Out of touch with the market?

[VauxhallandI]

Just had to book a trip to Glasgow and back over the weekend 3/4 October.

Virgin WC, cheapest around £90 with a 6am start meaning tough to get to Euston. Anything up to £130 for other options.

Ryanair £42 with decent timings.

Not often I choose Ryan but it was a no brainer this time.

Maybe this is not always the case but I noticed the off peak return to Manchester is up at £81 now, this forces me into the car for football trips as it is cheaper to drive with only one in the car.

Shame

 

[najaB]

Just had to book a trip to Glasgow and back over the weekend 3/4 October.

Virgin WC, cheapest around £90 with a 6am start meaning tough to get to Euston. Anything up to £130 for other options.

Where from? There are £30 advances in both directions to/from Euston.

 

[Merseysider]

This is one I'd be tempted to fly as well, unless there were really cheap 1st advances going.

On this occasion, there are bottom tier STD advances available, or if that doesn't take your fancy, you can avoid using Virgin the whole way. £20 advances on the 9am (and earlier) VT Euston-Manchester and £20ish TPE advances for Manchester - Glasgow.

On a side note, VTWC have got so greedy that the Anytime Return from Liverpool to Glasgow via Preston (£137) now exceeds the Anytime Return Any Permitted (£121.50) (set by VTEC to allow travel via York), even if you add back on the 10% VTEC just knocked off their Anytime fares.

You'll find similar situations on routes where other companies and Virgin WC operate alternative routes north/south, with Northern's sensibly priced SDR/SOR fares through Wigan/Preston and London Midland-priced Any Permitted/Not via Birmingham day returns on the Trent Valley making Virgin's ridiculous fares, quite frankly, an insult to anyone unable to commit to advances.

And on the subject of advances, Virgin's APs from Wigan up to Carlisle/Glasgow are often more expensive than TPE's advances on the same route, even though Virgin rarely see full capacity outside the 6-7pm period.

At least with Ryanair you're guaranteed a seat

 

[VauxhallandI]

Where from? There are £30 advances in both directions to/from Euston.

Euston.

The 6:05 and 7:30 had £30 but I risk missing them and tbh the early one really needs a hotel the night before.

I need to be in South Glasgow for a lunch so later trains don't work.
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This is one I'd be tempted to fly as well, unless there were really cheap 1st advances going.

On this occasion, there are bottom tier STD advances available, or if that doesn't take your fancy, you can avoid using Virgin the whole way. £20 advances on the 9am (and earlier) VT Euston-Manchester and £20ish TPE advances for Manchester - Glasgow.

On a side note, VTWC have got so greedy that the Anytime Return from Liverpool to Glasgow via Preston (£137) now exceeds the Anytime Return Any Permitted (£121.50) (set by VTEC to allow travel via York), even if you add back on the 10% VTEC just knocked off their Anytime fares.

You'll find similar situations on routes where other companies and Virgin WC operate alternative routes north/south, with Northern's sensibly priced SDR/SOR fares through Wigan/Preston and London Midland-priced Any Permitted/Not via Birmingham day returns on the Trent Valley making Virgin's ridiculous fares, quite frankly, an insult to anyone unable to commit to advances.

And on the subject of advances, Virgin's APs from Wigan up to Carlisle/Glasgow are often more expensive than TPE's advances on the same route, even though Virgin rarely see full capacity outside the 6-7pm period.

At least with Ryanair you're guaranteed a seat

Thanks for the info but I'm not into swapping trains and TOCs it's a receipe for disaster

 

[Greenback]

It's a fact that rail doesn't work for every journey. Now that railways aren't really regarded as a public service, the industry concentrates on maximising revenue, rather than trying to be all things to all passengers.

Even though I'm a committed rail user, even I find that there are journeys where the car, plane or even coach is a better choice for various reasons.

 

[Starmill]

It isn't guaranteed to offer any improvements on this particular journey, but before discounting the Rail option, run your journeys in future through Trainsplit. Oftentimes you can stay on the same train but it reduces the price.

Also, it's a lot easier for people to offer advice if you're clear where you're coming from and going to. Most people in the UK don't live in London after all!

 

[Tetchytyke]

At least with Ryanair you're guaranteed a seat

Having just stood all the way from London to Carlisle because a) the computer reservation system was down so my reservation was worthless and b) the two unreservable carriages were reserved for a group booking ("you're not allowed in there pal"), this, this and thrice this.

I've been up to Glasgow a few times recently and Easyjet Luton-Paisley was cheaper and faster.

 

[Hadders]

You cannot expect rail to be the cheapest every time.

Sometimes it's better to fly, sometimes rail is better.

As ever we must make sure we compare prices on a like for like basis. You can walk on to a train service from London to Glasgow for around £120 return any day if the week. You can't always do this if you fly.

 

[Merseysider]

Having just stood all the way from London to Carlisle because a) the computer reservation system was down so my reservation was worthless and b) the two unreservable carriages were reserved for a group booking ("you're not allowed in there pal"), this, this and thrice this.

I've been up to Glasgow a few times recently and Easyjet Luton-Paisley was cheaper and faster.

If your reservation wasn't honoured you're entitled to at least 5% back.

(Can you get that in cash now?)

 

[maniacmartin]

As ever we must make sure we compare prices on a like for like basis. You can walk on to a train service from London to Glasgow for around £120 return any day if the week. You can't always do this if you fly.

On weekdays for domestic routes like this, my experience* is airlines have Advanced tickets still on sale even the day before more often than intercity TOCs do though

*not based on any scientific method

 

[Merseysider]

On weekdays for domestic routes like this, my experience* is airlines have Advanced tickets still on sale even the day before more often than intercity TOCs do though

*not based on any scientific method

And on the day, too. 1hr 15m, £133 for the 2135 easyjet from Stansted this evening.

But I suppose the hassle of getting to, from and through each airport detracts from that.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If your reservation wasn't honoured you're entitled to at least 5% back.

I'd rather have a seat than the fiver compensation tbh.

At least you don't have to stand on the plane.

 

[Hadders]

But if the plane's fully booked you want travel.

At least with rail you can choose whether or not to travel (and stand if necessary).

Truth is, we need all forms of public transport as well as cars to move people effectively.

 

[Agent_c]

Just had to book a trip to Glasgow and back over the weekend 3/4 October.

Virgin WC, cheapest around £90 with a 6am start meaning tough to get to Euston. Anything up to £130 for other options.

Ryanair £42 with decent timings.

Not often I choose Ryan but it was a no brainer this time.

Plus how much to get from where you are, to the airport, and then from the airport into town?

 

[westv]

Plus how much to get from where you are, to the airport, and then from the airport into town?

There are also often extra costs and time getting to and from a railway station.

 

[Agent_c]

There are also often extra costs and time getting to and from a railway station.

Glasgow Central is right in the centre of town. Glasgow - Prestwick Airport is 7.80, the bus to Glasgow international is 6.50.

I wouldn't characterise Euston as being out of the way in London, definitely not to the extend of Stanstead, where the Glasgow flights leave from... A mere £19 from Liverpool Street, or £8 if you book 30 days in advance.

 

[Hadders]

Johngill100 appears to be based in Cheshunt so it's probably quicker and cheaper for him to get to Stansted than Euston.

Not everyone is based in the city centre.

 

[deltic]

To come back to the original point - no the rail industry is not out of touch with the market - ticket are priced higher because people are prepared to pay.Why sell ten tickets for £30 when I could sell six for £60. Four people are brassed of because they cant afford the higher price but the operator and the tax payer benefit from higher revenue and hence a lower subsidy to the rail industry.

 

[yorksrob]

To come back to the original point - no the rail industry is not out of touch with the market - ticket are priced higher because people are prepared to pay.Why sell ten tickets for £30 when I could sell six for £60. Four people are brassed of because they cant afford the higher price but the operator and the tax payer benefit from higher revenue and hence a lower subsidy to the rail industry.

I'm not entirely sure that's true from a political point of view, looking at your worked example.

Given the amount of public funding going into the railway at the moment, the political emphasis is likely to be getting bums on seats.

Those four brassed off people are taxpayers contributing to the railways costs who have most likely been pushed onto the congested road network whilst four empty seats are running up and down the country. That doesn't look good for the railway.

I've undoubtedly mentioned this before, but some of the InterCity TOC's seem to have become a bit of a one-trick pony, over-reliant on advanced purchase.

 

[deltic]

I'm not entirely sure that's true from a political point of view, looking at your worked example.

Given the amount of public funding going into the railway at the moment, the political emphasis is likely to be getting bums on seats.

Those four brassed off people are taxpayers contributing to the railways costs who have most likely been pushed onto the congested road network whilst four empty seats are running up and down the country. That doesn't look good for the railway.

I've undoubtedly mentioned this before, but some of the InterCity TOC's seem to have become a bit of a one-trick pony, over-reliant on advanced purchase.

The railway companies whether we like it or not have to meet financial targets in terms of the premium payments they make or subsidy received - they are principally concerned with revenues not the number of punters carried - Virgin have tired long and hard to get further restrictions put in place to reduce passengers wanting to travel at peak times and to maximise revenues eg Friday evenings out of London.

Most intercity trains have empty first class carriages and operators walk on fares have risen way in excess of inflation - they obviously arent bothered about the political storm that constantly hits them over the missmatch between demand and supply. Again suggests revenue rather than punters is their key concern

 

[yorksrob]

The railway companies whether we like it or not have to meet financial targets in terms of the premium payments they make or subsidy received - they are principally concerned with revenues not the number of punters carried - Virgin have tired long and hard to get further restrictions put in place to reduce passengers wanting to travel at peak times and to maximise revenues eg Friday evenings out of London.

Most intercity trains have empty first class carriages and operators walk on fares have risen way in excess of inflation - they obviously arent bothered about the political storm that constantly hits them over the missmatch between demand and supply. Again suggests revenue rather than punters is their key concern

I'm afraid that that model will become less and less sustainable the more visible the public subsidy. They do seem to have weathered the political storm so far, but the party won't carry on for ever.

 

[Agent_c]

Johngill100 appears to be based in Cheshunt so it's probably quicker and cheaper for him to get to Stansted than Euston.

Off peak day single Ches-Standstead is 10.50, you can get an ADS to Euston for 9.50. Euston is 1-5 minutes further away.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Off peak day single Ches-Standstead is 10.50, you can get an ADS to Euston for 9.50. Euston is 1-5 minutes further away.

Indeed for me the two options are fairly equal and if I can get a lift to Stansted then less hassle than the train and tube scrum.

It's not so bad on the way to Euston but the lottery of the Seven Sisters connection on the way back can lead to a half hour wait.mat the end of a trip sitting at SVS station is very very depressing!

 

[Haywain]

Given the amount of public funding going into the railway at the moment, the political emphasis is likely to be getting bums on seats.

I don't think that's right. The political emphasis is on reducing subsidy to or increasing premium from the TOCs. It is politically expedient to be seen to be on the side of the passenger, but the reality is that fares are not going to be reduced so that more seats are filled if that reduces income.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think that's right. The political emphasis is on reducing subsidy to or increasing premium from the TOCs. It is politically expedient to be seen to be on the side of the passenger, but the reality is that fares are not going to be reduced so that more seats are filled if that reduces income.

The only reason they are managing to keep a lid on it all at the moment is that no one outside of the railway fraternity really understands the ins and outs of yield management. I'm sure someone important will cotton on eventually.

 

[NSEFAN]

The only reason they are managing to keep a lid on it all at the moment is that no one outside of the railway fraternity really understands the ins and outs of yield management. I'm sure someone important will cotton on eventually.

Why would the government have a problem with this method of yield management? If the railways have maximised their revenue (and therefore maximised payments to the DfT) then in that case putting more bums on seats may not be beneficial and may in fact reduce revenue.

Yes this may not be as effective at reducing congestion on the roads or reducing airline passenger numbers, and yes this may not be sustainable in the long term (because there may come a point when those rich customers paying the full anytime fare stop using the train for whatever reason), but until then the railway and the treasury are quids in, which is ultimately better for the taxpayer who props the whole system up. If there is an exodus of rich people using the trains then the railways can simply lower the fares and ease the restrictions to compensate to try and find the new maximum revenue point.

 

[talltim]

Why would the government have a problem with this method of yield management? If the railways have maximised their revenue (and therefore maximised payments to the DfT) then in that case putting more bums on seats may not be beneficial and may in fact reduce revenue.

Yes this may not be as effective at reducing congestion on the roads or reducing airline passenger numbers, and yes this may not be sustainable in the long term (because there may come a point when those rich customers paying the full anytime fare stop using the train for whatever reason), but until then the railway and the treasury are quids in, which is ultimately better for the taxpayer who props the whole system up. If there is an exodus of rich people using the trains then the railways can simply lower the fares and ease the restrictions to compensate to try and find the new maximum revenue point.

Better for the taxpayer doesn't just equal paying less tax. Fewer cars on the road are also better for the taxpayer. Less pollution is also better for the taxpayer.

 

[NSEFAN]

Better for the taxpayer doesn't just equal paying less tax. Fewer cars on the road are also better for the taxpayer. Less pollution is also better for the taxpayer.

True, although fancy yield management is mostly the remit of intercity TOCs. Although Virgin et al. have their own commuter flows I would expect that more local TOCs with high density rolling stock are better positioned to help tackle road congestion by putting bums on seats, as most road congestion in the peaks is down to people going to and from work. In which case, profit from the intercity routes can be used to invest in the commuter routes and help ensure there's enough capacity. The same can be said for rural lines, whose costs may be disproportionately higher than the busy mainlines but the service is deemed to be socially necessary.