Open Data Train Timetable Websites

[yorkie]

Wouldn't it be nice if we could get a proper answer about freight schedules and - if it's a "yes" - end the constant elitism over people who have schedule gen and people who don't?

Yes I have seen this! Sometimes the person who thinks they were the 'first' person to look it up on TRUST appears to claim some sort of ownership over the data and then wants crediting when that data is used by anyone else. It's most odd!

What I'd like to see is locations become hyperlinks, so you can look up a train, then click on the destination (or any calling point) and it will show you trains at that location at those times. At least one of the sites does already do this.

A map highlighting the entire route (not just calling points, as on one of the sites) would be good too.

Another benefit of this site, is people can more easily find out when cheaper route specific fares are valid (e.g. Route: Altrincham, Route: High Wycombe, Route: Lancaster) when their train does not call at the station. (Though clearly some training is needed at Arriva & Virgin regarding acceptance of these tickets!)

 

[Poggs]

Yes I have seen this! Sometimes the person who thinks they were the 'first' person to look it up on TRUST appears to claim some sort of ownership over the data and then wants crediting when that data is used by anyone else. It's most odd!

Incidentally, levelling the playing field wasn't the primary reason I started all this work, but it's jolly interesting to see how people are reacting. Two of the things I've seen:

- Reusing TSDBExplorer (the code I've released as Open Source that runs Open Train Times), making trivial changes to the layout, getting an ".im" domain that's very similar to Tom's and then working on "something unique" as an afterthought
- Asking me lots of questions about how to set his own site up, then going to pester Network Rail (against my polite advice not to), and suddenly posting lots of TRUST-like gen which actually comes from CIF schedules - there are ways to check...

What I'd like to see is locations become hyperlinks, so you can look up a train, then click on the destination (or any calling point) and it will show you trains at that location at those times. At least one of the sites does already do this.

I've got that planned. It's trivial actually, as are many things - however unlike Tom, I have a much more contended schedule

A map highlighting the entire route (not just calling points, as on one of the sites) would be good too.

Got that planned too - I have a meeting next week about it actually.

 

[SprinterMan]

Can you edit an open poll?

 

[lyndhurst25]

Timetables 2 "Not presently showing freight or charter services."

What happened?

 

[tsr]

Timetables 2 "Not presently showing freight or charter services."

What happened?

Nobody seems sure of what happened at the moment. We're discussing it here.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

At the risk of hijacking this thread: Does anyone know where you get open train schedule data from in a format suitable for use by computer programs?

My reason for asking is I'm a computer programmer (interested in rail but no connection to the rail industry). Over the last couple of years I've occasionally thought that I'd like to try writing a website to show train timetables (as a purely personal, hobby, thing, with no expectation that I could do any better than the ones out there), but it's never gone beyond a thought because I wasn't aware that train data was openly available in a suitable format (or that there were already sites using it, I'd assumed that the big commercial sites probably bought the information and no doubt at a higher cost than any individual could afford). But it looks from this thread like I was mistaken and that information is available - and is indeed used by the sites that this thread is about. But some googling hasn't given me any clues about how to get that information. So - does anyone know?

 

[Rhydgaled]

At the risk of hijacking this thread: Does anyone know where you get open train schedule data from in a format suitable for use by computer programs?

My reason for asking is I'm a computer programmer (interested in rail but no connection to the rail industry). Over the last couple of years I've occasionally thought that I'd like to try writing a website to show train timetables (as a purely personal, hobby, thing, with no expectation that I could do any better than the ones out there), but it's never gone beyond a thought because I wasn't aware that train data was openly available in a suitable format (or that there were already sites using it, I'd assumed that the big commercial sites probably bought the information and no doubt at a higher cost than any individual could afford). But it looks from this thread like I was mistaken and that information is available - and is indeed used by the sites that this thread is about. But some googling hasn't given me any clues about how to get that information. So - does anyone know?

I already asked a similar question (and also whether you could get bus data) and got the following answer:

Yes. http://data.atoc.org and Traveline recently released TNDS which is the national bus dataset: http://traveline.info/tnds.

Working on mashing them up together.

First link in that quote should be the rail data, the second bus data.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Thanks Rhydgaled, that's exactly what I was looking for. I've just registered and downloaded the data.

 

[yorkie]

If there is anyone here who is interested in possibly developing software / using open data from a timetabling / routeing / fares perspective, you may wish to consider attending a Fares workshop, simply complete the Doodle by adding your name and putting (sw) after your name. If there's enough demand, and if we can find a suitable date, we'll get it organised.

 

[Meridian richard]

So is there any site at the moment that is showing Freight timetables, apart from having to pay for things like FreightMaster?

 

[Poggs]

So is there any site at the moment that is showing Freight timetables, apart from having to pay for things like FreightMaster?

If there is a source other than Freightmaster and they don't have explicit permission from Network Rail and/or the FOCs, then they're seriously damaging all efforts to get these schedules legitimately and freely available. It is ridiculously easy for Network Rail to remove freight data from electronic timetable extracts, and I'd rather they weren't pushed toward doing that.

I've already had fairly strong words with one person who thought his "small operation" was a good way to get the data back out there, and I hope he now begrudgingly sees that the best way forward is a unified one.

I am busy compiling a set of serious uses for freight data. The enthusiast community doesn't feature in that list because I don't think anyone would take me seriously if I called that a "use case". However, the things that are on the list include research and planning. If anyone else has more use cases, please send me a private message on here - I would really love to make the list longer.

 

[tsr]

The enthusiast community doesn't feature in that list because I don't think anyone would take me seriously if I called that a "use case".

I have to say, I'm surprised at that. You only have to look at the number of magazines, websites, fairs, meetups and generally the numbers of people trainspotting at stations, doing research and reading/writing about it to realise that there must be a serious boost to an individual station's economy if many enthusiasts congregate there - perhaps due to an exciting freight timetable. You could add it as a footnote to your list, I think, at the very least.

In addition, safe and sensible train enthusiasts can add security eyes and ears to a station when they visit. If freight knowledge is the cause of visits, then that can probably be no bad thing.

I do, however, agree that any data deemed overly sensitive should not be published - Royal Train movements (not that this is freight, of course!), nuclear material, etc. I also agree that if NR have actually forbidden publication verbally or in print, then such data need not be made known. On the other hand, imposing any moral or other standards that others may have reasonable cause to disagree with on the publication of data that presumably is not yours to control sounds rather dubious to me. I appreciate you want to do the right thing, but I hope you are not pressurising people beyond what the data provider and any contracts and regulations provide you with the incentive to do. I'm not saying you actually are, by the way.

 

[Poggs]

I have to say, I'm surprised at that. You only have to look at the number of magazines, websites, fairs, meetups and generally the numbers of people trainspotting at stations, doing research and reading/writing about it to realise that there must be a serious boost to an individual station's economy if many enthusiasts congregate there - perhaps due to an exciting freight timetable. You could add it as a footnote to your list, I think, at the very least.

I can't see much of an economic boost other than increasing the sale of platform tickets, and larger numbers of refreshments being sold. Even if additional enthusiasts congregate safely in public areas of the station, it's still not much of an overall benefit to safety and security.

Call me pessimistic, but I think that's the harsh reality of the situation... but I will add enthusiasts as a footnote. If this case gets won, the enthusiast community will be a secondary benefit.

 

[Rhydgaled]

A source of freight times would certainly be useful for anyone campaigning for service improvments. I've done quite a bit of messing around with timetables trying to figure whether or not a services I would like to see are actually possible. Without knowing frieght times, I cannot be 100% sure whether frieght services block the 'paths' (not sure if I get the fully technical meaning of a path) I seem to have identified for said services.

 

[33056]

One thing that people are maybe forgetting about freight times is that a large number of them are just paths; in other words you will not usually see a train at some of those times, it will only run one or two days a week or, if a train does appear at that time, it might be something completely different running out of course. The advantage of subscribing to Freightmaster is that the tables that Mark produces are far more accurate in terms of what is likely to run than a list pulled off TRUST and they tell you what sort of train it is (containers, coal etc.)

Also, regarding the Royal Train, its schedules are never input into the system so it will not be picked up by Open Train Times or any similar site.

 

[tsr]

One thing that people are maybe forgetting about freight times is that a large number of them are just paths; in other words you will not usually see a train at some of those times, it will only run one or two days a week or, if a train does appear at that time, it might be something completely different running out of course. The advantage of subscribing to Freightmaster is that the tables that Mark produces are far more accurate in terms of what is likely to run than a list pulled off TRUST and they tell you what sort of train it is (containers, coal etc.)

Although, to some extent, the start/termination points of a freight service can tell you what type of freight it might be, although of course not whether it'll run or the stock used.

 

[wbbminerals]

Although, to some extent, the start/termination points of a freight service can tell you what type of freight it might be, although of course not whether it'll run or the stock used.

Start and termination points can sometimes tell you the operator (eg places that have FLHH or EWS in the name), also intermodal (and maybe other fast freight) headcodes start with a 4 so that distinguishes them.

 

[The Planner]

Empty coal wagons tend to be Class 4 now.

 

[tsr]

Start and termination points can sometimes tell you the operator (eg places that have FLHH or EWS in the name), also intermodal (and maybe other fast freight) headcodes start with a 4 so that distinguishes them.

Yes indeed.

Does the headcode number rule "4xxx" for intermodal loads always apply - I assume there are probably exceptions here and there?

 

[Freightmaster]

Does the headcode number rule "4xxx" for intermodal loads always apply - I assume there are probably exceptions here and there?

Correct - there are a handful of DB intermodal trains which run as
class 6 workings due to the wagons used.

MARK

 

[D6975]

I have used Open train times a few times and find it good for most places.

 

[Meridian richard]

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=306&p=1564115
Is it true? I can't seem to find any?

 

[Temple Meads]

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=306&p=1564115
Is it true? I can't seem to find any?

Same here

 

[GB]

While obviously said as a joke, comments like the second post on that topic don't really help matters!

 

[Poggs]

http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=306&p=1564115
Is it true? I can't seem to find any?

They're not up there.

There is a very small window of opportunity overnight, during the time when the schedule database is updated, where *if* the web server spawns another process, you *might* be able to see some freight schedules for a short period of time... but that's it, I'm afraid.

The freight situation is still horribly complicated and full of beliefs by various parties about unwritten rules of ownership, confidentiality and security that are now being challenged.

 

[D6975]

Open Train Times
http://www.opentraintimes.com/
Pros
First website to use open data (I think)
Simple User Interface
Shows what class of stock operates services (i.e. Class 317, Class 321 etc.)
Shows train facilities

Open train times does not show what class of stock is used on a service, it shows what kind of stock the service has been timed for. This can be confusing in some cases - all Anglia 170 diagrams show as timed for a 158 for example, despite Anglia not having any 158s (except loans).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Timetables 2 simply doesn't work on my PC at work. Presss the search button and nothing happens. (using IE8 - not by choice)
Works fine at home on Firefox.

 

[Poggs]

Open train times does not show what class of stock is used on a service, it shows what kind of stock the service has been timed for. This can be confusing in some cases - all Anglia 170 diagrams show as timed for a 158 for example, despite Anglia not having any 158s (except loans).

"Timed for" and "Booked traction" are two entirely different things - I covered it in a previous post in this thread.

 

[Meridian richard]

Does open train times still cover things such as a Grand Central 180 running as ECS up the MML

 

[Temple Meads]

Does open train times cover things such as a Grand Central 180 running as ECS up the MML

Yes, ECS moves are included.

 

[jamieintercity]

The charter times for the SRPS Perth to fort William via Hamilton central have been put on opentraintimes. So have the charter and freight times return to these websites?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The charter times for the SRPS Perth to fort William via Hamilton central have been put on opentraintimes. So have the charter and freight times return to these websites?

Just checked rail.swinglines.co.UK and they are currently showing some charter trains (probably already having times available) but no freight times.