Northern strike action suspended

[Tetchytyke]

So far the only victory we seem to see for Northern is that RMT have conceded to doing without a guard on every train

No they haven't. The RMT have, by and large, got what they wanted. They will, no doubt, cede some ground on driver door operation (XC have been doing that for 15 years, it's not new) but the RMT have a guard on every train. DafT wanted an OBS/TE, so long as it was convenient.

Another massive failure for Failing Grayling. But I don't think anyone is a victor.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If i remember in late November The RMT offered to suspend the strike action & run a normal Saturday service after Transport for the North said they wanted two members of staff on all trains that was with about three days before the Saturday so whats the differance between then & now......

DafT didn't want it, and now they're resigned to it. Why? Time will tell, I'm sure. I can't imagine Arriva had much more appetite for a political battle they don't really care about.

 

[WatcherZero]

Repeating the same untruth doesn't turn it into a truth.

There is an ocean of difference between an OBS and a conductor.

Your the only one talking about OBS.

We are questioning why the RMT which has always used the term Guard (even when the staff title is conductor) has suddenly started using Conductor.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/campaigns/rail/keep-your-guard-guarantee-northern-rail/

 

[bb21]

Please find the off-topic discussion on DB and its privatisation status in this separate thread.

 

[scrapy]

This must surely now mean that any further new DOO is dead.

I was surprised it wasn't imposed on the renewal of the West Midlands franchise

 

[Andyh82]

Your the only one talking about OBS.

We are questioning why the RMT which has always used the term Guard (even when the staff title is conductor) has suddenly started using Conductor.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/campaigns/rail/keep-your-guard-guarantee-northern-rail/

Yes RMT always use the term guard.

I expect it’s because conductor sounds like a role like what a bus conductor was, where they have no authority whatsoever and can do the job with a few hours training.

Guard harks back to the old days of steam, and great authority and importance which the RMT want to retain.

They also referred to the operator as ‘Northern’ rather than ‘German owned Arriva Rail North’ which is unusual for them as well.


I do find it funny though after months of threads like this with people arguing from both sides, even now the strikes are over, we’ve now got people arguing over who won or lost. I can see the thread being locked again.

 

[muz379]

Your the only one talking about OBS.

We are questioning why the RMT which has always used the term Guard (even when the staff title is conductor) has suddenly started using Conductor.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/campaigns/rail/keep-your-guard-guarantee-northern-rail/

You can put the tinfoil hat away , the RMT may well prefer the use of the term guard using it in communications about disputes at various TOC's probably makes it easier , but when at ACAS actually negotiating the actual job title of the grade in dispute will obviously be used for clarity . Today's press release by the RMT is clearly referring to what has been discussed at Acas and indicates that there has been some preliminary agreement of a "conductor" on every train . Sure the nay sayers would equally have something to say if the RMT did not quote the contents of ACAS talks accurately .

As for talk about OBS , whilst the term OBS has never been used by Northern . Prior to today's announcement all the talk had been of a "second person" but not a guarantee that they would be on every train . Today's announcement is of a guarantee of a conductor which is already a defined role at Northern .Of course part of the talks at ACAS could result in an agreement to change the definition of that role .

 

[185]

Prior to today's announcement all the talk had been of a "second person"

Did we really come that close to having a train being worked by Carlisle Revenue?

 

[syorksdeano]

As a passenger that supported the guards this is great news, but call me skeptical if you want, but I'm not buying that it's an agreement.

The apparent agreement is till the end of the franchise and we all know that apparently Northern are not making as much money as they first thought. Projects like refurbishing trains seem to be way behind schedule and stuff.

Not sure why, but I've got these feeling maybe the keys are getting handed back soon with the 'duration of the franchise' comment that has been made.

What happened to the so called inquiry that Northern wanted?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course it is for the duration of the franchise. How do you propose Arriva would agree to something beyond that? They have no legal right to do so.

 

[MCSHF007]

Great news - and the best thing of all is that we can now look forward to all Northern guards on all late night services providing a visible presence to reassure passengers (an obvious benefit long trumpeted by the R.M.T.) Win Win for all.

 

[Starmill]

we can now look forward to all Northern guards on all late night services providing a visible presence to reassure passengers

Is there any actual evidence this is going to happen? Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

 

[Killingworth]

No they haven't. The RMT have, by and large, got what they wanted. They will, no doubt, cede some ground on driver door operation (XC have been doing that for 15 years, it's not new) but the RMT have a guard on every train. DafT wanted an OBS/TE, so long as it was convenient.

Another massive failure for Failing Grayling. But I don't think anyone is a victor.

I don't mind being quoted but you've missed the point by only quoting half my first sentence without reading the second part. I said exactly what you're saying, but phrased differently. At this minute we don't know any more than that the RMT has called a guard a conductor - who'll be doing a guards job. The guard/conductor remains on every train.Northern appear to have gained nothing, yet.

So far the only victory we seem to see for Northern is that RMT have conceded to doing without a guard on every train - but the same guards will still be there on every train doing virtually the same duties but officially called conductors, which is what they've been for decades anyway. So they've agreed to use different terminology, semantics alone.

 

[Intermodal]

Is this the real life? Is this just fantasy?

 

[danbarnstall]

I smell an election

Possible DFT / Grayling have given in to get this long dragging dispute out the way? . Other areas away from the railway seem to be clearing their closets of skeletons too.

 

[XCTurbostar]

A great result and thus the Guard’s support for the RMTs capabilities as a union are restored. Now let’s get back to improving the other issues about Northern.. like the overcrowding..

 

[yorksrob]

I was surprised it wasn't imposed on the renewal of the West Midlands franchise

Too near to London presumably.

 

[Tetchytyke]

don't mind being quoted but you've missed the point by only quoting half my first sentence without reading the second part. I said exactly what you're saying, but phrased differently.

Ah sorry, I've misinterpreted what you were saying in that case.

We are questioning why the RMT which has always used the term Guard (even when the staff title is conductor) has suddenly started using Conductor.

Probably because, as is standard, the wording of any press release will have been a compromise agreement between the two parties.

Northern weren't talking about conductors either: they only ever referred to a "second person". It's only fair to interpret that as an OBS/TE type role. If they meant conductor (even conductor with a role change) they too would have said so.

You're saying that this word means the RMT haven't got anything that wasn't on offer six months ago. I'm saying you're wrong.

 

[pompeyfan]

This must surely now mean that any further new DOO is dead.

It’ll be interesting to see if this has a direct impact on South Western Railway, in my opinion it’ll go one of two ways, the DfT/SWR will fold immediately or they’ll dig their heels in so deep it’ll go to the death like on southern, either way, I predict an increase in action on the Wessex route.

Too near to London presumably.

That’s a bit of an odd comment considering the amount of disruption that Londoners and the south east commuter belt have had to go through, with disputes on SWR, FGW and GTR all about the role of the guard.

 

[HowardGWR]

Forgive me but, as an outsider with no axe to grind, I can only see one specific change in the Northern negotiating situation, which is that the RMT has suspended its action.

 

[craigybagel]

Forgive me but, as an outsider with no axe to grind, I can only see one specific change in the Northern negotiating situation, which is that the RMT has suspended its action.

RMT has suspended it's action because Northern have agreed to a conductor on ALL services. That is what this dispute has been about all along; not about who opens the doors, not about pay, but about making sure a second member of staff was on every train.

 

[Mathew S]

we can now look forward to all Northern guards on all late night services providing a visible presence to reassure passengers

If only that were true. With the honourable exception of the 2226 Manchester Piccadilly to Barrow service where the guard always comes through checking tickets before Wigan; it is very much the exception that I see a Northern guard doing any more than the absolute minimum. Yes, there are some good ones; but they seem to outnumbered in my area by staff who appear to want to avoid passengers at all costs.

RMT has suspended it's action because Northern have agreed to a conductor on ALL services. That is what this dispute has been about all along; not about who opens the doors, not about pay, but about making sure a second member of staff was on every train.

Wouldn't it have been nice if the RMT had actually said that then, rather than banging on about doors at every opportunity?

 

[Intermodal]

Wouldn't it have been nice if the RMT had actually said that then, rather than banging on about doors at every opportunity?

I have no idea what you're on about; if you look at RMT press releases this has always been the key point.

 

[Mathew S]

I have no idea what you're on about; if you look at RMT press releases this has always been the key point.

That certainly hasn't been my perception, or that of other non-enthusiast / non-railway people I've talked to over the last few months. The appearance (presented by both sides) is that the whole issue has been about who controls the doors. Only very recently have I heard either Northern or the RMT start to talk about broader issues.

 

[driver_m]

No, that was people with an agenda trying to ensure that it was only about doors, to portray rail staff as being pig headed and resistant to change. No one ever came up with a suitable comeback all the times I mentioned our way of working (and XC's) that had us in control of doors, but still kept a fully safety trained guard who could help in emergencies or when needed trackside. All RMT and ASLEF approved. The door opening control farce was a suitable bone to throw to the public sense of outrage, yet those of us who knew the EXACT and FULL issue couldn't get that point across well enough because either people wouldn't listen, they didn't buy it, or just didn't care because they mistakenly thought they'd get cheaper train travel. Question everything. Question what I've said . But too many just go for the soundbite that triggers them without actually thinking about it and applying a proper critique to something.

Look at the drone farce at Gatwick as an example. Mail insinuates couple did it, cue outrage, then when it gets disproven, couple still have to get away for their own safety. Too many people don't think properly.

 

[Bantamzen]

Northern is only a very small part of Arriva's operations!
DB has little say over Arriva, as the day to day operations are run from Sunderland not Berlin!
DB has big problems of it's own, before it starts micromanaging Arriva.
Given that DB is semi privatised, I'm not sure how much control the German government has over it!

As the single shareholder, the German government will have an interest at the very least at the state of DB & its subsidiaries. The fact that it appears that DfT have moved position on the franchise & the timing of the Brexit negotiations is interesting to say the least, remembering that there have been mutterings that DB might have been looking to offload Arriva. A sale of that particular group would be made all the more difficult with the dispute ongoing, and as such Arriva might itself want to rid itself of the Northern operation by trying to end the franchise early. Another big franchise collapse, especially one where the owning company is EU based, would not be good news for the government & could shake confidence in the economy further.

Politics is never clear cut, you have to follow the rabbit hole very deeply indeed!

 

[Robertj21a]

RMT has suspended it's action because Northern have agreed to a conductor on ALL services. That is what this dispute has been about all along; not about who opens the doors, not about pay, but about making sure a second member of staff was on every train.

Is that actually true ?
All I recall is endless debate about doors, FatCats, profits going abroad, German-owned etc etc

 

[Carlisle]

Is that actually true ?
All I recall is endless debate about doors, FatCats, profits going abroad, German-owned etc etc

I think your right, the insistence on guards closing all doors as part of any settlement was quietly dropped by the RMT once it became clear ASLEF were at least willing to negotiate on it rather than just refuse and enter an immediate dispute

 

[R G NOW.]

This must surely now mean that any further new DOO is dead.

Does this mean now, that those newly installed boxes on platform walls, are now a waste of money. These are the dispatch boxes that have new train ready, close door and right away buttons in, such as installed last april at BTM.

 

[edwin_m]

The banner ad I saw just before clicking on this topic was a warning of strikes on Northern this Saturday...