Northern Rail - ASLEF to ballot members.

[SPADTrap]

Arguably is this not what the FBU is doing with its long campaign now of strikes over the pension dispute , and Unite did earlier this month with NHS staff going on strike .

Some industries like Retail though are ridiculously un unionized meaning employers can just do what they please.

Yes and I totally agree with it, if those who would run into my burning house to pull my sorry a** out are taking strike action I am inclined to believe their grievance is genuine.

Ask yourself why the unions on the railway are so strong and why other unions are so weak!

I have to despair when I hear the arguments "they don't know how good they have it" they do and they're fighting for it.

You're totally right about un unionised industries too.

 

[muz379]

Yes and I totally agree with it, if those who would run into my burning house to pull my sorry a** out are taking strike action I am inclined to believe their grievance is genuine.

Ask yourself why the unions on the railway are so strong and why other unions are so weak!

I have to despair when I hear the arguments "they don't know how good they have it" they do and they're fighting for it.

You're totally right about un unionised industries too.

Oh I fully support the FBU - but then I am slightly biased as a non operational volunteer with my local brigade .But I wouldnt want a 60 year old fireman trying to rescue me , just like I wouldnt want a 60 year old policeman trying to save me from some axe murderer .


Theres a plethora of reasons why some unions are strongly unionized and some arent tho .

Take railways , its just historically always been that way

Retail - the main problem is the high turnover of staff people temp working there and students and young people just seeing it as a saturday job .

I get what you are saying that people on the railway are fighting for their pay and conditions . However sometimes when listening to some of the moaners in the mess room that have been on a while that either dont know or remember work outside of the railway I do wonder . I worked as a junior manager in retail before working on the railway . And it wasnt through any fault of mine because I was a fully paid up union member that my colleagues didnt see unions as a good thing . And My conditions where diabolical 50 hour week , pretty much expected overtime and all that jazz

 

[PG]

Ah yes, muz379 thanks for informing 'an outsider', it paints it somewhat differently if the current owners won't be jeopardising their future if they aren't jointly bidding for the franchise again - I guess they can, to some extent, go for the 'scorched earth' approach and leave the new operator to sort out the mess!
I also stand corrected on the, even longer, recruitment time scale.

Have to agree wholeheartedly with what SPADtrap has said, I think drivers can see back to the time when their pay wasn't anything to write home about which is all the more reason to fight for what they have now - after all if one TOC succeeded in eroding drivers pay whilst keeping drivers you can bet your bottom dollar the other TOCs would soon follow suit!

 

[WCMLaddict]

http://imgur.com/tk3BZiK

http://imgur.com/jXzuJlj
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http://imgur.com/jXzuJIj

Jay,

I think you should be careful about publicly sharing internal briefs of any organisation, be it your employer or union.

 

[muz379]

Those breifs also actually confirm that Managers wont be asked to drive trains . And they dont explicitly state that those who vote yes and strike wont get backpay or a payrise .

It just says nothing can be guranteed which is employer trash talk

 

[LateThanNever]

Alex Hynes said recently on a radio program he did that its 36 months to train a driver which is in line with my understanding of matters . So even if you have a driver shortage today unless you can get loads of qualified drivers in or get people to transfer around depots to alleviate some of the shortest depots you are going to have a chronic issue of driver shortage for 36 months . But then the cycle repeats because people leave for various reasons in that 36 months .

Given that there is also a finite capacity in training resources and a lot of depots fighting to get their recruits on the courses you are leading to a bottleneck in filling the boots of Men that are leaving .

The bottleneck is in getting the recruits out driving on their own , as I said above Alex Hynes reckons its 36 months to train a driver .Its very resource heavy and those resources can only stretch so far .

If it takes 3 years to train a driver that is probably almost as long as when they started off as firemen!
That is where the problem probably lies. This is no longer an apprenticeship (or, if it is, then recruit first through other railway roles). It takes 3 years to get a degree and that includes the drinking and the academic holidays! So 3 years to be a driver (as, as far as I know, drinking and academic holidays are not included) is too long. Shorten and intensify the course and if the applicants cannot take the strain, then, if, as it seems, there are lots of applicants, get some more! Surely it is not rocket science?

 

[muz379]

If it takes 3 years to train a driver that is probably almost as long as when they started off as firemen!
That is where the problem probably lies. This is no longer an apprenticeship (or, if it is, then recruit first through other railway roles). It takes 3 years to get a degree and that includes the drinking and the academic holidays! So 3 years to be a driver (as, as far as I know, drinking and academic holidays are not included) is too long. Shorten and intensify the course and if the applicants cannot take the strain, then, if, as it seems, there are lots of applicants, get some more! Surely it is not rocket science?

Thats an interesting point actually yes , It took me 3 years to get my degree , and if I become a driver thats another 3 years . But one I wont be paying £9k a year for the privilidge of .

It is mad though its possible to fit something as apparently rigorously academic as Law into 2 years - There are some accelerated degrees for LAW now , but train drivers still take 3 years .

I personally think internal only railway recruitment wouldnt be a bad idea but obviously I dont think that's legally permitted anymore .

 

[455driver]

It only took me 15 months to become a driver from the time I walked in the door to the day I drove my first train on my own!
Where is this 3 years coming from?

 

[Tomnick]

Does it really take three years to train a driver? I can believe that it'd take that long to get a driver at a large depot, with lots of routes and traction, fully productive, but it seems rather excessive otherwise...!

 

[455driver]

Even if the depot has a lot of routes, the new drivers would only learn the work covered by the lower links.

 

[muz379]

It only took me 15 months to become a driver from the time I walked in the door to the day I drove my first train on my own!
Where is this 3 years coming from?

I believe Alex Hynes is talking about From walking in through the door till the end of the PQA scheme of assesments . You will drive a train on your own sooner than 3 years . But you still only have a restricted cab pass meaning nobody can ride with you unless a trainer or assessor etc etc

Basically from walking in off the street to in the link fully comp signing all routes and traction for their link they reckon 3 years ,

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think 'upto three years' might be a better way of putting it. 10-15 months (depending on TOC) for the basic route(s) and rules, and then additional routes as required once qualified.

When I was at Thameslink, 12 months was expected for all traction and route knowledge, even the diversionary routes, with full pay at the end of it. At the same time Southern were training drivers in south London on 455s and 456s on one or two south London routes in the same time period, with expectations to route learn additional routes after that, and pay starting lower, with increases as route/traction knowledge increased.

 

[455driver]

Some TOCs its learning, 5 day pass out and straight into the link driving on your own.
Some TOCs its learning, 5 day pass out, route learning and then into the link driving on your own.

I cant think of any circumstances where it would take 3 years from walking in and driving your first train on your own unless its the likes of West Coast or East Coast (who normally take on qualified drivers from other TOCs anyway) and so it certainly isnt relevant to the vast majority of trainees.

 

[Wolf]

Don't understand where 3 years comes into it. As far as I can see it should be around a year and a half at most till I get into my link. Around 10 months from starting classroom training to passing out and then the remainder route learning the remaing routes to be able to work turns in the bottom link !

 

[driver9000]

It only took me 15 months to become a driver from the time I walked in the door to the day I drove my first train on my own!
Where is this 3 years coming from?

Northern has a tiered pay scale for new Drivers that takes 3 years to reach full rate.

Trainee
Year 1 PQA
Year 2 PQA
Full Rate.

For some reason they always word it as though the training will take 3 years when in reality you will be qualified inside 12 months but not on full rate until you've finished your PQA time.

 

[Carlisle]

Maybe "many people" should try do something about that! Fight for yourself and your industry. I'm sure if "people" put half the effort they spent complaining about what others get into securing something for themselves they'd actually get somewhere! Horribly British thing to do, focusing on what others get and ignoring yourself for some odd reason...

Hasn't trade unionisim en masse allready tried that approach in the 1970s?, resulting eventually in a large proportion of strike weary public electing a right wing Tory government promising to curb their powers

 

[jay252]

WCMLaddict - who said I am a northern employee? Both bits of information are readily available on the Internet in the public domain. Both very easy to find.

 

[muz379]

Some TOCs its learning, 5 day pass out and straight into the link driving on your own.
Some TOCs its learning, 5 day pass out, route learning and then into the link driving on your own.

I cant think of any circumstances where it would take 3 years from walking in and driving your first train on your own unless its the likes of West Coast or East Coast (who normally take on qualified drivers from other TOCs anyway) and so it certainly isnt relevant to the vast majority of trainees.

Its not 3 years till you drive a train on your own ,

Like I said you will drive a train on your own much sooner

The pay tier is scaled though and its 3 years till you get your full salary . And roughly 3 years to get all routes and traction relevant to the lower links .

 

[Wolf]

Its not 3 years till you drive a train on your own ,

Like I said you will drive a train on your own much sooner

The pay tier is scaled though and its 3 years till you get your full salary . And roughly 3 years to get all routes and traction relevant to the lower links .

Not at my depot . You will get your routes to work the full bottom link within 6 months of passing out and you sign all traction by the time u pass out.

 

[Howardh]

As a member of the public, the 2-point-something seems a good offer on the face of it. After reading through this thread, there seems to be the option forNR drivers to move to other TOC's leaving NR short-handed and being unable to fill the gaps until recruits are fully trained.

I have no idea what the increments are (if any) for drivers staying with one TOC, but surely the way to go is to reward those staying with better pay and saving money on mass recruiting?

So my question is - how much more salary - if any - would a driver with 6 years experience get over one with 3?

 

[driver9000]

So my question is - how much more salary - if any - would a driver with 6 years experience get over one with 3?

None as a year 3 Driver will have reached full rate. However a year 1 or 2 Driver and the difference will be thousands of pounds.

 

[TDK]

If this website allowed me to upload images from my phone I would show you the evidence!

Sam old Same old post a link

 

[ANorthernGuard]

As soon as industrial action is even whispered out come the we pay your wages brigade, which by the way is getting very tiring but back to the subject in hand. From what I can gather from the drivers at my depot is that once again Northern offer the lowest pay rise compared to other TOCs and that the gap between Northern drivers and other TOCs seems to get bigger. The rmt are doing a referendum of its members before they make any decision on what the next step will be

 

[Andyh82]

Is there really that many jobs at other TOC train crew depots coming up that Northern drivers leaving to go somewhere else is so significant? Does TPE have an overly old workforce meaning there is a large number of retirements or people leaving the industry?

There is also East Coast and Virgin etc, but the crews based in the north must be tiny compared to northern's workforce.

 

[455driver]

It doesnt take that many drivers to leave to cause issues, even if the roster was fully manned there wouldnt be that many drivers sat spare, most 'as required' turns are used to cover other drivers on holiday, sick, off track or lack of route/traction knowledge. Once you take these into account you have used up the vast majority of your spare crews (the drivers you have left are the ones who have had to be taken off their booked job because they havent got the route/traction knowledge required so are not really much use), throw in a few uncovered turns (because vacancies havent been filled or drivers have just left) and you are in a water borne craft without a form of propulsion on a lake smelling rather unpleasant.

If they had sorted out the drivers lacking route/traction knowledge when they had the chance (instead of sitting on their hands and not wanting to pay drivers to work their rest days covering for other drivers learning the routes etc) then this thread wouldnt exist.

 

[wijit]

Maybe "many people" should try do something about that! Fight for yourself and your industry. I'm sure if "people" put half the effort they spent complaining about what others get into securing something for themselves they'd actually get somewhere! Horribly British thing to do, focusing on what others get and ignoring yourself for some odd reason...

Sorry, but this is a ridiculously simple view. As things stand, there is X amount of spare cash. Be that in the pocket or in any company's budget. If Unions were to get their way (in any industry) there is a knock on effect, and that is on the consumer. Putting aside the age old argument about profits (because a business with shareholders doesn't use profits the same way as one without), then if a pay rise is just given, it needs paying for. In the case of the rail industry that cost burden is placed on the consumer. Any strike requires at least some public support, the indifference to this fact by many unions will be at the cost on union members. I can almost guarantee not much support when so many have not had such rises. Public sector have had a notoriously bad deal over the last couple of years, and yet is massively unionised.
There is an underlying feeling that Unions believe there is a bottomless pit of money, and that throwing toys out of the pram is a good way to get their own way. The NHS has also been undervalued, yet the RMT would have us believe drivers deserve more than nurses? You should put things in perspective, and be happy for what is there already.
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As soon as industrial action is even whispered out come the we pay your wages brigade, which by the way is getting very tiring

Perhaps the truth of this is the reason. Passengers DO pay the wages, and are the ones who suffer the most from strikes. THAT is tiring.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As soon as industrial action is even whispered out come the we pay your wages brigade, which by the way is getting very tiring but back to the subject in hand. From what I can gather from the drivers at my depot is that once again Northern offer the lowest pay rise compared to other TOCs and that the gap between Northern drivers and other TOCs seems to get bigger. The RMT are doing a referendum of its members before they make any decision on what the next step will be

A point that may be worth considering is that Northern Rail as such may take the view that seeing as the franchise is now in its final throes and taking note that the new Scotrail franchise has gone from First to Abellio and the two current partners who operate the Northern Rail franchise are going their different ways at the end of the current extended period franchise, that any long-term Northern Rail planning that will see matters to which you allude is not worth considering.

Just a view that passed through my mind at 0445 on a Sunday morning for what it is worth.

 

[driver_m]

There is an underlying feeling that Unions believe there is a bottomless pit of money, and that throwing toys out of the pram is a good way to get their own way. The NHS has also been undervalued, yet the RMT would have us believe drivers deserve more than nurses? You should put things in perspective, and be happy for what is there already.

Unions do not believe that at all. Unlike these high end CEO's who see no shame in earning over 100 times their avarage staffers wage they do know what the real world is like. What they also know is that if company makes X percentage of Money extra compared to the last year, then the people who earned that for the company are entitled to earn a fair proportion of that. Using a nurses payrise comparison is pure emotional blackmail on your behalf. Course they should get pay rises, but why shouldn't everyone else too? Caring jobs eg. nursery nursing, care assistants for the elderly etc. are poor paying jobs and you know that when you go into it. Binmen have probably had not much in the way of a payrise either, but of course people don't use them as an example do they? PS we are represented mostly by ASLEF, though the RMT would probably believe that a nurse should be AS well paid as us, not using silly language about deserving it more.

 

[whoosh]

Deleted, wrong thread

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Perhaps the truth of this is the reason. Passengers DO pay the wages, and are the ones who suffer the most from strikes. THAT is tiring.

Passengers pay a percentage, so do Taxpayers. Whenever you pay for a product or service in your mind you pay there wages? don't be so silly yes passengers suffer from strikes which is an unfortunate side effect. Railway workers for years were on very poor money, Privatisation changed that Now yes Drivers especially are on a very good wage. However that does not mean they do not have the right to attempt to protect their income and keep parity with their colleagues from other TOC's. Drivers are on 17k (give or take) more than myself and my other Northern (West) colleagues but they fought for their wages maybe if people in other industries stuck together they would be on better pay, We tend to stick together on the railway and thats why we tend to be more successful. United we stand, Divided we fall.