Northern Penalty Fare Scheme (as of 14 May 2018)

[cuccir]

It clearly all depends on investment: if Northern invest in infrastructure, ideally TVMs, then fine. If not, then we see enough cases in the Disputes forum for me to be convinced that a penalty fare scheme, without ticket buying facilities, generates the conditions where customers fully intending to buy tickets are subject to incorrect fares that they either pay, or spend their own time/effort in challenging.

 

[roversfan2001]

Euxton now has a TVM.

Must be very new then as NRE hasn’t been updated to reflect this. Either way, a card-only TVM isn’t really sufficient for a station to be included in a PF scheme; I’m sure there’s a government document outlining what’s required for a PF scheme to be introduced, with a large number of Northern stations falling well short of these. I think @ForTheLoveOf knows more on this point.

 

[northwichcat]

Must be very new then as NRE hasn’t been updated to reflect this. Either way, a card-only TVM isn’t really sufficient for a station to be included in a PF scheme; I’m sure there’s a government document outlining what’s required for a PF scheme to be introduced, with a large number of Northern stations falling well short of these. I think @ForTheLoveOf knows more on this point.

A lot of new TVMs are appearing. Unfortunately, Northern seem to be making it a higher priority to put one at very lightly used stations than to put additional ones at busier stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A lot of new TVMs are appearing. Unfortunately, Northern seem to be making it a higher priority to put one at very lightly used stations than to put additional ones at busier stations.

If implementing PFs are the priority, they have the correct priority. You can't have an effective PF scheme on a route where there are stations without a TVM, because people will just lie and say they got on there.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I don't see that, under the current (new) Penalty Fares Regulations, it is mandatory to have specific purchasing facilities at every included station - let alone purchasing facilities at all. It would be very stupid, but as far as I can see, in theory it would be possible to institute a Penalty Fares scheme where none of the included stations have any means to purchase the ticket! Obviously it would not be possible to issue Penalty Fares from those stations, so it makes little sense.

 

[ag51ruk]

Must be very new then as NRE hasn’t been updated to reflect this. Either way, a card-only TVM isn’t really sufficient for a station to be included in a PF scheme; I’m sure there’s a government document outlining what’s required for a PF scheme to be introduced, with a large number of Northern stations falling well short of these. I think @ForTheLoveOf knows more on this point.

The Northern card only machines also issue Promise to Pay tickets for anyone wishing to pay by cash (and presumably also if you want to buy a ticket using a card that isn't available from the machine)

 

[roversfan2001]

The Northern card only machines also issue Promise to Pay tickets for anyone wishing to pay by cash (and presumably also if you want to buy a ticket using a card that isn't available from the machine)

All the posters explicitly say that you may only pay in cash only if you obtain a promise to pay. What happens in practice I’m not sure yet, I may have reason to try it out tomorrow morning. But the posters suggest that if you wish to buy a ticket that’s not available at the machines by card then you’re in a bit of a pickle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see that, under the current (new) Penalty Fares Regulations, it is mandatory to have specific purchasing facilities at every included station - let alone purchasing facilities at all. It would be very stupid, but as far as I can see, in theory it would be possible to institute a Penalty Fares scheme where none of the included stations have any means to purchase the ticket! Obviously it would not be possible to issue Penalty Fares from those stations, so it makes little sense.

It's not so much the Regulations, but more that any station in a PF area that has no sales facilities provides a loophole for people stating they came from there to avoid a PF.

OK, occasionally you can trap such people by putting RPIs there selling tickets, but that'll only work once in a while. If you put them there all the time, you might as well put them in a building so they have somewhere warm and dry to sit while selling tickets, you could even call it a ticket office.

 

[Puffing Devil]

All the posters explicitly say that you may only pay in cash only if you obtain a promise to pay. What happens in practice I’m not sure yet, I may have reason to try it out tomorrow morning. But the posters suggest that if you wish to buy a ticket that’s not available at the machines by card then you’re in a bit of a pickle.

The advice from the Twitter team was to get a PTP and buy the ticket you really need on the train. For example, get a PTP from Chelford to Manchester and ask for a Wayfarer when you get a chance.

 

[roversfan2001]

The advice from the Twitter team was to get a PTP and buy the ticket you really need on the train. For example, get a PTP from Chelford to Manchester and ask for a Wayfarer when you get a chance.

In my case tomorrow, the ticket I’ll be buying is a season, which I’m not sure can be sold on board now it’s the paper roll tickets. I guess that means I’ll have to buy it at Preston, which completely defeats the point of the scheme.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my case tomorrow, the ticket I’ll be buying is a season, which I’m not sure can be sold on board now it’s the paper roll tickets. I guess that means I’ll have to buy it at Preston, which completely defeats the point of the scheme.

Pretty sure weekly seasons can be sold on bog-roll. They can also be sold from TVMs, unless Northern's ones are that bad.

Were monthly and longer ever available on train? They weren't in SPORTIS days.

 

[roversfan2001]

Pretty sure weekly seasons can be sold on bog-roll. They can also be sold from TVMs, unless Northern's ones are that bad.

Were monthly and longer ever available on train? They weren't in SPORTIS days.

7 days can from TVMs, but not if the origin is a different station.

 

[Starmill]

If you already have a photocard, you can buy a 7 Day Season on the train (as long as it's not a Travelcard Season or a product that must be loaded onto a Smartcard).

 

[bearhugger]

How is this going to work? Not one of the intermediate stations have TVMs. Are they planning to install them? Never mind the relative effort taken to access the stations - I hope the RPIs have their walking boots to cross the field to Commondale!

If this were compelling Northern to provide ticket buying facilities at these stations then fine; but this seems a very bizarre notion that you can have a penalty fare scheme on a line which can only operate with a buy on board scheme at all but its terminus stations.

TVMs have been installed, but not at all stations along the line. The one at Marton was installed between the 14th & 21st September. The others that have been installed, were in a rolling program around that time period too.
Whitby, Danby, Great Ayton & Danby definately have a TVM, James Cook, Gypsy Lane definately don't. I heard that Kidale wasn't due to get one but I don't know if that was hearsay. As for the rest of the stations I'm not sure whether they have one, I will try and keep an eye out next time I travelalong the line.
As an aside, the line has along it's route Botton village which is home to the largest community of people with learning difficulties (https://www.cvt.org.uk/communities/botton-village) and some of those folk regularly go to Commondale to Beyond Boundaries (http://www.eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/stations/commondale.html) and also to Whitby and Teesside. How will these folk cope with PF's and TVMs?
The user interface isn't brilliant (although it could have been a lot worse) and I don't think it's very accessible for partially sighted people either - I can't work out how to make text bigger for example.

 

[northwichcat]

7 days can from TVMs, but not if the origin is a different station.

Can weekly seasons be purchased online to collect from a TVM? I seem to recall Southern saying you could buy weekly season tickets online but there was something about it wasn't available across all operators so they only sell weekly seasons for Southern routes online.

 

[johntea]

Very misleading signage at the entrance to Wakefield Kirkgate station!

 

[woody505]

A friend got fined last week at Leeds Station for not buying a ticket before boarding. They where running late and just hopped on everyday they see the conductor selling tickets no problem with no warning. On this occasion conductors machine was broken and was advising ppl they would have to que at the excess fare window didn't even mention the potential problem. So inconsistent with the policy. I've seen the card collection only machine on the platform side but there's a new one aswell now not sure what sort, and this is before you get too the ppl who fine you? So this makes them pointless hypothetically fare dodgers could buy burley Park singles just to get through barrier? But whonest ppl queuing up get fined

 

[Kite159]

A friend got fined last week at Leeds Station for not buying a ticket before boarding. They where running late and just hopped on everyday they see the conductor selling tickets no problem with no warning. On this occasion conductors machine was broken and was advising ppl they would have to que at the excess fare window didn't even mention the potential problem. So inconsistent with the policy. I've seen the card collection only machine on the platform side but there's a new one aswell now not sure what sort, and this is before you get too the ppl who fine you? So this makes them pointless hypothetically fare dodgers could buy burley Park singles just to get through barrier? But whonest ppl queuing up get fined

Folk buying tickets to/from the closest station to get through the barriers is sadly nothing new (Edge Hill is a very popular station from Lime Street these days). They just need to be clever enough to know how to use the TVMs to sell from another location and hope they don't get caught.

Besides isn't £20 slightly better than details taken down for a letter asking for £80+ to be sent a couple weeks later?

 

[woody505]

Conductors get a commission from each sale so can understand they want too sell as many as they can but gives wrong impression to customer that its OK too jump on when your running late. If the conductor can get down the train happens all the time where no check is done and their only saying does anybody still need to buy a ticket. If I was in their shoes mite do the same thing rather than checking everybody just sell too the last little bit who take there chances and make their commission.

 

[Bantamzen]

A friend got fined last week at Leeds Station for not buying a ticket before boarding. They where running late and just hopped on everyday they see the conductor selling tickets no problem with no warning. On this occasion conductors machine was broken and was advising ppl they would have to que at the excess fare window didn't even mention the potential problem. So inconsistent with the policy. I've seen the card collection only machine on the platform side but there's a new one aswell now not sure what sort, and this is before you get too the ppl who fine you? So this makes them pointless hypothetically fare dodgers could buy burley Park singles just to get through barrier? But whonest ppl queuing up get fined

The Penalty Fare scheme does not mean guards cannot sell tickets on-board, indeed there will be situations where it is necessary for them to do so. But the risk is if a passenger does not take an opportunity to buy before boarding where methods are available to them, or at least obtain a Promise To Pay, then they run the risk of getting a Penalty Fare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very misleading signage at the entrance to Wakefield Kirkgate station!

That is authority to travel in my view and would have reasonable likelihood of standing up in Court.

 

[cuccir]

TVMs have been installed, but not at all stations along the line. The one at Marton was installed between the 14th & 21st September. The others that have been installed, were in a rolling program around that time period too.
Whitby, Danby, Great Ayton & Danby definately have a TVM, James Cook, Gypsy Lane definately don't. I heard that Kidale wasn't due to get one but I don't know if that was hearsay. As for the rest of the stations I'm not sure whether they have one, I will try and keep an eye out next time I travelalong the line.

Interesting - I tend to only use the line as a tourist a couple of times a year to facilitate one way hiking routes. Good to hear that they are making the investment.

As an aside, the line has along it's route Botton village which is home to the largest community of people with learning difficulties (https://www.cvt.org.uk/communities/botton-village) and some of those folk regularly go to Commondale to Beyond Boundaries (http://www.eskvalleyrailway.co.uk/stations/commondale.html) and also to Whitby and Teesside. How will these folk cope with PF's and TVMs?.

Ah we stumbled across that place a few years back when out walking - we weren't expecting to find a village up the top of the valley, it's an unusual and well-hidden site. You'd hope that setting this group of people up to be able to use the TVMs and work with the PF system would be where the role of the community rail officer would come in.

 

[xotGD]

The Northern card only machines also issue Promise to Pay tickets for anyone wishing to pay by cash (and presumably also if you want to buy a ticket using a card that isn't available from the machine)

And for those who don't wish to pay, but will do if challenged.

 

[Ianigsy]

I noticed last week that Menston has now acquired a machine on the Leeds & Bradford-bound platform, which has been sorely needed for a long time- until recently the only ticket machine was on the platform side of the ticket office.

 

[bearhugger]

Just been for a quick trip out tonight and noticed that Marton station on the Esk Valley line now has a sign about Penalty fares up at the entrance to the station and on the platform.

Marton PFN Platform

• bearhugger
• 6 Nov 2018

Penalty Fare Notice on the platform of Marton station.

In the photo below, the new TVM ison the left of the ramp and the new sign is on the right.

Marton PFN Entrance

• bearhugger
• 6 Nov 2018

Penalty Fare Notice at the entrance to Marton station.

If implementing PFs are the priority, they have the correct priority. You can't have an effective PF scheme on a route where there are stations without a TVM, because people will just lie and say they got on there.

I don't see that, under the current (new) Penalty Fares Regulations, it is mandatory to have specific purchasing facilities at every included station - let alone purchasing facilities at all. It would be very stupid, but as far as I can see, in theory it would be possible to institute a Penalty Fares scheme where none of the included stations have any means to purchase the ticket! Obviously it would not be possible to issue Penalty Fares from those stations, so it makes little sense.

Marton has a new TVM. James Cook, Gypsy Lane & Nunthorpe do not currently have TVMs and do not currently have any signs up about a Penalty fare scheme. There are other stations further up the line that do not currently have TVMs. I wonder if Northern are going to Penalty Fare the schoolkids that travel to and from Whitby and the folks that have learning difficulties. I trust that most of the guards I know, who are used to the 'regulars' would show discretion.

 

[Deerfold]

Must be very new then as NRE hasn’t been updated to reflect this. Either way, a card-only TVM isn’t really sufficient for a station to be included in a PF scheme; I’m sure there’s a government document outlining what’s required for a PF scheme to be introduced, with a large number of Northern stations falling well short of these. I think @ForTheLoveOf knows more on this point.

Might not be that new just because it's not on NRE. A lot of Northern machines appeared without being on NRE for years. I was quite surprised Steeton and Silsden and Sowerby Bridge are now showing as having ticket machines as for at least 5 years Steeton had one whilst NRE claimed they didn't

 

[Bunglejim]

A friend got fined last week at Leeds Station for not buying a ticket before boarding. They where running late and just hopped on everyday they see the conductor selling tickets no problem with no warning. On this occasion conductors machine was broken and was advising ppl they would have to que at the excess fare window didn't even mention the potential problem. So inconsistent with the policy. I've seen the card collection only machine on the platform side but there's a new one aswell now not sure what sort, and this is before you get too the ppl who fine you? So this makes them pointless hypothetically fare dodgers could buy burley Park singles just to get through barrier? But whonest ppl queuing up get fined

I believe Leeds barrier is now in fine everyone mode. The penalty fare area is quickly covering all routes now.

I was told about a fare anomaly at Saltaire the other week which caused a young lad severe distress. The TVM showed a CDS to Crossflats at £999,999.00. Most of us would look at that and ignore it and purchase the sensibly priced SDS, however this lad was in floods of tears when the guard saw him. Posters everywhere saying you’ll get fined for not having the right ticket before you travel, he was travelling off peak so thought he MUST pay the CDS price, which he couldn’t afford.

Companies put silly prices on tickets when they want to reserve the route or ticket type for the future. These occasionally make their way into the fare manuals and machines, as did this example. Imagine if that had been on a Leeds ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I believe Leeds barrier is now in fine everyone mode. The penalty fare area is quickly covering all routes now.

I was told about a fare anomaly at Saltaire the other week which caused a young lad severe distress. The TVM showed a CDS to Crossflats at £999,999.00. Most of us would look at that and ignore it and purchase the sensibly priced SDS, however this lad was in floods of tears when the guard saw him. Posters everywhere saying you’ll get fined for not having the right ticket before you travel, he was travelling off peak so thought he MUST pay the CDS price, which he couldn’t afford.

Companies put silly prices on tickets when they want to reserve the route or ticket type for the future. These occasionally make their way into the fare manuals and machines, as did this example. Imagine if that had been on a Leeds ticket.

The ridiculous thing is that the machine's floor limit will be about £100. It simply won't sell a ticket worth more than that.

 

[Bantamzen]

The ridiculous thing is that the machine's floor limit will be about £100. It simply won't sell a ticket worth more than that.

Is that definitely the case? There are plenty of passengers who buy walk-up tickets for peak London services in my part of the world, or at least there certainly were prior to the penalty fares coming into effect. There was often a number of transactions where guards were handling well in excess of £100 just from Guiseley each morning (despite the ticket office & TVM). I'd be very surprised if the TVMs wouldn't at least allow card payments above this level with this in mind?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Is that definitely the case? There are plenty of passengers who buy walk-up tickets for peak London services in my part of the world, or at least there certainly were prior to the penalty fares coming into effect. There was often a number of transactions where guards were handling well in excess of £100 just from Guiseley each morning (despite the ticket office & TVM). I'd be very surprised if the TVMs wouldn't at least allow card payments above this level with this in mind?

Not in my experience. Maybe the limit isn't £100 but certainly a great deal of long-distance tickets simply can't be purchased from new Northern TVMs. Yet another screwup - I would understand a floor limit for cash sales, but for card sales it's frankly ridiculous.