Northern Unit Refurbishments

[47802]

When the FNW sets were refurbished they were used on most Buxton to Blackpool services and also sometimes Manchester to Llandudno/Holyhead yet 3+2 seating was retained.

I'm not sure I really see the relevance of that now there are always probably going to be some longish journeys where you end up with 3+2.

If Northern 150's were intended to work some of the routes that will be taken over by Northern Connect trains, then I would agree a better refurbishment with 2+2 seating and tables would be required, but as they are not then the level of refurb and choice to retain 3+2 is probably largely adequate for the services they are intended for.

 

[Jamesrob637]

According to RTT service departed Stockport 19 minutes late, missed out Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme and terminated short at Piccadilly due to a train fault.



September 2017 was supposed to be when the first GWR 150s arrived but it's been reported they have been delayed by 9 months.



The next recast (which should have happened this December but will probably now happen in May 2018) will see 4tph to Hazel Grove (2 continuing beyond Hazel Grove) and 2 (Northern) tph to Macclesfield (1 continuing to Stoke) so I would hope the recast sees the end of DMUs stopping at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme with there being plenty of longer EMUs with faster acceleration which can stop at those stations.

I very much doubt services will be strengthened just in case the lights fail in one carriage! Northern have some 2 car Sprinter services so full that if a Pacer fills in they leave passengers behind for an hour on the platform - so passengers waiting an extra 15 minutes at Heaton Chapel on one day won't exactly be seen as a problem in comparison.

That sounds good; longer EMUs. I can live with that. Just a question now of whether they can achieve Dec 17!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Something similar to the style of GWR or ATW wouldn't go amiss.

This is what Northern should aim for and exceed it, which with 150275 they haven't. Just a light refresh on the inside looks cheap and nasty, the seats should have been replaced rather than being retained with new trim.

I do think that people will notice the difference internally between the Northern and GWR referbs once the GWR 150's are up north.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure I really see the relevance of that now there are always probably going to be some longish journeys where you end up with 3+2.

The full Wessex class 150 refurbishments were done around the same time as the FNW ones. They've even got the same seats but the FNW ones had 3+2 seating squeezed in whereas the Wessex ones got more spaced out with armrests and tables. So your argument that the ones refurbished by Wessex got 2+2 seating because of the long distance runs wouldn't have made sense as both operators used them on long and short distance runs at the time. The only difference was FNW served larger settlements so maybe couldn't afford to reduce the number of seats to the level Wessex could.
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I do think that people will notice the difference internally between the Northern and GWR referbs once the GWR 150's are up north.

Only the ex-LM ones at GWR are transferring - which still have their original seats. GWR are keeping the refurbished ones!

 

[TEW]

It's not those GWR 150s that are transferring North. It's the ex-London Midland and ex-London Overground units which still retain 3+2 Ashbourne seating, so will look much the same as a lot of the other Northern 150s.

 

[J-2739]

My eyes disappeared into my head after seeing that. It does make me wonder, since Arriva did so much better on the Welsh side of things. Hoping the GWR units come to the Penistone Line instead of these!

Also, someone said about the 3 car 195s coming over to the Penistone Line. Is this true? Could be rather long for the platforms at Dodworth!

Edit: so GWR are keeping their 150s. How unfair!

 

[D365]

Edit: so GWR are keeping their 150s. How unfair!

Plans have had to change since the delay to electrification. I'm thinking it's quite likely that Northern will take on the spare Class 185s.

 

[TH172341]

So 150275 has been out of service for that period of time and it comes back like that....wow...Externally looks alright, although don't like the yellow surround headlight fittings. Internally it looks like a Centro 150; cheap and basic looking. I seriously hope the fully refurbished units are a great deal better.

 

[47802]

My eyes disappeared into my head after seeing that. It does make me wonder, since Arriva did so much better on the Welsh and Great Western sides of things. Hoping the GWR units come to the Penistone Line instead of these!

Also, someone said about the 3 car 195s coming over to the Penistone Line. Is this true? Could be rather long for the platforms at Dodworth!

Edit: so GWR are keeping their 150s. How unfair!

Unlikely as its not a Northern Connect route, the idea of 195's going to Penistone route was something that was suggested in the medium term, and highly unlikely during the period of this franchise.

GWR are keeping some of their 150's mainly the ones refurbished as in the photo
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The full Wessex class 150 refurbishments were done around the same time as the FNW ones. They've even got the same seats but the FNW ones had 3+2 seating squeezed in whereas the Wessex ones got more spaced out with armrests and tables. So your argument that the ones refurbished by Wessex got 2+2 seating because of the long distance runs wouldn't have made sense as both operators used them on long and short distance runs at the time. The only difference was FNW served larger settlements so maybe couldn't afford to reduce the number of seats to the level Wessex could.
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Yes I take your point however we talking about Northern going forward. We have seen comments about the Northern MD looking to make a business case to put new seats in 158's, so the chances of the rest of fleet getting new seats I suspect is about zero, and I would say the above refurbished 150 working say Leeds - Castleford - Sheffield stopper is perfectly adequate and generally better than a Pacer.

My potential bigger compliant with regard to Northern will be the standard of cleaning and maintenance of the trains after refurbishment.

Perhaps we should also remember the new more disabled friendly toilet takes up quite a few seats in a 150 so retaining 3+2 seating will be some compensation for that.

 

[387star]

And an interior pic from the Railcam facebook page:

A tad underwhelming really, it would've been nice if they'd gone down to a 2+2 arrangement, but at least it looks better for a repaint.

Ouch

I feel sorry for you Northerners!

 

[Parallel]

I do think that people will notice the difference internally between the Northern and GWR referbs once the GWR 150's are up north.

One thing I was surprised with when I last used Northern, some 150/1s had a disabled user friendly toilet, complete with electric door. Are all 150/1 units Northern operate like this? Didn't look especially new, either!

Most of the 150/1s GWR operate are very tired/in a bit of a state now. Really in need of some TLC but I doubt anything will happen with their last couple of years with GWR. Some have 'interesting' flooring.. a mismatch of cream, green, early blue FGW and old silverlink flooring. If you're lucky you can get three different types of flooring in the same carriage where repairs have taken place over the years.

 

[rg177]

One thing I was surprised with when I last used Northern, some 150/1s had a disabled user friendly toilet, complete with electric door. Are all 150/1 units Northern operate like this? Didn't look especially new, either!

Most of the 150/1s GWR operate are very tired/in a bit of a state now. Really in need of some TLC but I doubt anything will happen with their last couple of years with GWR. Some have 'interesting' flooring.. a mismatch of cream, green, early blue FGW and old silverlink flooring. If you're lucky you can get three different types of flooring in the same carriage where repairs have taken place over the years.

Those will be the ex First North Western examples, I don't believe the toilets on those to be DDA compliant however.

Other Northern 150s are practically untouched from how they were originally.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

One thing I was surprised with when I last used Northern, some 150/1s had a disabled user friendly toilet, complete with electric door. Are all 150/1 units Northern operate like this? Didn't look especially new, either!

The Northern 150/1's have had the same toilet layout ever since they came invading into the eastern side. You would have thought that Northern would have referbished these ones first as there wouldn't be much to do apart from retrofit the bog and replace the seat covers.

 

[Starmill]

I'm sorry but what the heck do you expect? The 150's are many meant for shorter distance commuter and stopping services, with 195's and 158's taking over the longer distance/Connect services so looks perfectly reasonable to me, Air-Con was never on the agenda for 150's, and lino makes much more sense for stopping services, as for 3+2 versus 2+2 that's more debatable of more seats verses more standing, but obviously its likely to be cheaper to leave the 3+2.

I expected transformational change, as that is what Alex Hynes likes to talk about. Others have explained why this is not that and how it could easily have been, so the rest of your post has been debunked. The only remaining thing to say is that those who say there will be a 'second stage' to this refurbishment, there hasn't been any other refurbishment ever that has proceeded in quite the way this one is. So let's hope you're right.

 

[387star]

This is what Northern should aim for and exceed it, which with 150275 they haven't. Just a light refresh on the inside looks cheap and nasty, the seats should have been replaced rather than being retained with new trim.

I do think that people will notice the difference internally between the Northern and GWR referbs once the GWR 150's are up north.

That GWR refurbishment does look impressive. These /2s have enjoyed several refurbishments since their major wessex trains seat refit although new lighting didn't come till the fgw refurbishment.

I used to work those trains when I was a guard and the /2s were always pretty good interior wise (aside no space for luggage) however I thought the pink colour scheme gave them a cheap look... The GWR interior as shown on that picture looks quite stylish. I think the floor was also a poorer quality before with bubbles appearing and hazard tape here and there. The new flooring seems a much better quality


GWR 150/1s leave a lot to be desired however it is worth noting the /0s have been treated to a very similar job to this Northern 150... Perhaps they do not think it worth replacing seats for units that surely only have so many more years life left in them!

Shows what can be done though
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One thing I was surprised with when I last used Northern, some 150/1s had a disabled user friendly toilet, complete with electric door. Are all 150/1 units Northern operate like this? Didn't look especially new, either!

Most of the 150/1s GWR operate are very tired/in a bit of a state now. Really in need of some TLC but I doubt anything will happen with their last couple of years with GWR. Some have 'interesting' flooring.. a mismatch of cream, green, early blue FGW and old silverlink flooring. If you're lucky you can get three different types of flooring in the same carriage where repairs have taken place over the years.

Yeah at least one unit has/had green flooring with part first group pink and blue flooring whilst another has a section in the green with a crazy green and yellow pattern going on!

The 150/9s did have part silverlink/ part centro interiors but seem to have been reformed so are ex centro interior throughout now

The wall carpets on the ex silverlink units were an interesting feature

I do believe a few /1s have had new flooring mor recently

The old first group colours were pretty hidious though and cheapened the look of many a train

 

[casualobserver]

deleted

 

[Adam0984]

Something odd in my mind about the decision to work on the 150/2's as the first 150's to be refurbished/refreshed is that the ultimate plan under 'new' northern is for 150/2's to be split, one car being placed into the centre of two 150/1 vehicles creating a 3 car 150 so either the /2 car will need re-liverying again within the relative short term, or the new formation is going to look incoherent with the middle car carrying an inappropriate blue end.

When that time comes they'll just peel the stickers off and put some different ones on.

With regards to the refurbishment it will have a stage 2 as it needs wifi putting on quite what else they're gonna do with it I'm not sure. Hopefully now Kilmarnock know what they're working with the next couple will be quicker to do then the rest even quicker. Although the interior and exterior look a little underwhelming I guess it's the unseen work that took the most time like corrosion work and fitting the toilet etc

 

[northwichcat]

Something odd in my mind about the decision to work on the 150/2's as the first 150's to be refurbished/refreshed is that the ultimate plan under 'new' northern is for 150/2's to be split, one car being placed into the centre of two 150/1 vehicles creating a 3 car 150 so either the /2 car will need re-liverying again within the relative short term, or the new formation is going to look incoherent with the middle car carrying an inappropriate blue end.

Not all the 150s will be reformed in to 3 car.

 

[TEW]

When that time comes they'll just peel the stickers off and put some different ones on.

With regards to the refurbishment it will have a stage 2 as it needs wifi putting on quite what else they're gonna do with it I'm not sure. Hopefully now Kilmarnock know what they're working with the next couple will be quicker to do then the rest even quicker. Although the interior and exterior look a little underwhelming I guess it's the unseen work that took the most time like corrosion work and fitting the toilet etc

Fitting Wi-Fi alone would be unlikely to need a trip to Kilmarnock. Plenty of fleets elsewhere in the country have had Wi-Fi fitted over the last couple of years, and it tends to be done at one of the TOCs own depot. I certainly wouldn't describe Wi-Fi fitment as stage 2 of a refurbishment!

 

[sprinterguy]

I have to say that the Northern refurbishment programme continues to seriously disappoint. For stock that's supposed to continue in passenger service well into the 2020s, overlaying the DDA compliant features on top of otherwise "as new" mid eighties condition seems insufficient. You only need to look at the interior of a South West Trains class 455 or, as mentioned above, ATW/FGW class 150/2, to see the quality of refurbishment that is possible within the 20 metre mark 3 bodyshell; the former with particular relevance to high density commuter working.

The local train fleet across the North of England has been united under the Northern banner for over a decade now, it is astonishing that the opportunity continues to be missed to undertake a high quality refurbishment to create a homogenous look within each train class.

Looks like they've installed a much too big Northern logo. That and the other clutter on the side makes this one look particularly bad.

None of the logos or insignia seem to have been positioned with any regard to each other or to the superstructure of the train. I'm not sure what benefit displaying the logo in four different colours and sizes bestows, either, it just makes the bodyside look incredibly cluttered. Quite an achievement on such a bland basic livery.

 

[DarloRich]

I have to say that the Northern refurbishment programme continues to seriously disappoint. For stock that's supposed to continue in passenger service well into the 2020s, overlaying the DDA compliant features on top of otherwise "as new" mid eighties condition seems insufficient. You only need to look at the interior of a South West Trains class 455 or, as mentioned above, ATW/FGW class 150/2, to see the quality of refurbishment that is possible within the 20 metre mark 3 bodyshell; the former with particular relevance to high density commuter working.

The local train fleet across the North of England has been united under the Northern banner for over a decade now, it is astonishing that the opportunity continues to be missed to undertake a high quality refurbishment to create a homogenous look within each train class.

That all costs money that Northern don't, really, need ( or want) to spend. Revenue is lower on Northern than, say, SWT after all.

 

[sprinterguy]

That all costs money that Northern don't, really, need ( or want) to spend. Revenue is lower on Northern than, say, SWT after all.

Yet Regional Railways were able to initiate a class 156 refurbishment programme, and Northern Spirit and First North Western were able to comprehensively refurbish their 142/156 and 150 fleets respectively within a much shorter franchise term, despite all three carrying fewer passengers per annum than Northern do today. As such I don't think that the "where's the money" argument is sufficient reason to leave the seating unchanged from what it was 15, or more, years ago, when other internal changes are being made out of necessity.

 

[superkev]

Refubishment is probably the wrong word as to me it means a complete put back to as new including mechanical componants too. Perhaps redecoration or refresh would be a better word.
Perpaps the 158s particularly would benifit from son mis life enhancement to the air con, engine and transmisdion with state of the art replacements.
K

 

[dave87016]

From the looks of things I will sum up the refurbishment of 150275. cheap, poor, disappointing might aswell not have bothered sorry to be harsh For me its like upgrading from a reliant robin to a mini cooper !! when you could easily have gone for a Porsche or Ferrari

 

[northwichcat]

From the looks of things I will sum up the refurbishment of 150275. cheap, poor, disappointing might aswell not have bothered sorry to be harsh For me its like upgrading from a reliant robin to a mini cooper !! when you could easily have gone for a Porsche or Ferrari

I think you've oversold the refurbishment. Mini Coopers are popular and not just with those who can't afford a bigger car.

One thing I don't understand is why they've kept the old wooden doors between the carriages - they are difficult to open and close so don't finish up properly closed a lot of the time so suddenly open and slam shut when the train picks up speed.

 

[Crossforth]

I think you've oversold the refurbishment. Mini Coopers are popular and not just with those who can't afford a bigger car.

One thing I don't understand is why they've kept the old wooden doors between the carriages - they are difficult to open and close so don't finish up properly closed a lot of the time so suddenly open and slam shut when the train picks up speed.

The doors will have been kept because they are fire doors. How good they are I don't know but I suppose if the train doesn't have them then they don't need to be put in, however if it does have them then I assume they'd need to be replaced. As not much else has been replaced, I doubt fire doors are high on their list.

 

[Orchid]

The refresh probably isn't that bad, it's more a problem of an overhyped product and a wilful failure to manage expectations. Phrases such as "transformational" and "like new interior" inevitably lead to disappointment when the end result is less than that, especially when people see what can be done with the likes of EMTs 158s, for example.

 

[johntea]

This is a bit of a cheeky advertising campaign by Northern!

 

[Bletchleyite]

From the looks of things I will sum up the refurbishment of 150275. cheap, poor, disappointing might aswell not have bothered sorry to be harsh For me its like upgrading from a reliant robin to a mini cooper !! when you could easily have gone for a Porsche or Ferrari

It's more Alex Hynes bluster. No substance, nor has there ever been. They need rid of him and a competent replacement. Arriva were truly mad to keep him.

 

[TC60054]

This is a bit of a cheeky advertising campaign by Northern!

Is it? It's outdated as the service now starts from Halifax, yes, but it's a service that's run by the train shown in the photo, which comes with seats and wifi. I don't see what else is wrong with it?