Northern timetable changes May 2019

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,829
it was cancelled today which won't help people's mood
I'm not sure which service you're referring to, there.

The cancellation of the 1556 left no service from Oxford Road to Wigan NW between 1521 and 1754! Ouch
I'm sure you would be able to manage the short walk from Wallgate to North Western off the 1720 Southport, if North Western is where you really need to be, and, as stated above, there are other options available. Cancellation of any train at peak time isn't all that clever, though.
The Barrow should have been 1551, actually.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,829
In general people are put off by having to change trains.Especially if there is no guarantee of a seat which at peal I'm sure there isn't
I'm sure the general public would be deterred by the prospect of changing trains, and they probably wouldn't be aware of the options anyway. As someone who I suspects knows what they're doing, I don't think you'd be unduly deterred yourself. As to being guaranteed a seat (at peak times) I think you'd need to be one of the first in line to board a train, at its originating point. I don't think there's much chance of a seat after that. Myself, I've got to the sort of age where people actually offer me their seat - of course, I always decline!

Also RTT says there isn't a 1720 Oxford Road to Southport train- nothing to Wallgate between 1621 and 1822 unless RTT is wrong
RTT is perfectly correct, the Southport train at that time (ex-Alderley Edge, is it?) doesn't stop at Oxford Road. I actually meant 1621 Southport train. My mistake, misread my scribbles.
 

Glenn1969

Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,047
Location
Halifax, Yorks
I'm 49 but disabled so unable to stand for any length of time. I also live on the Calder Valley route and was just trying to sympathise with the poster who wanted Wigan.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
2,673
Location
Greater Manchester
Because it would cost money?
Well, does it not cost money to short form diesel services in order to rob the units for an EMU diagram? Surely there are financial penalties for Northern failing to provide the capacity specified in the franchise agreement? If it is cheaper to pay those penalties than obtain enough trains, someone in the DfT did not do their job properly when they negotiated the agreement!
 

Mogster

Member
Joined
25 Sep 2018
Messages
751
The replacement for the 1649 ex-MIA is 1634 MIA to Preston, via Bolton. It continues to be routed via Bolton after 1 June, when it gets extended to Barrow. I agree that's not much use for someone wanting Wigan, but there are other options available, by changing at Salford Crescent or Bolton, preferably the latter, I imagine.
Yes, Salford is an option. There’s always the chance you won’t be able to board at Salford Crescent though, also by going there routinely you’re exposed to another source of potential service disruption... The good thing about the Wigan - Chat Moss services is that they avoid congestion and problems around the Windsor link and Salford Crescent.

I thought there was an hourly MIA - Wigan service in the franchise agreement, also the DMU Windermere/Barrow services would be via Wigan/Chat Moss to Manchester?

The direct service from Piccadilly/Oxford Road to Wigan is increasingly pathetic.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,829
I thought there was an hourly MIA - Wigan service in the franchise agreement, also the DMU Windermere/Barrow services would be via Wigan/Chat Moss to Manchester?
I don't know what it says in the franchise agreement, but in reality there is a service from MIA to Preston or beyond via Wigan North Western every hour from 0725 (xx.29 from 0929) to 1929 (except for 1629, when the service goes via Bolton at 1634), plus a final journey at 2210. I don't know why the 1634 goes via Bolton.

The above incorporates the Windermere/Barrow services, the present routine is one journey in three runs to Windermere, one in three to Barrow, and one in three terminates at Preston. From 1 July the Preston terminators continue to Barrow, everything else seems to be unchanged.
 
Last edited:

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
2,673
Location
Greater Manchester
I don't know what it says in the franchise agreement, but in reality there is service from MIA to Preston and beyond via Wigan North Western every hour from 0725 (xx.29 from 0929) to 1929 (except for 1629, when the service goes via Bolton at 1634), plus a final journey at 2210. I don't know why the 1634 goes via Bolton.

The above incorporates the Windermere/Barrow services, the present routine is one journey in three runs to Windermere, one in three to Barrow, and one in three terminates at Preston. From 1 July the Preston terminators continue to Barrow, everything else seems to be unchanged.
The franchise agreement specified 16 services daily from the Airport to Lancaster via Wigan North Western and Preston. By my count the current timetable provides, from July, 15 to Lancaster, of which 14 call at Wigan. This includes the 0522, which you did not mention.

I do not know the reasons for these non-compliances, but I presume Northern has agreed them with TfN/DfT.
 

p1ash

New Member
Joined
11 Oct 2011
Messages
4
The peak service on the Preston to Manchester via. Bolton has certainly deteriorated.
Pre-2008 the service pattern from Chorley was good, with express services relieving the stoppers:
  • 07.15 semi-fast to Man Airport operated by 2+3 car 175 - and subsequently 2 x 185
  • 07.33 all stations to Man Pic and Greenbank operated by 2+2 car 156
  • 07.52 fast to Manchester Airport calling at Bolton and Man Ox Rd only, operated by 2+3 car 175 and latterly 3+3 185
  • 07.57 Northern express to Man Vic, calling at Lostock, Bolton, Salford Central and Man Vic, operated by 158 / 156
  • 08.03 all stations to Man Pic, operated by 2x150

So during the key rush hour there were 22 carriages. The service provision is now 16 carriages (4No. 319s @ 07.12, 07.19, 07.33 and 08.04), with another 4 TPE carriages from Scotland passing at 07.56 skipping all stations. The loss of the peak extras are certainly being felt with the extra patronage.

Hopefully the 323 deal is agreed and that in the peak 2x323 can replace the 4 car 319s, in addition to the new 331s.

The 0721 service from Preston to Manchester Airport is now horrendous. I'm no expert on train classes but it used to be a six carriage TPE train but now it's a four carriage electrified Northern train and it is not enough. I've boarded at Buckshaw Parkway the past two mornings and had to stand the entire way until it began clearing at Deansgate. To add insult to injury they've added stops (Leyland, Adlington, Blackrod and Deansgate). When the train reached Bolton people were being told not to attempt to board. Why have they done this? Similarly, the 1801 from Manchester Piccadilly used to be a TPE train (operated by Northern) and that was six carriages and now it's a four carriage Northern one. I can't see customers being happy if it continues like this.
 

Mogster

Member
Joined
25 Sep 2018
Messages
751
The franchise agreement specified 16 services daily from the Airport to Lancaster via Wigan North Western and Preston. By my count the current timetable provides, from July, 15 to Lancaster, of which 14 call at Wigan. This includes the 0522, which you did not mention.

I do not know the reasons for these non-compliances, but I presume Northern has agreed them with TfN/DfT.
Interesting. Thanks for the information.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
11,391
Location
Another planet...
Speaking of the Huddersfield to Castleford service, it's a shame that for large parts of the route it's a bit redundant as it follows close behind another service. From Huddersfield to Mirfield it follows 10mins or so behind the Leeds stopper (previously it ran 7-9mins behind) and the return is worse. From Castleford to Wakefield it runs just a few minutes behind the Sheffield stopper and then still, as before, slots behind the Leeds to Huddersfield stopper at Mirfield.

That's several journeys that have 2tph on paper but gaps of 10/50 or even 5/55.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
23,488
Location
Yorks
Now that Huddersfield to Wakefield Kirkgate extends to Casvegas it requires 2 units. At least one of them was a GWR-liveried 153 yesterday, it is still max. 40m due to platform 5 at HUD.
Fortunately the new service does provide a few more journey opportunities back from Leeds, by changing at Wakefield.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,829
The franchise agreement specified 16 services daily from the Airport to Lancaster via Wigan North Western and Preston. By my count the current timetable provides, from July, 15 to Lancaster, of which 14 call at Wigan. This includes the 0522, which you did not mention.
According to RTT, the 0522 isn't starting until 1 July, and there's no mention of it in the current timetable booklet 27. Until then it starts Preston at 0647.

On the post 1 July schedules RTT gives the period of operation as being 20/5/19 to 14/12/19, but it says the same in respect of the journeys which are terminating at Preston up to 30/6/19 and only being extended to Barrow after that.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,829
Speaking of the Huddersfield to Castleford service, it's a shame that for large parts of the route it's a bit redundant as it follows close behind another service. From Huddersfield to Mirfield it follows 10mins or so behind the Leeds stopper (previously it ran 7-9mins behind) and the return is worse. From Castleford to Wakefield it runs just a few minutes behind the Sheffield stopper and then still, as before, slots behind the Leeds to Huddersfield stopper at Mirfield.

That's several journeys that have 2tph on paper but gaps of 10/50 or even 5/55.
I don't know whether or not this applies in this case, but the desirability of having an even interval service often has to play second fiddle to other considerations. For instance, if the Huddersfield/Castleford service already loads to its comfortable limit, then increasing the gap between it and a preceding service would overload it.
 

AMD

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
335
Well, does it not cost money to short form diesel services in order to rob the units for an EMU diagram? Surely there are financial penalties for Northern failing to provide the capacity specified in the franchise agreement? If it is cheaper to pay those penalties than obtain enough trains, someone in the DfT did not do their job properly when they negotiated the agreement!
There are 'benchmarks' for short formations (among other targets). The current period breach level is 8.44%, present performance is somewhere in the region of 6%.
The detail is in the franchise agreement, page 371/372.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
11,391
Location
Another planet...
I don't know whether or not this applies in this case, but the desirability of having an even interval service often has to play second fiddle to other considerations. For instance, if the Huddersfield/Castleford service already loads to its comfortable limit, then increasing the gap between it and a preceding service would overload it.
In the case of the Huddersfield to Castleford it's more about fitting in between the TPEs from Hudds to Thornhill (and particularly from Heaton Lodge to Thornhill). It's irritating for those making local journeys but until the route upgrade is done there isn't really an alternative (apart from running fewer, longer expresses... which isn't likely to be considered).

For the unique journeys this service caters to (such as Huddersfield/Mirfield to Wakefield) it doesn't really matter when in the hour it runs. The issue is where it shares the route with other services but can't be timed in the opposite half hour or it'll miss its path at Mirfield.

Loading-wise, a 153 is plenty of capacity and it only gets busy with the school/college students between Huddersfield and Wakefield. Though a fair few folk boarding at Kirkgate earlier were pleased with their extra service to Castleford.
 

thejuggler

Member
Joined
8 Jan 2016
Messages
800
This morning my service was not only running, but also running on time. My delight quickly diminished when the 4 car 142/144 and 158 combo I have become accustomed to had turned into 2 car 144.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
2,673
Location
Greater Manchester
According to RTT, the 0522 isn't starting until 1 July, and there's no mention of it in the current timetable booklet 27. Until then it starts Preston at 0647.

On the post 1 July schedules RTT gives the period of operation as being 20/5/19 to 14/12/19, but it says the same in respect of the journeys which are terminating at Preston up to 30/6/19 and only being extended to Barrow after that.
Yes, the temporary short working of 1C50 (Airport d 0522, Preston d 0647) was implemented as a variation to the WTT schedule (UID Y61029). So the service does not show up in the public timetable until July, at the stations south of Preston.

If entry into service of the 195s is further delayed beyond the end of June, no doubt the various short workings of the Barrow - Airport services will continue into July. Which would be unfortunate, as journey planners are offering tickets on the through services from 1st July.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
11,391
Location
Another planet...
The movements at Castleford to accommodate the Huddersfield service seem rather convoluted... after arrival, the crews change ends and move out along the Pontefract-bound curve to free the platform for the Leeds to Sheffield service. The crew changes ends again and comes back to the platform to start the return journey, where they must change ends again. Presumably the signalling doesn't allow the unit to move out towards York, which would mean the crew only having to change ends once rather than three times.
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
1,429
I don't know what it says in the franchise agreement, but in reality there is a service from MIA to Preston or beyond via Wigan North Western every hour from 0725 (xx.29 from 0929) to 1929 (except for 1629, when the service goes via Bolton at 1634), plus a final journey at 2210. I don't know why the 1634 goes via Bolton.

The above incorporates the Windermere/Barrow services, the present routine is one journey in three runs to Windermere, one in three to Barrow, and one in three terminates at Preston. From 1 July the Preston terminators continue to Barrow, everything else seems to be unchanged.
I went for the 1051 to Preston via Wigan NW at Oxford Road today (1029 from MIA). I assumed that, as this was part a Preston/Barrow/Windermere cycle, it would be a pair of 158s, but it was a 319. As this is a 3-hour round trip all the Prestons should be the same 319. Are all the Preston terminators planned to go through to Barrow in July? If so, this will depend on class 195 deliveries. There will then be a spare 319! While I was at WNW, two 195s came through on driver training.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
2,673
Location
Greater Manchester
I went for the 1051 to Preston via Wigan NW at Oxford Road today (1029 from MIA). I assumed that, as this was part a Preston/Barrow/Windermere cycle, it would be a pair of 158s, but it was a 319. As this is a 3-hour round trip all the Prestons should be the same 319. Are all the Preston terminators planned to go through to Barrow in July? If so, this will depend on class 195 deliveries. There will then be a spare 319! While I was at WNW, two 195s came through on driver training.
Back on 9th April I predicted on this thread that this temporary Airport - Preston diagram would be worked by a 319:
From RTT, the short Airport - Preston via Wigan workings from May until July appear to comprise a single diagram. Although these are pathed for a 158, the ECS workings at either end of the diagram suggest that the plan is for it to be worked by a 319. This will presumably stretch Northern's EMU resources to the limit, if all services on the Chorley line are also worked by EMUs.
Nice to be proved right!
 

geoffk

Established Member
Joined
4 Aug 2010
Messages
1,429
Speaking of the Huddersfield to Castleford service, it's a shame that for large parts of the route it's a bit redundant as it follows close behind another service. From Huddersfield to Mirfield it follows 10mins or so behind the Leeds stopper (previously it ran 7-9mins behind) and the return is worse. From Castleford to Wakefield it runs just a few minutes behind the Sheffield stopper and then still, as before, slots behind the Leeds to Huddersfield stopper at Mirfield.

That's several journeys that have 2tph on paper but gaps of 10/50 or even 5/55.
There are more examples like that, e.g. Stockport to Bolton, two an hour (as required in the franchise agreement) but less than ten minutes apart in both directions.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,829
Yes, the temporary short working of 1C50 (Airport d 0522, Preston d 0647) was implemented as a variation to the WTT schedule (UID Y61029). So the service does not show up in the public timetable until July, at the stations south of Preston.
It's not showing in the public timetable because it isn't actually running!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top