewe/Stoke, even if 323s are replaced by cascaded 4 car trains I would have expected a mention of longer trains and fully refurbished trains.

Not strange - just good PR to accentuate the positive and try to bury the less good news. The latter can be inferred from what is not stated in the press releases.

 

[Iskra]

Getting back on topic a bit more.

It's great to see the Lancaster-Leeds (Bentham line) will now have a viable commuter service and an evening journey. I expect usage of this line to start to pick up now significantly.

Similar (but not quite as drastic an improvement) on the Settle and Carlisle.

 

[rick9525]

Pleased to see Hadfield will have new trains from 2020 but there is infrastructure work that is badly needs doing around the Dinting Triangle to ensure travel times can be improved.
As for the Marple line it is implied there will be hourly journeys to Sheffield on a Sunday and by definition hourly to Manchester. It is a scandle that during the winter the service to Picadilly is only every 2 hours.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Similar (but not quite as drastic an improvement) on the Settle and Carlisle.

I still think the opportunity for marketing gains through operation of a properly promoted scenic service on the S&C are being missed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Pleased to see Hadfield will have new trains from 2020 but there is infrastructure work that is badly needs doing around the Dinting Triangle to ensure travel times can be improved.
As for the Marple line it is implied there will be hourly journeys to Sheffield on a Sunday and by definition hourly to Manchester. It is a scandle that during the winter the service to Picadilly is only every 2 hours.

Yes, I always saw that as lacking for a PTE city service, particularly now Sunday is just another shopping day.

 

[Paul Duck]

Using the Stillington line would give an instant 15-20 min saving on Middlesbrough-Newcastle journey times, so it's possible I suppose.

I'm disappointed there are no plans for a Northern service linking Teesside to York. A Hartlepool-York Stopper (HPL-SEC-BIL-STK-EAG-YRM-NTR-THI-YRK), would create some very useful journey opportunities.

This was the main one I was looking out for TBY-PAUL. Shame like you say they didn't put a HPL-YRK service forward. Wonder what the additional MBR-LDS services entail, Eaglescliffe stop? One can only wish!

 

[Domh245]

I don't think anyone is asking the important question here, which is what colour will the trains be?

:P

 

[IanXC]

Local to me, the Bridlington to Leeds service and the York to Scarborough shuttle are very welcome surprises.

The total service pattern means Hull to Selby will be 3tph, which I would hope would allow the York to be more 'express', and also means that Hull to Brough will have a staggering 6tph in alternate hours (still 5tph in the opposite!).

 

[Iskra]

I still think the opportunity for marketing gains through operation of a properly promoted scenic service on the S&C are being missed.

I think the S and C is well marketed, but marketing can only acheive so much.

As for a scenic service: A much more tangible improvement would be to have a semi-fast Leeds-Glasgow running over the line, even 1tp2h would see patronage boom. When units are available, obviously. Leave the scenic service to WCRC and their steam trains instead in my opinion.

I think we can be happy for now, we have a tangible service improvement.

 

[47802]

So aside from the speculation of what goes where overall it looks very good to me.

New electric trains which wasn't really expected except maybe the regional trains to Blackpool.

Long overdue much better services between Sheffield - Lincoln, Middlesbrough Newcastle and Carlisle. Better service on the Calder Valley, Better services on the Lancaster - Skipton route, well except maybe the Cumbrian Coast ok it gets more services but it doesn't look like there will be a rush to get rid of those clapped out 37's great if your an enthusiast maybe not so good if your a regular passenger.

No Railbuses and Transit engine jobbies trying pass themselves off as new trains.

 

[Iskra]

I don't think anyone is asking the important question here, which is what colour will the trains be?

:P

In the colours of the Lancashire and Yorkshire railway, obviously

I don't think Arriva will be resurrecting their Arriva Trains Northern branding considering the poor connotations...

I can't wait for LHCS 37's across the S and C though