Virgin’s machines at Piccadilly have done for nearly a year, but I agree that the queue at the ticket office is a right piss take at times
TVMs anywhere do not sell tickets from "third-party" stations. If I'm to queue for the ticket at Piccadilly for 20-30 minutes behind folks who need 4-5 minutes each to decide whether to take the 16:00 or 16:20 train to London, I'll be very nice to the conductor if/when (s)he comes and pay my extra fare to him/her.
I have recieved word from Northern's Customer Experience Centre on the subject of this.
Interesting changes... I was not previously aware of them removing the ticket selling duty from conductors.
Their second sentence does not make much sense to me personally.
And the circumstances were?
Anyone passing the large yellow notices at stations explaining penalty fares has had a warning. So they will get away with paying on train from time to time but as the PF scheme strengthens more people will get caught by revenue protection and the message will get through.If someone didn't buy before boarding when they could have done, but isn't warned, then this implies that the person has done nothing wrong so they could justifiably do so again.
It has been well reported on here and I have seen with my own eyes that these notices, which are required to cover any entrance to a station, are not always in place.
Regardless, if they are in place, then they are still undermined if discounted tickets are sold onboard the train when a PF could have been due, but with no warning. I really don't understand how that's a difficult concept. There is even dedicated ticket stock which makes this clear, and warning notices can be issued on ticket stock, along with tickets, under these circumstances. The entire purpose of Penalty Fares is that there is no need for discretion and mixed messages are not given. Otherwise simply don't have the Penalty Fares. It's that simple.
So for some people on the fact that they haven' seen millions of pf's issued means the whole brand new where is a failure and must end. Well done
And don't forget that Northern guards have the audacity to sell tickets to paying passengers onboard, when the Forum Gurus have explicitly forbidden it even though there will be circumstances where it is entirely appropriate....
And that in itself is not a failure of the system but a personnel issue which northern need to deal with.I've no problem with them selling tickets, but believe they should be warning people that next time they should use the machines and ticket offices where possible (these are often people paying with cards who boarded in the middle of the day at staffed stations). Perhaps some guards are, but some are not.
I've no problem with them selling tickets, but believe they should be warning people that next time they should use the machines and ticket offices where possible (these are often people paying with cards who boarded in the middle of the day at staffed stations). Perhaps some guards are, but some are not.
And that in itself is not a failure of the system but a personnel issue which northern need to deal with.
As bantamzen states there seems to be an uneven balance from some posters about this as they have at times called for discretion to be used!!! Having cake and eating it once again comes to mind
In common with other train companies granted the privilege of being allowed to issue Penalty Fares, Northern is supposed to agree that every time a ticket is sold on board in circumstances where a Penalty Fare could have been issued it will issue a printed warning to the passenger concerned and draw their attention to it. No exceptions! If anyone has convincing evidence this might not be happening, they should consider reporting it to Northern to help them eliminate this problem - otherwise passengers might not get into the habit of buying before boarding and the company might lose appeals against Penalty Fares on these grounds.
• To be spoken to politely and clearly
• To feel confident that they will be given an opportunity to provide an explanation
• To not feel victimized by Collectors
• To have the Penalty Fare process explained to them and to have their questions answered
• The right to a receipt if they pay the Penalty
A person who has been trained and employed to issue and collect Penalty Fares on behalf of a train company or station Operator.
SECTION B
1. People Who May Be Charged a Penalty Fare
1.1 On a train
Any person travelling on the rail network must purchase and hold a valid ticket or authority to travel1, when they have the opportunity to do so, before starting their journey. If a customer cannot produce a valid ticket or authority to travel when asked by an Authorised Collector, or evidence to show the ability to purchase a ticket or authority to travel, they may be liable for a Penalty Fare.
Where available, a Permit to Travel or Promise to Pay can be produced if there was no facility to purchase a ticket from the station before you began your journey. If travelling with a discounted ticket, customers must also be able to present any supporting documentation (such as Railcards or other discount or concessionary pass) that validates their discounted ticket.
1.2 At a station
Any person who is present in a compulsory ticket area3 must be able to produce a valid ticket if they intend to travel, or other authority to be there if not, if asked by a Collector or other person on behalf of an Operator. Being unable to produce a relevant ticket or authority may make you liable for a Penalty Fare. See Exemptions in Chapter 5 for more details.
Airedale: The passengers buying on board do not have PtP vouchers, the guards do not ask for them and don't mention the PF system or say that the passenger should have bought before boarding, and in some cases the passengers pay with a card.
Basically, the system is being ignored on board the trains.
I should also add that at Skipton in the morning someone is stood with a ticket machine to sell to the arriving passengers (including lots of school kids) who have not bought before boarding or on the train. Now some may want to assume that all of those queueing up to buy a ticket have a PtP and are paying cash, but I doubt it.
School kids are unlikely to have cards that the machines will accept. So selling them tickets (assuming they do indeed pay cash/ask for seasons) seems fair enough-unless they have travelled from a staffed station.Airedale: The passengers buying on board do not have PtP vouchers, the guards do not ask for them and don't mention the PF system or say that the passenger should have bought before boarding, and in some cases the passengers pay with a card.
Basically, the system is being ignored on board the trains.
I should also add that at Skipton in the morning someone is stood with a ticket machine to sell to the arriving passengers (including lots of school kids) who have not bought before boarding or on the train. Now some may want to assume that all of those queueing up to buy a ticket have a PtP and are paying cash, but I doubt it.
https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/985956294476607488The Penalty Fares scheme has not come into force yet
I've no problem with them selling tickets, but believe they should be warning people that next time they should use the machines and ticket offices where possible (these are often people paying with cards who boarded in the middle of the day at staffed stations). Perhaps some guards are, but some are not.
Northern state on twitter that:
https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/985956294476607488
Which is... interesting.
Northern state on twitter that:
https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/985956294476607488
Which is... interesting.
Thank you for coming and clarifying. It's appreciatedSo this is on me. I assumed from "you've put Penalty Fare notices up" that he was referring to a line where the trial hasn't started yet. Of course, he could have been referring to Airedale and Wharfedale, so I should have made that clearer
So this is on me. I assumed from "you've put Penalty Fare notices up" that he was referring to a line where the trial hasn't started yet. Of course, he could have been referring to Airedale and Wharfedale, so I should have made that clearer
Incidentally, we recently got a complaint about the sort of Penalty Fare case that may cause a few issues. A customer boarded at Ben Rhydding, where the TVM was out of service, to travel to Skipton. The conductor didn't appear, so on changing at Shipley, they alighted to head to the ticket office, only to be stopped by a member of the loss prevention team and handed a Penalty Fare for not having a ticket having boarded at a station with ticket-buying facilities, even though those facilities were out of order
Now that is clearly an error on the member of staff on the revenue block. I realise you can't comment on individual cases, and I expect that this complaint would be upheld, but would there be a channel from complaint teams back to these revenue staff to ensure that these things don't happen over and over again?
In this situation I advised contacting the CEC to submit a complaint - I imagine this would then be fed back to the loss prevention team. I think the issue is about getting the information about which TVMs are active and which aren't back to the LPOs - because otherwise, that's basically expecting customers to photograph TVMs every time they try to buy from them if they are out of order, so that they have evidence to present there and then
Under the rules under which Northern would have applied for their scheme, they would have had to satisfy the DfT that they had a suitable process in place to notify Authorised Collectors when machines were out of order so that they wouldn't issue any incorrect Penalty Fares. If this wasn't happening, people could report it to the DfT which had the power to suspend the scheme (in part or in full) until it got sorted out. But under the new rules (unless I've missed something?) Northern is no longer required to notify Authorised Collectors in these situations and the DfT has given up the power to suspend the issuing of Penalty Fares and instead everyone must use the appeals process. (An appeal should be granted automatically unless Northern can provide evidence that the machine was in fact working.)
As a developer, I would say this information should not be hard to come by. I imagine that the status of each TVM is logged, so when one goes off-line, runs out of tickets or develops a fault it can alert the relevant support team. So in turn, and in theory this information could be transmitted to a simple app that crews, revenue officers etc could have access to. Of course all this takes money & time, and might be something they are reluctant to do, but if large numbers of complaints were to emerge as a result then it is something they would have to consider. In the meantime however logs will be available to show when & where there are TVM fails, so any complaints or appeals ought to be able to be checked against them.