Northern timetable changes May 2019

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by absolutelymilk, 19 Jan 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,507
    Joined:
    1 Dec 2013
    I'm not sure which service you're referring to, there.

    I'm sure you would be able to manage the short walk from Wallgate to North Western off the 1720 Southport, if North Western is where you really need to be, and, as stated above, there are other options available. Cancellation of any train at peak time isn't all that clever, though.
    The Barrow should have been 1551, actually.
     
  2. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

    Messages:
    600
    Joined:
    22 Jan 2019
    In general people are put off by having to change trains.Especially if there is no guarantee of a seat which at peal I'm sure there isn't
     
  3. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

    Messages:
    600
    Joined:
    22 Jan 2019
    Also RTT says there isn't a 1720 Oxford Road to Southport train- nothing to Wallgate between 1621 and 1822 unless RTT is wrong
     
  4. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,507
    Joined:
    1 Dec 2013
    I'm sure the general public would be deterred by the prospect of changing trains, and they probably wouldn't be aware of the options anyway. As someone who I suspects knows what they're doing, I don't think you'd be unduly deterred yourself. As to being guaranteed a seat (at peak times) I think you'd need to be one of the first in line to board a train, at its originating point. I don't think there's much chance of a seat after that. Myself, I've got to the sort of age where people actually offer me their seat - of course, I always decline!

    RTT is perfectly correct, the Southport train at that time (ex-Alderley Edge, is it?) doesn't stop at Oxford Road. I actually meant 1621 Southport train. My mistake, misread my scribbles.
     
  5. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

    Messages:
    600
    Joined:
    22 Jan 2019
    I'm 49 but disabled so unable to stand for any length of time. I also live on the Calder Valley route and was just trying to sympathise with the poster who wanted Wigan.
     
  6. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,313
    Joined:
    18 Feb 2012
    Location:
    Greater Manchester
    Well, does it not cost money to short form diesel services in order to rob the units for an EMU diagram? Surely there are financial penalties for Northern failing to provide the capacity specified in the franchise agreement? If it is cheaper to pay those penalties than obtain enough trains, someone in the DfT did not do their job properly when they negotiated the agreement!
     
  7. Mogster

    Mogster Member

    Messages:
    319
    Joined:
    25 Sep 2018
    Yes, Salford is an option. There’s always the chance you won’t be able to board at Salford Crescent though, also by going there routinely you’re exposed to another source of potential service disruption... The good thing about the Wigan - Chat Moss services is that they avoid congestion and problems around the Windsor link and Salford Crescent.

    I thought there was an hourly MIA - Wigan service in the franchise agreement, also the DMU Windermere/Barrow services would be via Wigan/Chat Moss to Manchester?

    The direct service from Piccadilly/Oxford Road to Wigan is increasingly pathetic.
     
  8. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,507
    Joined:
    1 Dec 2013
    I don't know what it says in the franchise agreement, but in reality there is a service from MIA to Preston or beyond via Wigan North Western every hour from 0725 (xx.29 from 0929) to 1929 (except for 1629, when the service goes via Bolton at 1634), plus a final journey at 2210. I don't know why the 1634 goes via Bolton.

    The above incorporates the Windermere/Barrow services, the present routine is one journey in three runs to Windermere, one in three to Barrow, and one in three terminates at Preston. From 1 July the Preston terminators continue to Barrow, everything else seems to be unchanged.
     
    Last edited: 22 May 2019
  9. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

    Messages:
    10,482
    Joined:
    18 Dec 2012
    Location:
    Another planet...
    Now that Huddersfield to Wakefield Kirkgate extends to Casvegas it requires 2 units. At least one of them was a GWR-liveried 153 yesterday, it is still max. 40m due to platform 5 at HUD.
     
  10. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,313
    Joined:
    18 Feb 2012
    Location:
    Greater Manchester
    The franchise agreement specified 16 services daily from the Airport to Lancaster via Wigan North Western and Preston. By my count the current timetable provides, from July, 15 to Lancaster, of which 14 call at Wigan. This includes the 0522, which you did not mention.

    I do not know the reasons for these non-compliances, but I presume Northern has agreed them with TfN/DfT.
     
  11. p1ash

    p1ash New Member

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    11 Oct 2011
    The peak service on the Preston to Manchester via. Bolton has certainly deteriorated.
    Pre-2008 the service pattern from Chorley was good, with express services relieving the stoppers:
    • 07.15 semi-fast to Man Airport operated by 2+3 car 175 - and subsequently 2 x 185
    • 07.33 all stations to Man Pic and Greenbank operated by 2+2 car 156
    • 07.52 fast to Manchester Airport calling at Bolton and Man Ox Rd only, operated by 2+3 car 175 and latterly 3+3 185
    • 07.57 Northern express to Man Vic, calling at Lostock, Bolton, Salford Central and Man Vic, operated by 158 / 156
    • 08.03 all stations to Man Pic, operated by 2x150

    So during the key rush hour there were 22 carriages. The service provision is now 16 carriages (4No. 319s @ 07.12, 07.19, 07.33 and 08.04), with another 4 TPE carriages from Scotland passing at 07.56 skipping all stations. The loss of the peak extras are certainly being felt with the extra patronage.

    Hopefully the 323 deal is agreed and that in the peak 2x323 can replace the 4 car 319s, in addition to the new 331s.

     
  12. Mogster

    Mogster Member

    Messages:
    319
    Joined:
    25 Sep 2018
    Interesting. Thanks for the information.
     
  13. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

    Messages:
    10,482
    Joined:
    18 Dec 2012
    Location:
    Another planet...
    Speaking of the Huddersfield to Castleford service, it's a shame that for large parts of the route it's a bit redundant as it follows close behind another service. From Huddersfield to Mirfield it follows 10mins or so behind the Leeds stopper (previously it ran 7-9mins behind) and the return is worse. From Castleford to Wakefield it runs just a few minutes behind the Sheffield stopper and then still, as before, slots behind the Leeds to Huddersfield stopper at Mirfield.

    That's several journeys that have 2tph on paper but gaps of 10/50 or even 5/55.
     
  14. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

    Messages:
    21,163
    Joined:
    6 Aug 2009
    Location:
    Yorks
    Fortunately the new service does provide a few more journey opportunities back from Leeds, by changing at Wakefield.
     
  15. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,507
    Joined:
    1 Dec 2013
    According to RTT, the 0522 isn't starting until 1 July, and there's no mention of it in the current timetable booklet 27. Until then it starts Preston at 0647.

    On the post 1 July schedules RTT gives the period of operation as being 20/5/19 to 14/12/19, but it says the same in respect of the journeys which are terminating at Preston up to 30/6/19 and only being extended to Barrow after that.
     
  16. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

    Messages:
    10,482
    Joined:
    18 Dec 2012
    Location:
    Another planet...
    If you're not in a rush, changing at Cas off the Sheffield should work too. Probably more chance of a seat that way!
     
  17. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,507
    Joined:
    1 Dec 2013
    I don't know whether or not this applies in this case, but the desirability of having an even interval service often has to play second fiddle to other considerations. For instance, if the Huddersfield/Castleford service already loads to its comfortable limit, then increasing the gap between it and a preceding service would overload it.
     
  18. AMD

    AMD Member

    Messages:
    285
    Joined:
    6 Dec 2017
    A 158 is 36cm longer than a 156. I'm sure they will cope...
     
  19. AMD

    AMD Member

    Messages:
    285
    Joined:
    6 Dec 2017
    There are 'benchmarks' for short formations (among other targets). The current period breach level is 8.44%, present performance is somewhere in the region of 6%.
    The detail is in the franchise agreement, page 371/372.
     
  20. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

    Messages:
    10,482
    Joined:
    18 Dec 2012
    Location:
    Another planet...
    In the case of the Huddersfield to Castleford it's more about fitting in between the TPEs from Hudds to Thornhill (and particularly from Heaton Lodge to Thornhill). It's irritating for those making local journeys but until the route upgrade is done there isn't really an alternative (apart from running fewer, longer expresses... which isn't likely to be considered).

    For the unique journeys this service caters to (such as Huddersfield/Mirfield to Wakefield) it doesn't really matter when in the hour it runs. The issue is where it shares the route with other services but can't be timed in the opposite half hour or it'll miss its path at Mirfield.

    Loading-wise, a 153 is plenty of capacity and it only gets busy with the school/college students between Huddersfield and Wakefield. Though a fair few folk boarding at Kirkgate earlier were pleased with their extra service to Castleford.
     
  21. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

    Messages:
    21,163
    Joined:
    6 Aug 2009
    Location:
    Yorks
    The Sheffield via Cass would stop at Normy anyway.
     
  22. thejuggler

    thejuggler Member

    Messages:
    553
    Joined:
    8 Jan 2016
    This morning my service was not only running, but also running on time. My delight quickly diminished when the 4 car 142/144 and 158 combo I have become accustomed to had turned into 2 car 144.
     
  23. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

    Messages:
    10,482
    Joined:
    18 Dec 2012
    Location:
    Another planet...
    Of course... I was thinking of a way to beat crowds to Huddersfield!
     
  24. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,313
    Joined:
    18 Feb 2012
    Location:
    Greater Manchester
    Yes, the temporary short working of 1C50 (Airport d 0522, Preston d 0647) was implemented as a variation to the WTT schedule (UID Y61029). So the service does not show up in the public timetable until July, at the stations south of Preston.

    If entry into service of the 195s is further delayed beyond the end of June, no doubt the various short workings of the Barrow - Airport services will continue into July. Which would be unfortunate, as journey planners are offering tickets on the through services from 1st July.
     
  25. yorksrob

    yorksrob Veteran Member

    Messages:
    21,163
    Joined:
    6 Aug 2009
    Location:
    Yorks
    Ah yes - well, I have a direct service now :)
     
  26. 61653 HTAFC

    61653 HTAFC Established Member

    Messages:
    10,482
    Joined:
    18 Dec 2012
    Location:
    Another planet...
    The movements at Castleford to accommodate the Huddersfield service seem rather convoluted... after arrival, the crews change ends and move out along the Pontefract-bound curve to free the platform for the Leeds to Sheffield service. The crew changes ends again and comes back to the platform to start the return journey, where they must change ends again. Presumably the signalling doesn't allow the unit to move out towards York, which would mean the crew only having to change ends once rather than three times.
     
  27. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

    Messages:
    1,175
    Joined:
    4 Aug 2010
    I went for the 1051 to Preston via Wigan NW at Oxford Road today (1029 from MIA). I assumed that, as this was part a Preston/Barrow/Windermere cycle, it would be a pair of 158s, but it was a 319. As this is a 3-hour round trip all the Prestons should be the same 319. Are all the Preston terminators planned to go through to Barrow in July? If so, this will depend on class 195 deliveries. There will then be a spare 319! While I was at WNW, two 195s came through on driver training.
     
  28. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,313
    Joined:
    18 Feb 2012
    Location:
    Greater Manchester
    Back on 9th April I predicted on this thread that this temporary Airport - Preston diagram would be worked by a 319:
    Nice to be proved right!
     
  29. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

    Messages:
    1,175
    Joined:
    4 Aug 2010
    There are more examples like that, e.g. Stockport to Bolton, two an hour (as required in the franchise agreement) but less than ten minutes apart in both directions.
     
  30. Bovverboy

    Bovverboy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,507
    Joined:
    1 Dec 2013
    It's not showing in the public timetable because it isn't actually running!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page