Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[js1000]

Stopping diesel services under the lines from Piccadilly to Manchester Airport? Appreciate the 769 delay has screwed that up but crazy stuff. They'd be better off deferring the whole change until December rather than an half-baked attempt at fudging it.

Someone said it looks like they have done this with little time rather than what's best and it would be hard to disagree.

 

[Starmill]

They'd be better off deferring the whole change until December rather than an half-baked attempt at fudging it.

I can't help but wonder if this is right.

There's so much damage to be caused. And the vast majority of people who currently use the trains don't yet know.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I can't help but wonder if this is right.

There's so much damage to be caused. And the vast majority of people who currently use the trains don't yet know.

I think the principle problem with just deferring everything was that other TOCs beside Northern and TPE had made changes, with services by XC, VWC, VTEC, ATW all being re timed or re pathed at various points where there meet with Northern or TPE. Which in turn would likely have caused services operated by TOCs no where Northern TPE land to be altered too.

It was, I suspect, too big a job to re time all their trains too, and there would no doubt be reasons why changes needed to be made elsewhere now, rather than later.

That aside, I am coming to the conclusion looking at some of the finalised timetables that it really is a lash up, and not just for Northern. There are so many other things not ready or being panic rushed in time for this TT that I don't wonder that NR should have just bit the bullet and told every TOC everywhere that things were staying as they were until December.

However I doubt the DfT would approve that option as the fall out would have affected far more people than just those in Northern land and would inevitably landed on their doorstep, being as it was all caused by NR delays anyway.

 

[Bantamzen]

I think the principle problem with just deferring everything was that other TOCs beside Northern and TPE had made changes, with services by XC, VWC, VTEC, ATW all being re timed or re pathed at various points where there meet with Northern or TPE. Which in turn would likely have caused services operated by TOCs no where Northern TPE land to be altered too.

It was, I suspect, too big a job to re time all their trains too, and there would no doubt be reasons why changes needed to be made elsewhere now, rather than later.

That aside, I am coming to the conclusion looking at some of the finalised timetables that it really is a lash up, and not just for Northern. There are so many other things not ready or being panic rushed in time for this TT that I don't wonder that NR should have just bit the bullet and told every TOC everywhere that things were staying as they were until December.

However I doubt the DfT would approve that option as the fall out would have affected far more people than just those in Northern land and would inevitably landed on their doorstep, being as it was all caused by NR delays anyway.

With so many projects, new builds, cascades etc ongoing with some being delayed / deferred, delaying May's changes to December could itself have a knock on effect going forward into future planned changes. Sadly it is what it is, some places may have to take steps back to take steps forward. Its easy with hindsight to say just hold fire, but that in itself will doubtless cause issues going forward. I suspect the next couple of years will see lots of recasts & changes before things can settle, possibly in some areas like Scotland entire timetable changes to fit whatever solution they come up with to fill the rather large 385 gap. And whilst all this goes on, us customers will just have to adapt as we have been adapting ever since privatisation started to kick up so many changes. The camels moan, the train moves on.....

 

[notlob.divad]

With so many projects, new builds, cascades etc ongoing with some being delayed / deferred, delaying May's changes to December could itself have a knock on effect going forward into future planned changes. Sadly it is what it is, some places may have to take steps back to take steps forward. Its easy with hindsight to say just hold fire, but that in itself will doubtless cause issues going forward. I suspect the next couple of years will see lots of recasts & changes before things can settle, possibly in some areas like Scotland entire timetable changes to fit whatever solution they come up with to fill the rather large 385 gap. And whilst all this goes on, us customers will just have to adapt as we have been adapting ever since privatisation started to kick up so many changes. The camels moan, the train moves on.....

I agree with this, Lets remember the plan for the May 2018 recast has already been put back from December 2017. This was build as a massive shakeup not just across the North, but also with other areas of the country. Planners will potentially have been working on this for years anticipating all infrastructure would be completed. They have then had what 6/8 weeks since the further delay to Preston <> Salford wiring was announced to re-write half the work they had done. We should be praising and thanking them, that they have been able to get anything credible and workable out in the time frame that has been available. Yes its not perfect, but it is only temporary hopefully until the wires are complete, then through journeys can be re-instated along with the extra enhancements we are all waiting for.

Now the information is available, I am sure the next task is to push the media side to let people know that changes are coming in. I am sure it will be publicised in the frame that this is an interim solution and further incremental changes will be coming in the future, rather than the initial plan of a Big Bang change.

 

[Bantamzen]

I agree with this, Lets remember the plan for the May 2018 recast has already been put back from December 2017. This was build as a massive shakeup not just across the North, but also with other areas of the country. Planners will potentially have been working on this for years anticipating all infrastructure would be completed. They have then had what 6/8 weeks since the further delay to Preston <> Salford wiring was announced to re-write half the work they had done. We should be praising and thanking them, that they have been able to get anything credible and workable out in the time frame that has been available. Yes its not perfect, but it is only temporary hopefully until the wires are complete, then through journeys can be re-instated along with the extra enhancements we are all waiting for.

Now the information is available, I am sure the next task is to push the media side to let people know that changes are coming in. I am sure it will be publicised in the frame that this is an interim solution and further incremental changes will be coming in the future, rather than the initial plan of a Big Bang change.

Absolutely, and lets not forget that it isn't just about throwing dates & times of services into a database. There will be crew rosters & training to plan out, unit maintenance, planned refurbishments, planned engineering works on top of the pathing planning to do. So when big delays in engineering projects couple with potential delays to cascades from other areas, there is an awful lot to do in a very short space of time. Even if NR did say they wanted to put a halt to May's changes, I'm pretty sure the TOCs would be up in arms and warning of more serious problems as a result. As someone who builds analytical tools to aid in this kind of planning (albeit not in the rail industry I hasten to add!), I understand that complex systems can't be changed on a whim and sometimes can take far longer than is ideal to implement, often needed several tranches to deploy.

Its not ideal for passengers, but as I say with so many unit moves, new unit orders & subsequent testing, the training required for these topped with a number of large scale infrastructure schemes ongoing or planned, there will be some disruption to timescales in delivering improvements & offering new timetables. I imagine that the planners across most TOCs have had many a sleepless night over the last few months!

 

[pemma]

As far as I'm aware the Macclesfield to Manchester line is fully electrified and doesn't require DMU so couldn't the future Blackpools run from Macclesfield to ermm lets say Deansgate, and then when the line beyond Deansgate to Blackpool is fully electrified and ready, the Deansgate terminators can continue at a mid-timetable date rather than waiting until December?

Hence why I also said the planners have gone for the easiest workaround, rather than the one most beneficial for passengers. Greenbank-Bolton-Wigan using Sprinters, DMUs on Manchester-Bolton-Preston with 769s being introduced as they become available and EMU shuttles for Macclesfield and Alderley Edge would have worked better for passengers but would have required more work to implement.

I'm sure residents of Poynton & Bramhall will be thrilled at the news they are going to be stuck for another 7 months without a regular train service to Manchester.

While it's not a good situation I don't think the argument that Poynton & Bramhall don't get regular Manchester services is valid, given they get 1tph and 2tph to Manchester in the morning peak and 2tph from Manchester in the evening peak, that's better than Hale, Knutsford or Northwich currently.

 

[backontrack]

Northern operated service to Huddersfield:

...

18:01 Manchester Piccadilly-Huddersfield, calling at Ardwick, Guide Bridge, Stalybridge, Mossley, Greenfield and Huddersfield

Ardwick Interchange, anyone?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ardwick Interchange, anyone?

I doubt the footbridge would last, it's in a right state.

More seriously, though, when it eventually comes to time to develop the area for housing it'll probably be back. Easiest thing would be to serve it with the Hadfield EMUs.

 

[backontrack]

I doubt the footbridge would last, it's in a right state.

More seriously, though, when it eventually comes to time to develop the area for housing it'll probably be back. Easiest thing would be to serve it with the Hadfield EMUs.

Indeed.

But it's a strange anomaly, however, that there's now a Huddersfield service.

 

[Bwlch y Groes]

Also, will Batley now become a TPE managed station, or will it remain with Northern but with just one Northern train a day calling there (the 0534 to Wigan).

We're keeping all our stations iirc. Nothing's transferring to TPE

Interesting, theres a Crofton to Leeds service arriving at 16.55, described as a Northern 125mph DMU, to complete the loop.

There's an equivalent morning service too, a 6.56 arrival at Hebden Bridge from Crofton, forming the 7.02 to Leeds. This seems to replace the current Halifax to Leeds Class 180. It looks as if it may be joined by a return evening peak class 180 service.

Yes, this is correct. It's been kept pretty quiet but I guess the secret's out now it's in the timetable. I think an extra 180 service is going to go down quite well with the punters

 

[TBY-Paul]

I notice in the new timetable there's a 17.23 Newcastle to Stockton (2N20),
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y21707/2018/06/04/advanced
which then runs ECS from Stockton to Darlington (5N40).
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22035/2018/06/04/advanced
Why doesn't it just run in service to Darlington and add calls at Eaglescliffe, Allens West & Dinsdale. I know it would only be one weekday service linking Stockton to Eaglescliffe, Allens West, Dinsdale & Darlington, but it would be a start.

 

[BigCj34]

Interestingly there is a daily Leeds to Barrow direct service via Preston. Still quicker to change at Carnforth though. I also notice Carlisle to Leeds services are now 8tpd which meets the requirements.

 

[Starmill]

I don't wonder that NR should have just bit the bullet and told every TOC everywhere that things were staying as they were until December.

I ought to have been clearer. This was actually what I meant. I'm aware of the dilemma that changing TransPennine but not Northern represents. The question is whether the benefits of this timetable are worth the 6 months of disruption.

 

[47802]

I ought to have been clearer. This was actually what I meant. I'm aware of the dilemma that changing TransPennine but not Northern represents. The question is whether the benefits of this timetable are worth the 6 months of disruption.

I hope TOC's are ready for barrage of complaints they are going to get over this new timetable!

 

[Bovverboy]

Most services post 20/5 seem to be on RTT now. There are one or two ECS workings still to load, and a lot of the platform numbers are suspect, but it's getting clearer what is going to be working what.
Until proved otherwise I'm inclined to suppose that any EMU which starts or finishes its diagram at Allerton will be a 319, and one which starts or finishes its diagram at Longsight will be a 323.
Therefore of the seven units required to cover the Liverpool to Crewe stopper, I reckon 5-6 will be 319s, and only 1-2 323s. (The timetable permits interworking between the stopper and the Liverpool to Blackpool service, but platform numbers indicate that this is not going to happen).
Two 319s will continue to stable at Manchester Victoria Reversing Siding, overnight Mondays to Saturdays, and all day Sundays. Both commence with a stopper from Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street but, separately, then go on to Blackpools or Warringtons. At close of service they come from Liverpool (as a stopper) and from Wilmslow (in service, via the Ordsall Chord). One also stables at Vic between peaks, between doing peak-hour stoppers from/to Liverpool.
EMUs will stable at Blackpool North CMD for the first time, six units I calculate, probably all 319s. Three go on to Blackpool - Airport (the fourth unit provided by Stockport CMD), two will go on Liverpools (the third unit provided by Manchester Victoria), and the sixth unit will cover the Blackpool to Preston shuttles. (DMUs are going to continue to stable at Blackpool CMD too, at least for the time being).
So if I'm completely correct (which is unlikely) the Monday to Saturday turnout of 319s should be something like this.
5-6 Liverpool to Crewe stoppers
4 Blackpool to Manchester Airport
4 Liverpool to Wigan
3 Blackpool to Liverpool
2 Liverpool to Warrington Bank Quay
1 Blackpool to Preston
1 Liverpool to Manchester Victoria (peak only)
Total daily turnout 20-21, which is slightly higher than at present, but there are sufficient units available to cover.

 

[50032]

Most services post 20/5 seem to be on RTT now. There are one or two ECS workings still to load, and a lot of the platform numbers are suspect, but it's getting clearer what is going to be working what.
Until proved otherwise I'm inclined to suppose that any EMU which starts or finishes its diagram at Allerton will be a 319, and one which starts or finishes its diagram at Longsight will be a 323.
Therefore of the seven units required to cover the Liverpool to Crewe stopper, I reckon 5-6 will be 319s, and only 1-2 323s. (The timetable permits interworking between the stopper and the Liverpool to Blackpool service, but platform numbers indicate that this is not going to happen).
Two 319s will continue to stable at Manchester Victoria Reversing Siding, overnight Mondays to Saturdays, and all day Sundays. Both commence with a stopper from Victoria to Liverpool Lime Street but, separately, then go on to Blackpools or Warringtons. At close of service they come from Liverpool (as a stopper) and from Wilmslow (in service, via the Ordsall Chord). One also stables at Vic between peaks, between doing peak-hour stoppers from/to Liverpool.
EMUs will stable at Blackpool North CMD for the first time, six units I calculate, probably all 319s. Three go on to Blackpool - Airport (the fourth unit provided by Stockport CMD), two will go on Liverpools (the third unit provided by Manchester Victoria), and the sixth unit will cover the Blackpool to Preston shuttles. (DMUs are going to continue to stable at Blackpool CMD too, at least for the time being).
So if I'm completely correct (which is unlikely) the Monday to Saturday turnout of 319s should be something like this.
5-6 Liverpool to Crewe stoppers
4 Blackpool to Manchester Airport
4 Liverpool to Wigan
3 Blackpool to Liverpool
2 Liverpool to Warrington Bank Quay
1 Blackpool to Preston
1 Liverpool to Manchester Victoria (peak only)
Total daily turnout 20-21, which is slightly higher than at present, but there are sufficient units available to cover.

I don't know how this affects your calculations, but the units on the Crewe line are supposed to do the following circuit:
LIV-MAN-MIA-CRE-SPT-MAN-HAZ-MAN-SPT-CRE-MIA-MAN-LIV.
Whether they do anything else upon arrival at Lime St (or just sit idle for almost an hour) remains an unknown. The above could also go by the wayside if crew training is not completed in time.

Mode Note: Liverpool Lime Street, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Airport, Crewe, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly, Hazel Grove, Manchester Piccadilly, Stockport, Crewe, Manchester Airport, Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[Andyh82]

I can see Leeds to Blackpool services now only running to Preston being something that the press picks up on and customers complain about. It was always said that they were not running to Blackpool only during the engineering works during the winter, not across the main summer season.

 

[pemma]

I can see Leeds to Blackpool services now only running to Preston being something that the press picks up on and customers complain about. It was always said that they were not running to Blackpool only during the engineering works during the winter, not across the main summer season.

And if they ask anyone at Northern for a statement expect one telling them the route will again run from York to Blackpool in 2019 as well saying about the new trains the route will get as part of Northern Connect.

 

[Peter749]

I don't know how this affects your calculations, but the units on the Crewe line are supposed to do the following circuit:
LIV-MAN-MIA-CRE-SPT-MAN-HAZ-MAN-SPT-CRE-MIA-MAN-LIV.
Whether they do anything else upon arrival at Lime St (or just sit idle for almost an hour) remains an unknown. The above could also go by the wayside if crew training is not completed in time.

In Real Time Trains the inbound CRE-MAN-LIV arrives at xx28 P4 and departs at xx28 from P4 back to CRE

Peter

 

[Bovverboy]

I don't know how this affects your calculations, but the units on the Crewe line are supposed to do the following circuit:
LIV-MAN-MIA-CRE-SPT-MAN-HAZ-MAN-SPT-CRE-MIA-MAN-LIV.
Whether they do anything else upon arrival at Lime St (or just sit idle for almost an hour) remains an unknown. The above could also go by the wayside if crew training is not completed in time.

I didn't know about the Hazel Grove involvement. The platform numbers at Piccadilly indicate that what you're saying is correct, but I had been inclined to ignore platform numbers at this stage since I was aware that they weren't all correct. It's certainly not obvious why Hazel Groves are being brought into the circuit, since doing so doesn't save a unit, and the ex-Hazel and ex-Crewe services arrive at Picc at much the same time anyway.
As to the hour dwell at Lime Street, I had assumed that it wasn't going to be, and that the units were going to do a (very) quick turnaround.
So that makes it ten units on a ten-hour cycle.

 

[pemma]

I don't know how this affects your calculations, but the units on the Crewe line are supposed to do the following circuit:
LIV-MAN-MIA-CRE-SPT-MAN-HAZ-MAN-SPT-CRE-MIA-MAN-LIV.
Whether they do anything else upon arrival at Lime St (or just sit idle for almost an hour) remains an unknown. The above could also go by the wayside if crew training is not completed in time.

Also worth remembering 2 units are required for the peak time extras between Crewe and Piccadilly via Stockport. All Crewe services are shown as being timed for 319s but how many are operated by 319s is a different question.

 

[pemma]

In Real Time Trains the inbound CRE-MAN-LIV arrives at xx28 P4 and departs at xx28 from P4 back to CRE

Peter

I've noticed that as well. However, in the evening peak it appears unit from the 17:31 arrival from Crewe gets blocked in by the unit off the Wigan service and then after that unit goes back to Wigan it forms the 18:17 to Manchester Victoria, which will affect the number of EMUs needing to be in service at peak times even if the plan for off-peak services is to do an under 1 minute turnaround at Lime Street, which I'd be surprised if Network Rail agreed to.

 

[geoffk]

Interesting, theres a Crofton to Leeds service arriving at 16.55, described as a Northern 125mph DMU, to complete the loop.

There's an equivalent morning service too, a 6.56 arrival at Hebden Bridge from Crofton, forming the 7.02 to Leeds. This seems to replace the current Halifax to Leeds Class 180. It looks as if it may be joined by a return evening peak class 180 service.

The Grand Central unit, which works in service to Leeds at 07.28, is missing from the new timetable, yet the ecs from Crofton is shown terminating at Halifax at 07.20! Despite the addition of the 07.02 from Hebden Bridge there appears to be one train less from Halifax to Leeds in the morning peak.

 

[50032]

As to the hour dwell at Lime Street, I had assumed that it wasn't going to be, and that the units were going to do a (very) quick turnaround.

A unit needs 3 to 4 minutes turn around time, if not the unions would go mad!

 

[Smidster]

Times now seem to be live in the journey planner on the Northern site.

Have to say I am not happy at all - it seems that pretty much every journey is going to take even longer (though I am not sure how they are going to manage that on some routes without doubling back mid journey) and I am losing lots of connections with both rail and other public transport methods. As an example of the latter it now becomes impossible for me to work or attend events in Manchester due to the lack of connectivity over the pennines

I know that a few extra minutes might not seem like much but it is another 2 full days (10 mins per day) each year on an overcrowded, overpriced train - can't wait!

Just for once it would be nice to have something get better.

 

[lejog]

The Grand Central unit, which works in service to Leeds at 07.28, is missing from the new timetable, yet the ecs from Crofton is shown terminating at Halifax at 07.20!

I suggest that the Crofton to Halifax ecs, being entered in the database as a Grand Central service, is just a left over from the previous timetable, not deleted along with Northern services when the timetable plan changed.

 

[northernchris]

I ought to have been clearer. This was actually what I meant. I'm aware of the dilemma that changing TransPennine but not Northern represents. The question is whether the benefits of this timetable are worth the 6 months of disruption.

Yep, there's very little benefits to the new timetables. I'm also doubtful many routes have achievable running times, particularly those which head through Salford Crescent/Manchester Victoria. We're now in a prolonged period of dire PPM from Northern and I fear this new timetable will only make things worse.

 

[js1000]

Yep, there's very little benefits to the new timetables. I'm also doubtful many routes have achievable running times, particularly those which head through Salford Crescent/Manchester Victoria. We're now in a prolonged period of dire PPM from Northern and I fear this new timetable will only make things worse.

Generally concur with this. The Liverpool Lime Street to Alderley Edge via Manchester Airport is fraught with so much risk given as it's passing through numerous bottlenecks. It's a long distance service which is also doubles up as a commuter service in and out of Manchester and Liverpool. Broken down train at Oxford Road or on the Styal Line and the whole thing is screwed.

Biting off more than they chew springs to mind.

The only hope is the December 2018 timetable cannot be any worse. May 2019 even less worse as it'll actually be planned a good 9+ months in advance unlike this timetable.

 

[Whistler40145]

Please could someone advise whether the Blackpool North to Manchester Airport service in the May timetable change via Wigan North Western booked for a 319 is a temporary arrangement until the 331s are in traffic?