Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

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LancsFus45407

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Fifteen is enough and the rest need turning into soup cans or razor blades. 143's are looking likely to be extinct seeing as the one that was being considered got damaged and only 3 operational 144's are being saved with a 4th becoming a static exhibit. Think there's enough saved now.
 

Paul_10

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Although I'm a little surprised how many have been saved, I don't see the issue. If the owners can afford and look after them then all is good.

I'm not really counting 142033 as being preserved, I suspect despite it being potentially a private location, vandalism can't be ruled out and it will probably look a bit sorry for itself in a few years time in anycase.
 

irish_rail

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I think the trouble is every railway wants their OWN pacer, regardless if the line down the road also has one. Totally unviable in reality and will bite alot of them on the backside. A handful of pacers spread geographically round the country would have made more sense and generated an actual attraction rather than this circus in the east of England whereby there will be pacers running on most heritage routes.
 

Swimbar

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More preserved Pacers than Deltics and 40s combined. Very OTT.

One of each class would have been plenty.
Presumably some are for use as part of the normal timetable. The KWVR example could be used to provide a unit for their 'Heritage Diesel Train' services in the timetable.
 

Mat17

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I actually take a different view I suspect. The plentiful supply of newly-preserved pacers is a good thing in my opinion, but not necessarily for the reasons you might expect. I have no doubt that a fair few of them will be used for a while and then get laid to one side as they develop defects etc. The positive for me is that this creates a lot of donors for spare parts in year to come. Which hopefully means the lines that really utilise and care for their pacers will be able to continue to look after the ones they own as the initial number gets thinned out over the next thirty years or so (just see what happened with the 141s). Very much in the same way that the heritage railways were inundated by class 101 or 117 DMUs when they left service twenty years ago. I would much rather have seen the investment directed towards the class 100, 103, 105 or 120 fleets back then. But with hindsight the great increase has meant that some initially preserved suburbans and 101s have been culled and helped to keep other units going.

I suspect the honeymoon period for pacers will only last for a while, that picture will no doubt change when sprinters become available. Just hope 153s don't become the next big thing. I certainly won't be rushing to travel on one of those in preservation.
 

43096

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I think the trouble is every railway wants their OWN pacer, regardless if the line down the road also has one. Totally unviable in reality and will bite alot of them on the backside. A handful of pacers spread geographically round the country would have made more sense and generated an actual attraction rather than this circus in the east of England whereby there will be pacers running on most heritage routes.
Agreed. I totally do not understand the Pacer love-in going on. They were rubbish when built and they’re rubbish now. Given some of the prices quoted for acquiring the 142s, there’s a few people/railways that have taken leave of their senses.
 

Neptune

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I do think it’s mainly a case of them being purchased by all these lines as cheap off peak units like when the mass of 101’s and 117’s were preserved. With the 1st gen DMU’s currently working these services they are getting harder to maintain as spare parts inevitably dwindle. Look at how many 1st gen DMU’s are being laid up, sometimes for years when due an overhaul.

Are people’s objections down to the mass hysteria over how the media portray pacers as rubbish and not fit for mainline service? I hear so many people on here saying how they should have only been used on lightly used branch lines rather than mainline services into big city termini. Now they’re being preserved on branchlines to be utilised at quieter times people don’t seem happy!

At the moment Pacers are plentiful and spare parts easily obtainable (look at the Chasewater purchasing 3 units with one being stripped to enable a plentiful spares pool for the 2 runners).

These units are not necessarily being purchased for the enthusiasts but as a cheap way to run the service at quieter times which if it means earning extra money for the big trains on a weekend isn’t a bad thing.

However I do hope these units don’t lead to a mass scrapping of 1st gen units.
 

Mat17

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However I do hope these units don’t lead to a mass scrapping of 1st gen units.
This is my fear I suppose. The NYMR and WSR bought withdrawn class 100 or 105 units in the late 70s/early 80s and ran them in much the same way as cheaper out of the box traction. By the 1990s what with their deteriorating condition, asbestos contamination etc. They were generally set aside and scrapped and replaced by the latest stock released from BR. Very few of these vehicles now survive. Class 105 is down to three vehicles. So it's not without precedent.

Looking more recently at say the KWVR. The 108 performed sterling service in this form from withdrawal by BR through to about 2011, when the 101 replaced it. I've been hoping the 108 would return one day but it's sat aside awaiting a thorough overhaul. My fear is with the arrival of the 144, will the 101 be set aside for a overhaul too and end up joining the 108 parked up out of use for a prolonged period.
 

303032

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There is a post on Twitter saying that 142004 and 142090 are working 5T44 ECS working from Newton Heath TMD to Blackburn King Street for warm storage.
 
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Jamesrob637

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There is a post on Twitter saying that 142004 and 142090 are working 5T44 ECS working from Newton Heath TMD to Blackburn King Street for warm storage.
Which would mean definitely no Northern 142s out in passenger service today, if indeed ever again.
 

xotGD

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I guess a 143 ought to be preserved in the north east, as this was their original patch. One in Tyne & Wear PTE yellow, perhaps?
 

Rikki Lamb

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This is my fear I suppose. The NYMR and WSR bought withdrawn class 100 or 105 units in the late 70s/early 80s and ran them in much the same way as cheaper out of the box traction. By the 1990s what with their deteriorating condition, asbestos contamination etc. They were generally set aside and scrapped and replaced by the latest stock released from BR. Very few of these vehicles now survive. Class 105 is down to three vehicles. So it's not without precedent.

Looking more recently at say the KWVR. The 108 performed sterling service in this form from withdrawal by BR through to about 2011, when the 101 replaced it. I've been hoping the 108 would return one day but it's sat aside awaiting a thorough overhaul. My fear is with the arrival of the 144, will the 101 be set aside for a overhaul too and end up joining the 108 parked up out of use for a prolonged period.
From what I have heard amongst kwvr sources, the 144 is to receive red livery in time.

The 108 was withdrawn in 2014 and active restoration has begun on it.
 

adh144004

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I am only a rail (and Pacer) enthusiast and have no real understanding of how railways are run or the costs involved - so forgive me if this question is naive, but is it possible some of the Pacers making their way to preserved lines are there because people involved in those railways are Pacer enthusiasts and they just want one, regardless of whether they will ever run in revenue service. Are private buyers involved - with some of these railways providing somewhere for lucky boys (depending on your marmite pacer viewpoint) with big toys to play for a fee?
As I said, naive enthusiast, so if this is unrealistic and financial nonsense then please feel free to say so - in a kindly way ;)
 

Neptune

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I am only a rail (and Pacer) enthusiast and have no real understanding of how railways are run or the costs involved - so forgive me if this question is naive, but is it possible some of the Pacers making their way to preserved lines are there because people involved in those railways are Pacer enthusiasts and they just want one, regardless of whether they will ever run in revenue service. Are private buyers involved - with some of these railways providing somewhere for lucky boys (depending on your marmite pacer viewpoint) with big toys to play for a fee?
As I said, naive enthusiast, so if this is unrealistic and financial nonsense then please feel free to say so - in a kindly way ;)
I think mostly they have been preserved as a runaround for quiet times. This isn’t to say that they’re not Pacer fans. I say this as there have been various pacer preservation groups formed over the last few years and most seem to have died a death due to lack of funds or interest. One of them saved the cab end from 142059 which was stored under Manchester Victoria station (stored at the line in Preston I believe) but nothing else seems to have happened with these various groups.

It’s likely that the people from these groups may well attach themselves to one of the preserved pacers. Certainly with the amount being saved it is easier for them than forming their own group to preserve their own units and all time and costs involved, especially as most of the groups seemed to want to save at least one of each class (3 units minimum which is time consuming and potentially expensive).

I totally understand why people are interested in Pacers having worked them for most of their working lives (141’s, 142’s and 144’s). Whilst not perfect for most of the services they’ve been running on around Leeds they have developed a character over the years and they are ideal for preserved lines.

Funnily enough if I never work a 144 again as seems likely the last 2 car I worked was 144003 and the very last one I worked was 144017. Both to be preserved of course.
 
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skyhigh

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I've been told that the 144s at Keighley are now stored prior to going off-lease and won't be going back into service. Those at Heaton are warm-stored in case they're required for a while.
 

43096

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I think mostly they have been preserved as a runaround for quiet times. This isn’t to say that they’re not Pacer fans. I say this as there have been various pacer preservation groups formed over the last few years and most seem to have died a death due to lack of funds or interest. One of them saved the cab end from 142059 which was stored under Manchester Victoria station (stored at the line in Preston I believe) but nothing else seems to have happened with these various groups.
It's all very well saying they're for use at quiet times, but a Pacer is not something that your average heritage railway visitor is going to want to pay to travel on. A 142 with bus seats and no tables is frankly not going to cut it, and will likely put visitors off from wanting to come again.
 

Neptune

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It's all very well saying they're for use at quiet times, but a Pacer is not something that your average heritage railway visitor is going to want to pay to travel on. A 142 with bus seats and no tables is frankly not going to cut it, and will likely put visitors off from wanting to come again.
A 101 has bus seats and no tables too. Bear in mind the 144’s and some of the 142’s preserved don’t have bus seats fitted. I often visit heritage railways at quieter times (I can’t stand galas) and have yet to hear someone moan when they’ve been on the DMU service including families.
 

Mat17

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It's all very well saying they're for use at quiet times, but a Pacer is not something that your average heritage railway visitor is going to want to pay to travel on. A 142 with bus seats and no tables is frankly not going to cut it, and will likely put visitors off from wanting to come again.
I have to agree. I think the problem with pacers at the moment (and this goes to any recently withdrawn stock) is that they are still too fresh out of service. Heritage railways attract some visitors (I stress 'some') so people can sample stock from several generations ago (the history buffs), or because of nostalgic memories from their youth. I'm sorry to say that even for myself (someone who likes pacers and see the future historic value in preserving them, same with HSTs etc.) would be equally disappointed if a 142 was running all the services, or the loco hauled stock was all air con MK2/3s. It just all so modern and like something I could have travelled on only last year.

Once we are 20 or 30 years into the future, the appreciation of them will be much greater and their place in history will be much more obvious. Future generations will be glad we saved them. The old saying, familiarity breeds contempt. How many people felt the same way about class 47s or class 50s in the 1970s? Or all those great Victorian/Georgian public buildings that were cleared to make way for the progressive 1950s/60s concrete office blocks?

As a side note, I really don't get the obsession amongst the railway buffs for tables on trains. The last thing I want on public transport is spending the journey sat in the aisle seat opposite some complete stranger wondering where I should look? I avoid the bay seating or table seating where possible. I Much prefer airline seating. This is probably why I'm disliking the 195s so much, the airline seats are so few and so hard to get. I'm missing pacers already.
 

Swimbar

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A 101 has bus seats and no tables too. Bear in mind the 144’s and some of the 142’s preserved don’t have bus seats fitted. I often visit heritage railways at quieter times (I can’t stand galas) and have yet to hear someone moan when they’ve been on the DMU service including families.
If you are travelling into Keighley from Haworth on a Saturday morning to do your shopping I don't think you will be bothered what sort of DMU it is as long as it turns up on time.
Not all travellers are enthusiasts!
 

Mat17

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If you are travelling into Keighley from Haworth on a Saturday morning to do your shopping I don't think you will be bothered what sort of DMU it is as long as it turns up on time.
Not all travellers are enthusiasts!
Exactly, and it's funny because the 1st gen DMUs are utilised on heritage lines just in the same way they were intended to be used to save branch lines in the 1950s. They are practical, useful and easy to start up, put into service and operate (comparative to steam locos and hauled stock). The Pacers will fit the bill in exactly the same way that the older units do but have the advantaged (it is hoped) of being newer and thus perhaps more reliable/cheaper to maintain.
 

Phil Scott

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A posting on wnxx.com seems to suggest 142003 is the sixth Pacer that’s due to move to Eastleigh. Is this actually correct? If so, it could suggest that it hasn’t been sold for preservation after all.
 

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