Northern timetable plan for May 2018

[northernchris]

The only hope is the December 2018 timetable cannot be any worse. May 2019 even less worse as it'll actually be planned a good 9+ months in advance unlike this timetable.

There is that! Let's hope by December we're back to at least pre-December 2017 capacity levels

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Please could someone advise whether the Blackpool North to Manchester Airport service in the May timetable change via Wigan North Western booked for a 319 is a temporary arrangement until the 331s are in traffic?

The expectation is that the Northern Airport-Blackpool will revert to the Bolton route when it is wired, but instead the Airport-Cumbria (Barrow/Windermere) service will run via Wigan NW.
Eventually the Blackpool will go 331 and the Cumbria 195.
But it is likely to take a while for the final pattern to emerge.

 

[Whistler40145]

Thanks for the information

 

[darylyates17]

Will the remaining DMU diagrams on the Chat Moss route (1 of the Saturday LIV-WBQs for example) become EMU diagrams from May it seems likely with TPE taking over the fast services on Chat Moss.

 

[splashoutradio]

Ardwick Interchange, anyone?

It looks like Ardwick may even be fixing its sights on attracting the discerning Saturday traveler too.
07:54 New Mills - Piccadilly
16:38 Piccadilly - Rose Hill

 

[pemma]

It looks like Ardwick may even be fixing its sights on attracting the discerning Saturday traveler too.
07:54 New Mills - Piccadilly
16:38 Piccadilly - Rose Hill

I remember TPE doing a weekend open day at their Ardwick depot and advertising it's near Ardwick station but no trains will stop there!

 

[backontrack]

It looks like Ardwick may even be fixing its sights on attracting the discerning Saturday traveler too.
07:54 New Mills - Piccadilly
16:38 Piccadilly - Rose Hill

I genuinely hope that the station picks up a couple of regular passengers now, then. It might have a serious effect on the annual usage tables! Maybe Ardwick can break through the 1000-passengers-per-year barrier...

I remember TPE doing a weekend open day at their Ardwick depot and advertising it's near Ardwick station but no trains will stop there!

Wow! Man, I hope somebody got fired for that blunder.

In all seriousness, perhaps there will be more TPE stops at Ashburys, taking advantage of its situation as the closest rail station to the Etihad Stadium, where Manchester City play?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Can't see it, imagine having to control crowds, some probably worse for wear and looking for trouble, somewhere outside the station, over the footbridge, then onto the narrow island platform, and then separating them into separate flows for direction. Easier to let the specially-designed Metrolink halt (crowd separation atop the platform, security measures, extra TVMs and platforms deeper than the mid-Atlantic) and relatively managable walk back into town deal with the crowds.

Edit - Having now checked, Ardwick is the same distance as Piccadilly, and Ashburys is closer than both!

 

[backontrack]

Can't see it, imagine having to control crowds, some probably worse for wear and looking for trouble, somewhere outside the station, over the footbridge, then onto the narrow island platform, and then separating them into separate flows for direction. Easier to let the specially-designed Metrolink halt (crowd separation atop the platform, security measures, extra TVMs and platforms deeper than the mid-Atlantic) and relatively managable walk back into town deal with the crowds.

Edit - Having now checked, Ardwick is the same distance as Piccadilly, and Ashburys is closer than both!

If you re-read the last sentence of my previous post, you'll see that I was asking about Ashburys, not Ardwick

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If you re-read the last sentence of my previous post, you'll see that I was asking about Ashburys, not Ardwick

Fair play, but again some of the same problems exist: the need for space to coral people, safely keep them on the platform, and that's before you even get to shoehorning the additional time into TPE servcies, especially as we are now heading towards wedging even more trains over various stretches between Manchester and Leeds etc. It would also only be quicker for those heading east: unless they are playing teams from out that way I can't imagine enough City fans come from TPE country to justify it.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Can't see it, imagine having to control crowds, some probably worse for wear and looking for trouble, somewhere outside the station, over the footbridge, then onto the narrow island platform, and then separating them into separate flows for direction. Easier to let the specially-designed Metrolink halt (crowd separation atop the platform, security measures, extra TVMs and platforms deeper than the mid-Atlantic) and relatively managable walk back into town deal with the crowds.

Edit - Having now checked, Ardwick is the same distance as Piccadilly, and Ashburys is closer than both!

There was an idea to reopen Park station on the Huddersfield line in 2000 as that former station was said to be closest. The platforms are still there and I remember seeing rail workers getting rid of the weeds [more like small trees] from the platforms, This was before the Metro- Then it all went quiet and I haven't heard anything since. Which is a shame as the area around the former station is packed with parked cars on match days.

 

[Bovverboy]

Will the remaining DMU diagrams on the Chat Moss route (1 of the Saturday LIV-WBQs for example) become EMU diagrams from May it seems likely with TPE taking over the fast services on Chat Moss.

On the new timetable the number of peak (extra) journeys between Lime Street and Victoria reduce from six to two (SuX). The six are all currently DMU-operated on Saturdays, but the two which are going to remain are definitely going to be EMU-operated. Similarly it looks as though all Sunday journeys on Chat Moss stoppers are going to be EMUs, too. (Three DMU-operated at the moment).
As things stand I can't see any evidence of any LIV - WBQ (terminating) journeys being diesel-operated, although, as I've said before, it looks as though one or two ECS workings have still to be loaded. One journey which will be on a diesel diagram, however, is 2F20, 0510 Lime Street to Ellesmere Port, calling Edge Hill, Huyton, St Helens Junction, then all stations to Ellesmere Port.

 

[Bovverboy]

What look to be crew-training trips are coming up on the new schedules, although that doesn't mean they'll see the light pf day, of course. They're all SSuX.
5Z11 0614 Allerton Depot - Warrington Bank Quay arr 0710 timed for 319
5Z02 0758 Carnforth - Warrington Bank Quay arr 0853 timed for DMU
5Z03 0957 Warrington Bank Quay - Carnforth arr 1101 timed for 350
5Z05 1242 Warrington Bank Quay - Carnforth arr 1341 timed for 350
5Z06 1356 Carnforth - Warrington Bank Quay arr 1513 timed for DMU
5Z07 1536 Warrington Bank Quay - Allerton Depot arr 1634 timed for 319
5Z02 2005 Carnforth - Warrington Bank Quay arr 2105 timed for DMU
5Z05 2341 Warrington Bank Quay - Carnforth arr 0046 timed for 350
5Z06 0051 Carnforth - Warrington Bank Quay arr 0134 timed for 319
5Z07 0140 Warrington Bank Quay - Allerton Depot arr 0234 timed for 319
Clearly, there are a few intended journeys missing. Journeys to/from Allerton Depot are all scheduled to reverse at Lime Street.

A strange journey is 5F41 (SuX), 1819 Preston - Warrington Bank Quay arr 1847 (319).
This would appear to be the return working of 2N99 Liverpool Lime Street - Preston, arr 1814. There's no sign of anything happening to it after 1847 so the implication is that it couples to 2F35, 1911 Warrington Bank Quay - Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[50032]

What look to be crew-training trips are coming up on the new schedules, although that doesn't mean they'll see the light pf day, of course. They're all SSuX.
5Z11 0614 Allerton Depot - Warrington Bank Quay arr 0710 timed for 319
5Z02 0758 Carnforth - Warrington Bank Quay arr 0853 timed for DMU
5Z03 0957 Warrington Bank Quay - Carnforth arr 1101 timed for 350
5Z05 1242 Warrington Bank Quay - Carnforth arr 1341 timed for 350
5Z06 1356 Carnforth - Warrington Bank Quay arr 1513 timed for DMU
5Z07 1536 Warrington Bank Quay - Allerton Depot arr 1634 timed for 319
5Z02 2005 Carnforth - Warrington Bank Quay arr 2105 timed for DMU
5Z05 2341 Warrington Bank Quay - Carnforth arr 0046 timed for 350
5Z06 0051 Carnforth - Warrington Bank Quay arr 0134 timed for 319
5Z07 0140 Warrington Bank Quay - Allerton Depot arr 0234 timed for 319
Clearly, there are a few intended journeys missing. Journeys to/from Allerton Depot are all scheduled to reverse at Lime Street.

These paths will be for testing 195s and 331s in due course.

 

[berneyarms]

A unit needs 3 to 4 minutes turn around time, if not the unions would go mad!

That has less to do with the unions, and far more to do with building resilience into the timetable so that it can be delivered effectively and reliably.

 

[pemma]

That has less to do with the unions, and far more to do with building resilience into the timetable so that it can be delivered effectively and reliably.

The Wakefield Westgate to Huddersfield has 4 minutes for the driver to change end (in the working timetable, 3 in the public timetable) and given that's just 2 minutes after it's left it's origin station I don't think they need to add in much resilience!

 

[berneyarms]

The Wakefield Westgate to Huddersfield has 4 minutes for the driver to change end (in the working timetable, 3 in the public timetable) and given that's just 2 minutes after it's left it's origin station I don't think they need to add in much resilience!

That's not really comparable though to the turnaround at a terminal station after a reasonably long journey which was the context of my comment.
The post to which I replied seemed to be suggesting a turn around time of less than 4 minutes would be practical in such a situation.

As for the times, well the working timetable is the only one that is relevant from an operational perspective.

 

[geoffk]

Please could someone advise whether the Blackpool North to Manchester Airport service in the May timetable change via Wigan North Western booked for a 319 is a temporary arrangement until the 331s are in traffic?

I assume this service will have a 331 (and it will revert to going via Bolton).

Another oddity in the new timetable is the spacing of trains northbound from Leyland - departures (all to Blackpool North) are at 16, 19 and 30 mins past the hour, give or take the odd minute.

 

[pemma]

That's not really comparable though to the turnaround at a terminal station after a reasonably long journey which was the context of my comment.
The post to which I replied seemed to be suggesting a turn around time of less than 4 minutes would be practical in such a situation.

As for the times, well the working timetable is the only one that is relevant from an operational perspective.

I certainly don't think a unit working Crewe-Airport-Piccadilly-Liverpool stoppers should be leaving Lime St on a return working a minute or two after arriving on the outbound working. However, the Wakefield to Huddersfield example does highlight that very generous times are given for crews to change ends, even when there's no need to allow time to potentially recover late running.

 

[50032]

That has less to do with the unions, and far more to do with building resilience into the timetable so that it can be delivered effectively and reliably.

Trust me, if the TOCs thought they could get away with turning a train round in less than 4 minutes, they would try...

 

[IanXC]

The Grand Central unit, which works in service to Leeds at 07.28, is missing from the new timetable, yet the ecs from Crofton is shown terminating at Halifax at 07.20! Despite the addition of the 07.02 from Hebden Bridge there appears to be one train less from Halifax to Leeds in the morning peak.

See:

5T99 0600 Crofton Depot to Hebden Bridge
1S98 0702 Hebden Bridge to Leeds
5T99 0902 Leeds to Crofton Depot

5T98 1611 Crofton Depot to Leeds
1S99 1725 Leeds to Hebden Bridge
5T98 1826 Hebden Bridge to Crofton Depot

 

[Toby Atkinson]

Are the northern PDFs not supposed to be on the website already?

 

[Mathew S]

Are the northern PDFs not supposed to be on the website already?

I doubt we'll see those for a few weeks yet, two weeks before the change rings a bell, so in 4 weeks from now but I could be wrong. And, if I remember correctly, the actual printed timetables won't be with us until two weeks after the changes happen.

 

[Toby Atkinson]

I doubt we'll see those for a few weeks yet, two weeks before the change rings a bell, so in 4 weeks from now but I could be wrong. And, if I remember correctly, the actual printed timetables won't be with us until two weeks after the changes happen.

My local station green road says they will be out on 7th April. Big poster up next to the current timetable

 

[Mathew S]

My local station green road says they will be out on 7th April. Big poster up next to the current timetable

The 7th April date refers to the timetables being confirmed and in journey planners, not the pdf downloads or printed versions being available. I'm sure they will be out as soon as is possible, but it takes time, and I imagine that most people no longer use pdf/printed timetables so I doubt it's a top priority.

 

[Toby Atkinson]

The 7th April date refers to the timetables being confirmed and in journey planners, not the pdf downloads or printed versions being available. I'm sure they will be out as soon as is possible, but it takes time, and I imagine that most people no longer use pdf/printed timetables so I doubt it's a top priority.

On the national rail website, anything past 20th May says subject to change. Is that just an automated message and should I take this times as true? The Furness and Cumbrian coast line has a surprising and unbelievable improvement. Especially Sunday’s. What trains will be running Sunday’s? 156?

 

[Mathew S]

On the national rail website, anything past 20th May says subject to change. Is that just an automated message and should I take this times as true? The Furness and Cumbrian coast line has a surprising and unbelievable improvement. Especially Sunday’s. What trains will be running Sunday’s? 156?

In so far as anything is guaranteed, I think you can regard the times on NRE as reliable. Remembering of course that weekend times especially are subject to change due to engineering.

Cumbrian Coast and Furness line specifics aren't really something I know about, but I'm sure someone else on here will be able to give you some more information. I'm aware, however, that there were to be Sunday improvements, so what you say seems plausible.

 

[323235]

Northern said PDF timetables would be available by 7th May on twitter.

 

[northernchris]

From looking at the timetabling I suspect the Leeds - Carlisle / Morecambe are to be interworked which suggests either one route is getting a boost to the traction used or one is to receive inferior stock

 

[Paul Duck]

I notice in the new timetable there's a 17.23 Newcastle to Stockton (2N20),
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y21707/2018/06/04/advanced
which then runs ECS from Stockton to Darlington (5N40).
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22035/2018/06/04/advanced
Why doesn't it just run in service to Darlington and add calls at Eaglescliffe, Allens West & Dinsdale. I know it would only be one weekday service linking Stockton to Eaglescliffe, Allens West, Dinsdale & Darlington, but it would be a start.

You would surely think that logical. The guard would still be on board. Sure there is a logical reason to why.