Northern Rail dispatch policy.

[BestWestern]

I wonder who is best placed to close the doors, the driver or the guard?
Being able to do a visual check (direct sight, mirrors, cctv) when closing them is important imo. I can't see anything wrong closing them from the middle of the train. If there is a rule 'preferably from the back' etc there is a good reason for it, but interesting to know!

A very simple answer to that one, it's the Guard. The Driver is tucked away in a cab, and a scratchy old mirror or faded CCTV monitor is a poor substitute for having somebody stood on the platform where it is all actually happening. As you rightly say, watching the doors close is very important, and being able to actually see properly is invaluable.

 

[Anvil1984]

There is no rule in the rulebook stating we must remain by the back door just a strict instruction from Northern. Many TOCs allow the guard to leave the door as soon as the trains started moving

 

[scotsman]

I don't care about this policy. Personally, I think it is a kneejerk response to an incident. There are situations where I would report my concerns and I am sure that you would also be reaching that uncomfortable stage of this isn't right.

Indeed, and I'll tell you one thing - where the Guard chooses to open the doors from isn't one of them. I have been in situations like you describe, I can't say it was anything as minor as this though, and they were reported ASAP.

 

[BestWestern]

Some staff, rail air boat etc are happy/ enjoy discussing their jobs etc like the public taking an interest, and have nothing to hide, others are not!!

The point is that the public have no requirement to know certain aspects of the job, and staff have a duty to be professional and use discretion when having those sort of conversations. Enthusiasts are always welcome on board my train, but I'm not going to hand anybody a set of instructions on how to do my job!

 

[Anvil1984]

Oh by the way (sorry for doing this us drips and darbs) but the restriction applies only to closing the doors not opening

 

[BestWestern]

There is no rul in the rulebooke stating we must remain by the back door just a strict instruction from Northern. Many TOCs allow the guard to leave the door as soon as the trains started moving

Indeed, we have the same instruction at our shack, and I'm happy to comply with it. I'd rather see somebody fall and have the train stopped there and then than get a phone call ten minutes up the road.

 

[Zoe]

I'm not going to hand anybody a set of instructions on how to do my job!

Although anyone can buy the rule book.

 

[BestWestern]

Although anyone can buy the rule book.

True, but it contains only generic rules, not a detailed guide of things like how to carry out door operation or what certain items of cab equipment are on a particular type of traction. It's also reasonable to suggest that much of what's written in there would mean little to somebody who hasn't had certain aspects of Rules and PTS training.

 

[myboysam]

Isn't the OP the same person who was questioning the 2 buzzes policy. I get the feeling he likes to know the ins and outs of anything and everything.

If the onboard staff are acting in a professional manner and as per the rule book then there is no need for any enthusiast to question why we do what we do.

 

[BestWestern]

Isn't the OP the same person who was questioning the 2 buzzes policy. I get the feeling he likes to know the ins and outs of anything and everything.

If the onboard staff are acting in a professional manner and as per the rule book then there is no need for any enthusiast to question why we do what we do.

Yup, the very same. Unfortunately some of his posts in this thread seem to now have started disappearing, with the result that others' perfectly reasonable replies to said posts have been deleted by the Mods, despite still making sense as the post being replied to was quoted. Makes for a rather selective argument, I feel

 

[scotsman]

Isn't the OP the same person who was questioning the 2 buzzes policy. I get the feeling he likes to know the ins and outs of anything and everything.

If the onboard staff are acting in a professional manner and as per the rule book then there is no need for any enthusiast to question why we do what we do.

He replied saying that he had a vested interest, since he paid a substantial amount of his money for Guards to do their jobs properly(!)

You can decide what was implied there...

 

[Cliveblackpool]

A very simple answer to that one, it's the Guard. The Driver is tucked away in a cab, and a scratchy old mirror or faded CCTV monitor is a poor substitute for having somebody stood on the platform where it is all actually happening. As you rightly say, watching the doors close is very important, and being able to actually see properly is invaluable.

I would agree with that one!
When visiting places where the driver closes the doors, there has been a large mirror or 2, and or 2/3 large cctv screens next to his cab on the platform.

 

[myboysam]

He replied saying that he had a vested interest, since he paid a substantial amount of his money for Guards to do their jobs properly(!)

You can decide what was implied there...

Isnt it the TOC which pays a substantial amount of money to train guards to do their jobs properly and not an enthusiasts personal money which goes directly to the guard????

Surely if the CTM had any concerns for the behaviour of the guard then I'm sure the correct personal improvement plan would be implemented.

This is a difficult one because while the passengers do have an interest in the onboard staff performing their duties in a professional manner, and the guard providing the right level of professionalism, there has to be a line drawn between it becoming someone just trying to stitch staff up because they think they know better as they have been an enthusiast and a flagrent breech of the rule book.

 

[150222]

He replied saying that he had a vested interest, since he paid a substantial amount of his money for Guards to do their jobs properly(!)

You can decide what was implied there...

That wasn't me.



Yes, I did question the 2 buzzes policy for reason's detailed in that thread. Also It was the mods who deleted my posts as they were deemed 'inapropriate' and as others had quoted them they must have had to be removed as well.

 

[BestWestern]

Again, if there is a genuine suspicion that a member of staff is unfit, the obvious example being on a train and visibly p!ssed, then of course it should be reported. And indeed it has been a number of times over the years, and some (very stupid) members of staff have lost their jobs for it.

But worrying about which set of doors the Guard chooses to stand at when dispatching the train is going too far, and has nothing to do with the passenger. Neither has the precise moment at which a Driver returns the Ready to Start

 

[ANorthernGuard]

To clear this up once and for all

On all Diesel traction the doors MUST be closed from the rear and we stand by the doors until the end of the set/sets has cleared the platform

The doors can be OPENED from the front but not CLOSED (in other words once opened walk to the rear of the train and close doors from there)

If a set is locked out of use the doors are worked from the rear of the Train IN USE

Class 323's doors can be worked from the middle as there are no GRAB RAILS on the unit.


There ya go

 

[150222]

Again, if there is a genuine suspicion that a member of staff is unfit, the obvious example being on a train and visibly p!ssed, then of course it should be reported. And indeed it has been a number of times over the years, and some (very stupid) members of staff have lost their jobs for it.

But worrying about which set of doors the Guard chooses to stand at when dispatching the train is going too far, and has nothing to do with the passenger. Neither has the precise moment at which a Driver returns the Ready to Start

I fear you may have slightly mis-interpreted my post however fair play to you.

 

[GB]

Isn't the OP the same person who was questioning the 2 buzzes policy. I get the feeling he likes to know the ins and outs of anything and everything.

If the onboard staff are acting in a professional manner and as per the rule book then there is no need for any enthusiast to question why we do what we do.

Wasn't he also the same op that questioned the fact a member of staff entered the driving cab while in motion?

And the same OP that questioned a driver changing a destination blind in motion?

I see pattern here :roll:

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Wasn't he also the same op that questioned the fact a member of staff entered the driving cab while in motion?

And the same OP that questioned a driver changing a destination blind in motion?

I see pattern here :roll:

management sniffing lol

Times like this i'm glad I follow the rules and never put myself at risk from a "helpful" member of the public

 

[150222]

Wasn't he also the same op that questioned the fact a member of staff entered the driving cab while in motion?

And the same OP that questioned a driver changing a destination blind in motion?

I see pattern here :roll:

Not exactly. It was the guard entering the drivers cab on a pacer on a rather congested line. Also I questioned trains displaying incorrect destination displays and the discussion led on to what you mentioned.


I don't know what 'pattern' you see here however those threads are 6 months old.

 

[Anvil1984]

To clear this up once and for all

On all Diesel traction the doors MUST be closed from the rear and we stand by the doors until the end of the set/sets has cleared the platform

The doors can be OPENED from the front but not CLOSED (in other words once opened walk to the rear of the train and close doors from there)

If a set is locked out of use the doors are worked from the rear of the Train IN USE

Class 323's doors can be worked from the middle as there are no GRAB RAILS on the unit.


There ya go

Sorry mate Ill take it off forum on PMs if you wish but that is not instructionwe have for DMUs at our gaffe

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Sorry mate Ill take it off forum on PMs if you wish but that is not instructionwe have for DMUs at our gaffe

Is at my side m8, seems to me each depot has there own interpretation.

 

[150222]

management sniffing lol

Times like this i'm glad I follow the rules and never put myself at risk from a "helpful" member of the public

There is no point being sarky as even if I did see you doing something trivial which was against the rules I wouldn't report it (only if it looked serious). As I have said previously I have seen some possibly serious incidents yet never reported anything. I'm also not really an enthusiast as I don't travel on/'spot' trains for pleasure. More like someone who is generally concerned about safety. I'm mainly intrested in design/engineering/infranstructure anyway.

 

[Anvil1984]

Thats the problem though. Our instruction is plainly never close doors at the front and thats the interpretation for most of East Side. Its the same written instruction on that Platform Train Interface brief but different CTMs etc...

 

[ANorthernGuard]

There is no point being sarky as even if I did see you doing something trivial which was against the rules I wouldn't report it (only if it looked serious). As I have said previously I have seen some possibly serious incidents yet never reported anything. I'm also not really an enthusiast as I don't travel on trains for pleasure. More like someone who is generally concerned about safety. I'm mainly intrested in design/engineering/infranstructure anyway.

unless you are in the know with our rule/regs/training how can you actually know what we are mean't to not to do? It would be a very rare thing for a Traincrew member to openly flaunt the rules, 99.9% are like myself who takes our job and safety extremely seriously.

 

[150222]

unless you are in the know with our rule/regs/training how can you actually know what we are mean't to not to do? It would be a very rare thing for a Traincrew member to openly flaunt the rules, 99.9% are like myself who takes our job and safety extremely seriously.

I am aware that the vast majority of staff never flaunt the rules and are true profesionals, Like your good self I presume. Although of course I can't claim to know all the rules I have observed what guards do (in the course of my journey. Not delibrately stalking then lol) and get the general idea. Additionally many of the rules are mentioned on the forum (by you, 175001 and Anvil1984 among others) and therefor I am reasonably in the know in that respect

 

[Greenback]

I am aware that the vast majority of staff never flaunt the rules and are true profesionals, Like your good self I presume. Although of course I can't claim to know all the rules I have observed what guards do (in the course of my journey. Not delibrately stalking then lol) and get the general idea. Additionally many of the rules are mentioned on the forum (by you, 175001 and Anvil1984 among others) and therefor I am reasonably in the know in that respect

I do not think that the fact that rules are mentioned on this forum provides sufficient information about the wording of the rule, it's context, or it's relationship to any other rule or rules to allow anyone to claim that they are in the know.

Picking up snippets of information here and there, whether on a forum or through observation, leads me to think of the phrase 'a little information can do a lot of harm'. There is nothing wrong in being inquisitive, or wanting to learn, but please be careful not to give the wrong impression.

 

[spacehopper]

Is at my side m8, seems to me each depot has there own interpretation.

Seconded- until you've been briefed you can continue to do the doors from any position. So if you see a guard doing them from front then they may still be waiting to be briefed. I've been told you can do doors from "middle" of a 158 is that the 52 or 57 end? Also heard that for depots that work ScotRail 156s (fitted with iDKS) the guard can still use the iDKS.

Obviously lot of confusion- one depot being told one thing and another depot being told opposite. MerseyRail incident that sparked this off has also been debated at length. The guard was at the back of the train and stopped the train. Why has it taken this death for people to sit up when you've had many other tragic incidents like the girl at i think Ford on the Southern and the bloke on North London Line few years back.

What about the "position yourself so you are able to see the whole length of the train" where does this stand if you have to be at the back when you are on a curved platform or where you can't see OFF indicator or signal. Stations with short platforms or local door opening? Working non gangway stock in multiple? Stations such as Shipley where you are instructed to do the doors from middle. The failure of the DKS at the rear. Lot of unanswered questions from standards. Kind of reminds you of the to swipe or not to swipe instructions on Northern.

This is just Northern- other TOCs don't care about you staying at the door leaving the platform. IMHO should never have been taken out of rule book. I'm actually quite pleased that Northern have a good POD policy. That things like the "perfect day" and regular monitoring takes place.

Oh and the only person who can monitor me on POD procedure is x2 CTM at the unobtrusive location that will have qualifications / criteria / SSMP / A1 / A2 / D32, correct forms and paperwork. There is much more to this than what a spotter on a forum thinks they know. Those of us doing the job know how deep this goes and what is actually involved. More to most things on the railway than what meets the untrained eye.

 

[150222]

The train which I was on was a 158 and they have controls at all doors.

 

[myboysam]

I can't claim to know all the rules I have observed what guards do (in the course of my journey. Not delibrately stalking then lol) and get the general idea and therefor I am reasonably in the know in that respect

Well there you have it!!!!!

I have just gone through 5 months of driver training and still have many more months of training to come and only now after completing the rules, traction and train handling would I consider myself to have a good understanding of the rules.

Its not just a case of reading them, you have to understand them, their meaning and the context of them and how they impact on other rules.

To simply "observe" and glean a general understanding is not enough my friend. You need to worry about your own job and not other peoples. Of course safety is critical and the TOC's arent stupid, they choose people who they think will carry out their rules to the best standards possible. Some people screw up and that is human nature but 99.99% of staff are superb at what they do.