Northern Penalty Fare Scheme (as of 14 May 2018)

[Bantamzen]

Not in my experience. Maybe the limit isn't £100 but certainly a great deal of long-distance tickets simply can't be purchased from new Northern TVMs. Yet another screwup - I would understand a floor limit for cash sales, but for card sales it's frankly ridiculous.

That's interesting, and not good as you say. I wonder what the limit actually is, and if there is any reasoning behind it? I know for example if I try to make a large payment (over several hundred pounds, I forget the exact limit) on my debit card, my bank requires me to verify the transaction via a telephone call before it will be processed. Could this be some hangover from failed transactions where people haven't received such a verification call and/or text message?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

That's interesting, and not good as you say. I wonder what the limit actually is, and if there is any reasoning behind it? I know for example if I try to make a large payment (over several hundred pounds, I forget the exact limit) on my debit card, my bank requires me to verify the transaction via a telephone call before it will be processed. Could this be some hangover from failed transactions where people haven't received such a verification call and/or text message?

Perhaps, but I am not aware of any such limitation on other TVMs. It is a uniquely Northern thing.

 

[[.n]]

I have fallen foul of floor limits before on board trains, as my ticket was over the limit - always used to involve a phone call for authorisation

 

[Marton]

Just been for a quick trip out tonight and noticed that Marton station on the Esk Valley line now has a sign about Penalty fares up at the entrance to the station and on the platform.

Marton has a new TVM. James Cook, Gypsy Lane & Nunthorpe do not currently have TVMs and do not currently have any signs up about a Penalty fare scheme. There are other stations further up the line that do not currently have TVMs. I wonder if Northern are going to Penalty Fare the schoolkids that travel to and from Whitby and the folks that have learning difficulties. I trust that most of the guards I know, who are used to the 'regulars' would show discretion.

I saw this too. I tried to get a promise to pay - If the machine does it, it's not obvious how.

Catch 22?

 

[janb]

I saw this too. I tried to get a promise to pay - If the machine does it, it's not obvious how.

Catch 22?

Promise to Pay option only gets downloaded to the TVMs when a penalty fare zone goes live.

 

[Starmill]

hypothetically fare dodgers could buy burley Park singles just to get through barrier? But whonest ppl queuing up get fined

This ie exactly right, and this has been the case at Leeds for years.

 

[woody505]

This ie exactly right, and this has been the case at Leeds for years.

but before staff could spot the odd one out if a burley park train hadn't been for a while, now they can just avoid excess fare office and just buy it from the machine ?

 

[Starmill]

A ticket machine which offers ToD has been availabile inside the gates at Leeds for years. More recently one which sells tickets has been offered too.

 

[bearhugger]

I saw this too. I tried to get a promise to pay - If the machine does it, it's not obvious how.

Catch 22?

I've had a play around with the machine too. There seems to be a couple of steps too many to purchase a ticket, for example if you choose an off peak ticket a splash screen tells you to check the T&C's / restrictions but doesn't tell you how to or give you a chance to check them until you click ok and go to the next screen, which tells you the restrictions.

Promise to Pay option only gets downloaded to the TVMs when a penalty fare zone goes live.

There is nothing on the signage or elsewhere bthats gives the impression that the scheme hasn't actually gone live yet. If i was an average person who didn't read this forum, i would assume that the Penalty Fare scheme is already running.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Is there not a button that says "promise to pay" ? There was in the Flowbird office in Poole last week.

 

[Starmill]

Is there not a button that says "promise to pay" ? There was in the Flowbird office in Poole last week.

What, just on the front page of the ticket machine? No. That is not how you dispense them.

 

[bearhugger]

Is there not a button that says "promise to pay" ?

Ha! If only it were that simple! That would be an excellent piece of user interface on any modern TVM!

 

[johntea]

but before staff could spot the odd one out if a burley park train hadn't been for a while, now they can just avoid excess fare office and just buy it from the machine ?

...or they could just avoid both and buy one using the Northern app sadly!

 

[Killingworth]

...or they could just avoid both and buy one using the Northern app sadly!

Everybody doesn't use a smartphone, and not everybody who does is comfortable using an app. I have a perfectly satisfactory Nokia Lumia phone which has a Windows operating system. It seems I'm now being compelled to buy a new phone.

Anyway, the Hope Valley line becomes a Penalty Fares Zone from 6th December. That will go down well for Sheffield commuters at Grindleford for example, with one machine on the Manchester bound platform, and at Dore & Totley when the single platform may hold 100 people who will need tickets or a promise to pay voucher. No chance of that, and the conductor will fare little better in the 6 minutes to Sheffield. I know, they'll all troop off to join the queues at the booking office, Sheffield being an open station. Fortunately Revenue Protection staff are on the Dore platform Monday, Wednesday and Friday. One sometimes does wonder.............

 

[Clip]

What, just on the front page of the ticket machine? No. That is not how you dispense them.

Ive seen a button for the P2P on a few TVMs now - maybe the ones at Leeds havent been updated to reflect this yet

 

[Bantamzen]

Is there not a button that says "promise to pay" ? There was in the Flowbird office in Poole last week.

What, just on the front page of the ticket machine? No. That is not how you dispense them.

Ha! If only it were that simple! That would be an excellent piece of user interface on any modern TVM!

The single button P2P option was tried last year when the first lines went to penalty fares. The TVMs were quickly emptied of ticket stocks, often conveniently left lying around the stations by the local youths involved in emptying the machines. The option was quickly removed.

 

[Marton]

...or they could just avoid both and buy one using the Northern app sadly!

It seems hit and miss as to whether mobile is offered on the App.
I have also had one TOC guard saying he couldn't read it because it was another TOC's App - that surprises me (I forget which, but between TPE/Northern and LNER)

 

[Wallsendmag]

It seems hit and miss as to whether mobile is offered on the App.
I have also had one TOC guard saying he couldn't read it because it was another TOC's App - that surprises me (I forget which, but between TPE/Northern and LNER)

A barcode is a barcode as long as your TIS has the correct key loaded.

 

[Clip]

At an unstaffed station that is Blackpool south which puts paid to the people’s idea that they don’t explain stuff to folk

 

[Marton]

Interesting that is is no card. Not that I don’t want to pay by card.

What is I want to use cash or rail vouchers. Am I denied the choice?

 

[Deerfold]

At an unstaffed station that is Blackpool south which puts paid to the people’s idea that they don’t explain stuff to folk

All it shows it that there's explanations at Blackpool South. Have they added this to the other ticket machines?

 

[Merseysider]

The fact that a Penalty Fares scheme covers unstaffed stations is poor practice in and of itself.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Interesting that is is no card. Not that I don’t want to pay by card.

What is I want to use cash or rail vouchers. Am I denied the choice?

You are entitled to pay by any valid payment method you like when travelling on National Rail services. A Penalty Fares scheme cannot affect that.

Northern would like passengers who board at stations within their Penalty Fares scheme to obtain a Promise to Pay notice if they cannot use the ticketing facilities available at the station for whatever reason.

However I see no reference to any such kind of notice in The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, and as such, I don't think that any such requirement is enforceable in the least (quite ignoring their generally non-Regulations complaint signage and/or placement thereof).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The fact that a Penalty Fares scheme covers unstaffed stations is poor practice in and of itself.

Such as the entirety of Metrolink?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are entitled to pay by any valid payment method you like when travelling on National Rail services. A Penalty Fares scheme cannot affect that.

Northern would like passengers who board at stations within their Penalty Fares scheme to obtain a Promise to Pay notice if they cannot use the ticketing facilities available at the station for whatever reason.

However I see no reference to any such kind of notice in The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, and as such, I don't think that any such requirement is enforceable in the least (quite ignoring their generally non-Regulations complaint signage and/or placement thereof).

They are basically Permits to Travel which do.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

They are basically Permits to Travel which do.

Would you like to cite where Permits to Travel exist in the current Regulations? They have been removed entirely as far as I can see. The only possible basis on which you could say they still have any basis, is if you interpret Regulation 6(4)(b) in the strictest possible sense and say that you cannot rely on a payment method unavailable at the time of travel, and hence a Permit to Travel, Promise to Pay Notice etc. is required in order to have written permission to board without a valid ticket.

I mean, to be honest, it's all rather theoretical, given the vast array of other bases of appeal, and the fact that Penalty Fares are categorically not enforced at Court. They are withdrawn and then prosecution is begun - but the rules for prosecution are very substantially different (e.g. you cannot be convicted merely for not having a ticket if the payment method you wanted to use is not available although it is accepted).

 

[Kite159]

The fact that a Penalty Fares scheme covers unstaffed stations is poor practice in and of itself.

A good number stations in the South East are included in penalty fare areas but are unstaffed (or staffed for a couple hours a day) it isn't a Northern only problem

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would you like to cite where Permits to Travel exist in the current Regulations? They have been removed entirely as far as I can see. The only possible basis on which you could say they still have any basis, is if you interpret Regulation 6(4)(b) in the strictest possible sense and say that you cannot rely on a payment method unavailable at the time of travel, and hence a Permit to Travel, Promise to Pay Notice etc. is required in order to have written permission to board without a valid ticket..

I stand corrected on that - certainly they still exist in a few places down South, though not many now. That said, 6(4) requires one to use a method of payment *normally accepted at that location*. Cash is not normally accepted at those locations, so Northern is actually offering a concession so far as the rules go.

FWIW, most other TOCs concede to acceptance of cash without this. But it seems they don't *have* to. This being the case, will we indeed see what I suggested in another thread at some point soon - a cessation of cash acceptance at unstaffed stations?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I stand corrected on that - certainly they still exist in a few places down South, though not many now. That said, 6(4) requires one to use a method of payment *normally accepted at that location*. Cash is not normally accepted at those locations, so Northern is actually offering a concession so far as the rules go.

FWIW, most other TOCs concede to acceptance of cash without this. But it seems they don't *have* to. This being the case, will we indeed see what I suggested in another thread at some point soon - a cessation of cash acceptance at unstaffed stations?

I don't think so. There are plenty of passengers out there (children in particular) who don't have a card and frankly I think it's unreasonable to expect everyone to pay by card (maybe not in ten years' time, but at the moment it still is). Cash remains an acceptable payment method throughout the National Rail network.

So whilst you could, in the strictest possible reading of Regulation 6(4)(b) be liable for a Penalty Fare if you tried to use a payment method which the available ticketing facilities do not cater for, I think this is almost certainly overridden by the fact that NRE, the TOCs, everyone really accepts the fact that cash is an acceptable payment method - and that in itself is permission to board without a valid ticket. If any such situation were ever to arise I would feel confident in advising the recipient of such a Penalty Fare to consider it invalid!

Certainly a Byelaws prosecution would fail (as nothing equivalent to Regulation 6(4)(b) is used when determining whether ticketing facilities are deemed to exist), though of course RoRA is a different beast altogether (and not buying a ticket because you're trying to dodge the fare could still lead to conviction here as the availability of ticketing facilities at the origin are not a prerequisite to a conviction).

 

[Starmill]

Cash is not normally accepted at those locations, so Northern is actually offering a concession so far as the rules go.

This sounds like a load of nonsense to me.

Such as the entirety of Metrolink?

Where cash is accepted at all stops? Funnily enough in the same city where Northern operate lots of trains but have decided that accepting cash at stations when they're unstaffed is not for them?