Overhead line problems at Radlett

[ChiefPlanner]

You don't get it do you! I live on the Hatfield side of St Albans, I already walk for 20 mins from City Station - I don't really want the extra 15 mins walk from Abbey station on top!

The walk from the Abbey to SAC is more like 30 mins ....I know from experience

 

[Class377/5]

There are two bi-directional platforms at St Pancras Low Level. There is a depot full of units in Bedford and the cross-London route has been open for trains on both days. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of proper railwaymen (and women) to devise a contingency timetable using both platforms at St Pancras LL and the crossovers at Dock Junction to run a 15 minute clockface timetable.

Trains should call only at those stations north of St Pancras that have no reasonable alternative public transport options. So the calling pattern should be Elstree, Radlett and all stations to Bedford, every 15 minutes. It takes about 1 hour 20 minutes to get from St Pancras to Bedford, so the service should be deliverable using 15 Class 377/5s (five 12-car trains) plus 10 Class 319s (five 8-car trains) with room to spare.

There's no excuse at all for using 4-car trains - apart from management incompetence. The only units that have a Safety case to run coupled as 12-cars are the class 377s, but the really shabby units recently leased from Southern seem to have defective door cameras, which means they can only call at stations with platform staff to safely dispatch the trains (no good for Harlington and Flitwick).

My figures are a bit back of the envelope, but I'm prepared to negotiate.

Just point that 12 cars doing what you proposed (following eight cars) yesterday were leaving people behind at St Pancras. Plus you fail to deliver a service to people before Elstree despite 12 cars being able to call at West Hampstead and Mill Hill.

Your plan is not suitable for usage as if fails to give a service to all station so would never be considered as everyone must be given a service if the lines are open. That's not a choice.

Your figures are well and good in theory but you fail to address anything other than your own needs and don't take into account anything agreed with DfT or passenger groups so it would be rejected without even being looked into.

You also fail to look beyond units. Just because a fleet might be able to introduce this, what about staff? Note that Thameslink offers a 24hr service so drivers are already somewhere doing an altered service and can't just rewrite their diagrams and shifts after they start. So good effort but sadly lacking in real world experience.

 

[38Cto15E]

I must have been lucky, I was on the 1515 hrs St Pancras-Nottingham HST yesterday afternoon and breezed through, no hints of a delay at all.

 

[asylumxl]

You don't get it do you! I live on the Hatfield side of St Albans, I already walk for 20 mins from City Station - I don't really want the extra 15 mins walk from Abbey station on top!

You could get a bus up to St Peters St and then probably to your destination, surely? You're complaining about the fact the buses were overloaded, and yet you insist on taking that route because the other stations a little further away from your destination?

 

[E16 Cyclist]

There are two bi-directional platforms at St Pancras Low Level. There is a depot full of units in Bedford and the cross-London route has been open for trains on both days. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of proper railwaymen (and women) to devise a contingency timetable using both platforms at St Pancras LL and the crossovers at Dock Junction to run a 15 minute clockface timetable.

Trains should call only at those stations north of St Pancras that have no reasonable alternative public transport options. So the calling pattern should be Elstree, Radlett and all stations to Bedford, every 15 minutes. It takes about 1 hour 20 minutes to get from St Pancras to Bedford, so the service should be deliverable using 15 Class 377/5s (five 12-car trains) plus 10 Class 319s (five 8-car trains) with room to spare.

There's no excuse at all for using 4-car trains - apart from management incompetence. The only units that have a Safety case to run coupled as 12-cars are the class 377s, but the really shabby units recently leased from Southern seem to have defective door cameras, which means they can only call at stations with platform staff to safely dispatch the trains (no good for Harlington and Flitwick).

My figures are a bit back of the envelope, but I'm prepared to negotiate.

It sounds to me like the running of 4 car trains may not actually be management incompetence. Given the damage to the OHLE its quite likely Network Rail dictated what type of trains used the affected section as 8 or 12 carriage trains in theory could have tripped the overheads and the situation is back to square one.

Obviously a 4 carriage train in the circumstances isn't ideal but its better than no train

 

[asylumxl]

The walk from the Abbey to SAC is more like 30 mins ....I know from experience

You must walk rather slow, as even with the slow pace Google Maps assumes you walk at they predict 17 minutes.

Don't believe me feel free to check for yourself.

I know from experience. Even going up Hollywell Hill and down Victoria Street won't take you that long...

 

[The Box Photter]

I suspect the reason why people were being left at St Pancras was because they did not want to go where that train was going. As for the issue of having to provide a service for the poor unfortunates who couldn't get to West Hampstead, what about delivering a service to passengers for Luton and stations north of that ?

 

[SAPhil]

Y You're complaining about the fact the buses were overloaded, and yet you insist on taking that route because the other stations a little further away from your destination?

If you read my original post you would see that I arranged for my wife to pick me up! What I actually said was that I could understand why other people were annoyed. The fact remains FCC were directing St Albans commuters to go to Hatfield without too much thought on what to do with them once they had got there!

 

[jon0844]

Last time this happened, the advice for southbound passengers was to use local buses to victoria, and of course the bus driver would not accept a rail ticket, so I had to pay an extra fare for being delayed.

You could of course claim this back. FCC states this in its disruption leaflets.

When I was on a Heathrow Connect train that had to terminate at Hayes & Harlington, and the next train was cancelled (and needing to get to the airport, I couldn't just wait to see if the one after was running - a 60 minute or so wait), I was sent to get a regular bus upstairs and told to claim back the fare.

I didn't bother as it wasn't worth it - but that was my decision.

 

[asylumxl]

If you read my original post you would see that I arranged for my wife to pick me up! What I actually said was that I could understand why other people were annoyed. The fact remains FCC were directing St Albans commuters to go to Hatfield without too much thought on what to do with them once they had got there!

And if you read my post you'd see that's why I said they're mindless lemmings. They did think about what to do. Just unfortunately bus and coach companies do not keep them lying around ready for major disruption. They will have them out earning whenever possible.

If they were as you say returning home then they should know St Albans better and be aware of the alternatives they could take.

One thing I've noticed nobody considered is that if they could walk a few bus stops away from the station they'd have a significantly shorter wait and better chance of a seat on the Arriva or Uno buses.

 

[jon0844]

As for the issue of having to provide a service for the poor unfortunates who couldn't get to West Hampstead, what about delivering a service to passengers for Luton and stations north of that ?

West Hampstead is well served by other trains, so I'd certainly consider it a low priority in times of disruption. Why have crush loaded trains for people going further north, full of people wanting to get off there?

 

[asylumxl]

West Hampstead is well served by other trains, so I'd certainly consider it a low priority in times of disruption. Why have crush loaded trains for people going further north, full of people wanting to get off there?

Here here. They usually have the choice of TL, Overground and the Jubilee Line, with other stations within reasonable walking distance. Not like they're stuck for options.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I suspect the reason why people were being left at St Pancras was because they did not want to go where that train was going. As for the issue of having to provide a service for the poor unfortunates who couldn't get to West Hampstead, what about delivering a service to passengers for Luton and stations north of that ?

Well said. If FCC could only run a sparse service from St Pancras, the priority should be to serve stations that can only be reached by travelling on FCC services.
Kentish Town and West Hampstead are both on tube lines, the former even being served directly with no change of train on the Northern Line. Surely seasoned Thameslink passengers know full well what the alternative routes are, after the long period of 'no trains through the central core' at weekends that only ended relatively recently ??

 

[Class377/5]

West Hampstead is well served by other trains, so I'd certainly consider it a low priority in times of disruption. Why have crush loaded trains for people going further north, full of people wanting to get off there?

So from West Hampstead there frequency other trains to points north then! What people forget it the flow is two way. People don't just want London to West Hampstead but points north so you should abandon them! Your point of serving places like St Albans you fail to deal with commuters who do West Hampstead to St Albans and other intermediate stations.

And if you say go into London and come back then why not the same for all St Albans, Luton, Parkway and Bedford passengers too just to be even handed?

I suspect the reason why people were being left at St Pancras was because they did not want to go where that train was going. As for the issue of having to provide a service for the poor unfortunates who couldn't get to West Hampstead, what about delivering a service to passengers for Luton and stations north of that ?

Seeing as you can't be bothered to actually reply, your point over Luton, Parkway and Bedford is they have alternative services already so why serve them too? And St Albans had another service so why serve them?

Because they all pay and deserve a service, quite frankly for one group to state they deserve everything while another doesn't just destroys your point and scream me meme. Well sorry to say its not just about you so you don't get your iwn way.

Here here. They usually have the choice of TL, Overground and the Jubilee Line, with other stations within reasonable walking distance. Not like they're stuck for options.

They are if they want to go other stations north of the line. Why can't people see there's flows from stations north of St Pancras to other station north ir can you only see the flows are from JUST Core stations?

 

[jon0844]

One thing I've noticed nobody considered is that if they could walk a few bus stops away from the station they'd have a significantly shorter wait and better chance of a seat on the Arriva or Uno buses.

Good advice. Works just as well on the Underground in some places (travel back a station then change to come back).

I must admit, I'm not sure where the next bus stop is for buses going towards St Albans though. I expect it's actually quite a long walk up and towards Welwyn Garden City.

I think people around St Albans (and likewise Hatfield) are fairly fortunate in having another line so near. If you're in a real hurry, there are cabs easily available from either station to take you to the other.

 

[The Box Photter]

if you want to go north from W Hampstead you could get the Northern Line back only St Pancras. It's an issue of fareness. in the evening peak most passengers want to go to St Albans and stations north thereof. We have NO OTHER reasonable means of getting to Leagrave Harlington and Flitwick. FCC regularly misses out stops at these stations for operational convenience.

FCC should put out a clear message that in times of disruption it will concentrate its resources on providing a service to stations that cannot be reached by tube or bus or a combination of both. For most passengers going to and from stations within Greater London, the alternative bus or tube journey will be covered by their Travelcard, with no questions asked.

For Flitwick passengers the alternative was London Midland to Bletchley and then get the once per hour train from Bletchley to Bedford. A complete joke.

 

[jon0844]

They are if they want to go other stations north of the line. Why can't people see there's flows from stations north of St Pancras to other station north ir can you only see the flows are from JUST Core stations?

I'd suggest that FCC should allow you to travel to St Pancras and double back if you want to go north form West Hampstead (during disruption). If you have a Travelcard, it's possible to do at any time anyway. Yes, it might be a little longer but it would surely make the trains in both directions bearable (as a lot of people going to the station you've just come from aren't going to be on that train). Of course, I'm not saying NO trains should stop there during disruption - but running some fast by skipping these stations makes sense.

I know that in an ideal world, a TOC would come up with some magical solution that helps everyone - but if you sat down for a few hours (and that would probably not be long enough to consider what a TOC will have realised and learned over time, with historical data and experience etc) and thought about all the logistics, including the usual passenger loadings, rolling stock, driver availability, safety at the stations with large crowds, access to/from the station for buses, paths etc - I am sure you'd come to the same conclusion that some of the stations with good alternatives might be better off with a lesser service.

I bet many commuters wouldn't want to be told a whole list of what they'd see as feeble excuses, but I am sure if FCC or any other TOC ever gave that level of detail to explain its actions, people might not be so quick to complain. As it happens, I remember back around 2006/7 that FCC often put up posters apologising for disruption the day after with a very long explanation - so much so that you'd probably be late for work reading it! Now, it seems apologies are far shorter and less informative, which is probably why people just assume the TOC couldn't be bothered. That's not to say they may not have made some mistakes, or misjudged things, but I don't think any company simply doesn't care.

 

[EM2]

It shouldn't be beyond the wit of proper railwaymen (and women) to devise a contingency timetable using both platforms at St Pancras LL and the crossovers at Dock Junction to run a 15 minute clockface timetable.

And what about using some of that platform capacity for services going South? Or are you going to send all those passengers on to the already-heaving Tube to get to also already-heaving Victoria & London Bridge to get on services which are pretty much rammed?

 

[Class377/5]

if you want to go north from W Hampstead you could get the Northern Line back only St Pancras. It's an issue of fareness. in the evening peak most passengers want to go to St Albans and stations north thereof. We have NO OTHER reasonable means of getting to Leagrave Harlington and Flitwick. FCC regularly misses out stops at these stations for operational convenience.

FCC should put out a clear message that in times of disruption it will concentrate its resources on providing a service to stations that cannot be reached by tube or bus or a combination of both. For most passengers going to and from stations within Greater London, the alternative bus or tube journey will be covered by their Travelcard, with no questions asked.

For Flitwick passengers the alternative was London Midland to Bletchley and then get the once per hour train from Bletchley to Bedford. A complete joke.

You do know there's no Northern line at West Hampstead don't you? It's get on Jubilee, change at Finchley Road for Met to complete journey.

But if your in a wheelchair, elderly its a nightmare journey as it taxi only option.

Quite frankly the fact you don't quote my messages shows your not actually interested in discussing this as you ignore any points that renders your agreement pointless. Did you not see my comment over DfT?

But now your complaining about normal service it's clear you have an axe to grind and are not prepared to discuss this sensible. You can't debate something with someone with an agenda like yours when you fail to answer what's been put in front if you.

Feel free to continue your rant now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd suggest that FCC should allow you to travel to St Pancras and double back if you want to go north form West Hampstead (during disruption). If you have a Travelcard, it's possible to do at any time anyway. Yes, it might be a little longer but it would surely make the trains in both directions bearable (as a lot of people going to the station you've just come from aren't going to be on that train). Of course, I'm not saying NO trains should stop there during disruption - but running some fast by skipping these stations makes sense.

I know that in an ideal world, a TOC would come up with some magical solution that helps everyone - but if you sat down for a few hours (and that would probably not be long enough to consider what a TOC will have realised and learned over time, with historical data and experience etc) and thought about all the logistics, including the usual passenger loadings, rolling stock, driver availability, safety at the stations with large crowds, access to/from the station for buses, paths etc - I am sure you'd come to the same conclusion that some of the stations with good alternatives might be better off with a lesser service.

I bet many commuters wouldn't want to be told a whole list of what they'd see as feeble excuses, but I am sure if FCC or any other TOC ever gave that level of detail to explain its actions, people might not be so quick to complain. As it happens, I remember back around 2006/7 that FCC often put up posters apologising for disruption the day after with a very long explanation - so much so that you'd probably be late for work reading it! Now, it seems apologies are far shorter and less informative, which is probably why people just assume the TOC couldn't be bothered. That's not to say they may not have made some mistakes, or misjudged things, but I don't think any company simply doesn't care.

Funny how your idea is to double back yet no-one will accept doing the same at stations north. Why not? It's as valid a point as in peak journey times will be similar due to the loadings in London.

Some stations were skip stopped and in fact all stations north got a 50% cut in service yet its unfair for those north of St Albans? Why are they so special they deserve to screw overs over? People still want to travel between intermediate stops northwards yet you fail to address thier weds. So a person from Mill Hill to Radlett should go via St Pancras! Words fail me as its clear you can't see the bigger picture.

No-one would be happy with the situation but to demand some lose out so others can gain is no fair quite simply and I refuse to accept the point of making others suffer for the gain for a few vocal people.

 

[jon0844]

Why couldn't you just take a train to St Pancras and come back? Weren't trains stopping the other way? Then you still have an accessible option for wheelchair users and the elderly.

By the way, are you wheelchair bound? I ask this because my experience is that there aren't that many wheelchair users and I wonder if FCC might have offered a taxi service to them anyway during the disruption?

Also, why is my idea funny if it's the best solution? How far north would you suggest people double back? West Hampstead and Kentish Town aren't far away.. but would you suggest someone comes all the way in from St Albans or Luton to then get a train north? That said, if it worked out quicker because of disruption then why not allow it?

I do think you're being quite selfish by suggesting that everyone else should suffer equally, when it's quite clear that people needing to go a long way will have very few alternative options (a taxi is certainly not a practical option, whereas getting one in London if you're desperately in a hurry won't break the bank). London has excellent connections and there are many other ways to get to West Hampstead and anyone that lives there will know them anyway. Anyone there with any sense would kick into their plan B and C's automatically and want to keep well away from a station they'll know is going to be rammed - and the risk of getting poor information (and at St Pancras, you're also stuck without phone coverage for most of it).

Is it really that much of a dog-eat-dog world now that someone might not accept that there need to be compromises and that this whole situation is only during disruption, it's not a precursor to a TOC deciding to stop calling at these stations all the time.

Another benefit of being in London is that a lot of people will have a Travelcard and can therefore double back, take a bus or tube without having to worry about ticket acceptance. Those with regular point-to-point seasons might have a bit of grief, but will be entitled to claim the money spent back.

 

[The Box Photter]

yesterday evening no northbound trains called at Flitwick for more than one and a half hours. in that time you could have travelled from st pancras to Kentish town on the tube at least four times.

my suggestion for passengers wanting to go south from London is to have services to Brighton start and terminate at blackfriars.

in an ideal world fcc would be able to cope,but in reality it can't and it should give priority to running a service for passengers who have no alternative.

I've seen my season ticket price rise from around £1500 per year to over £4700 per year with no appreciable improvement in the service.

 

[CatfordCat]

I was at St Albans for a while during Wednesday early evening, and a few observations if I may...

There is not an infinite number of coaches and drivers out there waiting for something like this to happen once in a blue moon. Many of the coaches (and their drivers) had been on other work at some point in the day.

Coaches (or rather coach drivers) are covered by much more stringent "drivers hours" regulations than bus drivers, e.g. maximum driving time without any break, minimum 45 minutes' break somewhere in the shift, maximum driving hours in any day / week and so on. And an increasing number of coaches now have electronic tachographs to record hours. Drivers and coach operators can get prosecuted and have their drivers / operators' licences suspended or in extreme cases revoked for breaches. There are a few "emergency" clauses, but "emergency" here means immediate danger to health, or something like being stuck in a major jam on the motorway and unable to take a break. It does not mean "some people will be late home." Staff were explaining that's why coaches were parked up (one at St Albans had also broken down) and seemed to be getting coaches turned round as quick as they could.

Arguably it would have been better PR to send coaches on breaks to "somewhere else" to take their statutory breaks, but this would have wasted driving time.

All the station / revenue staff seemed to be out there assisting passengers and providing what information they could, and the station staff seemed to be arranging taxis for people with journeys that couldn't easily be met by the coaches / passengers with disabilities.

The idea of an "all stations" replacement service is all very well, but the time it would take (especially in the evening peak) to go all the way into London, rather than feed to the nearest railhead on an line that's functioning, would be alarming. It would also mean either considerably more coaches to shift the same number of people (a coach could probably do 3 or 4 trips St Albans to Hatfield in the time it would take to get through to St Pancras.)

 

[ushawk]

yesterday evening no northbound trains called at Flitwick for more than one and a half hours. in that time you could have travelled from st pancras to Kentish town on the tube at least four times.

my suggestion for passengers wanting to go south from London is to have services to Brighton start and terminate at blackfriars.

in an ideal world fcc would be able to cope,but in reality it can't and it should give priority to running a service for passengers who have no alternative.

I've seen my season ticket price rise from around £1500 per year to over £4700 per year with no appreciable improvement in the service.

Then you will be causing problems to passengers South of London. The bigger flow is the Brighton/TL Core - Bedford route - like it or not thats what most people use so it would NEVER be stopped at Blackfriars, especially at 4tph as then you will have a drastically reduced service up the line.

All im getting from you is "my line is incredibly important because i live on it therefore i deserve a brilliant service, even if there is power supply problems".

Typical commuter mentality really, if i had a pound for every time ive had a commuter quote how much they pay then i could probably afford a London - Brighton yearly season 3 times over !! Funny how you dont mention the Thameslink work which has been going on and will result in more trains (whenever they are built that is).

 

[W230]

Typical commuter mentality really, if i had a pound for every time ive had a commuter quote how much they pay then i could probably afford a London - Brighton yearly season 3 times over !! Funny how you dont mention the Thameslink work which has been going on and will result in more trains (whenever they are built that is).

Spot on. If you don't like it then find another way to work. Invest that £4700 in a car/fuel/parking. Disruption happens and when you have major disruption to infrastructure that carries this level of service then it is going to have knock on effects.

I especially love the comments about FCC running short formed trains because they don't know what they're doing etc. There couldn't possibly be a reason for it could there? Maybe they made their contingency plan down the pub on the back of a fag packet.

I'm waiting for the "I think FCC are doing it deliberately..." cry.

 

[Dolive22]

I'm waiting for the "I think FCC are doing it deliberately..." cry.

Oh no they are doing it on purpose. They even laid on coaches and gave out advice just because they hate their customers.

 

[ushawk]

Spot on. If you don't like it then find another way to work. Invest that £4700 in a car/fuel/parking. Disruption happens and when you have major disruption to infrastructure that carries this level of service then it is going to have knock on effects.

I especially love the comments about FCC running short formed trains because they don't know what they're doing etc. There couldn't possibly be a reason for it could there? Maybe they made their contingency plan down the pub on the back of a fag packet.

I'm waiting for the "I think FCC are doing it deliberately..." cry.

Ive had it once where a person was hit by a train at Streatham Common, a commuter was moaning about the delays to me and said it was all an excuse - told him a person was hit by a train and they turned round and said "Well you deliberately did that". I suggested they make a complaint then if they believed that to be the case - truly staggering.

Yes, Southern do start pushing people in front of their own trains now to annoy their own passengers apparently !!

 

[SAPhil]

On the day after this event East Midlands rains were running a near normal service while FCC 's services were severely restricted. This seems a bit unfair to me - surely the pain should be spread out between all companies! Is it policy that the long distance services get priority over commuter services?

 

[Dolive22]

Ive had it once where a person was hit by a train at Streatham Common, a commuter was moaning about the delays to me and said it was all an excuse - told him a person was hit by a train and they turned round and said "Well you deliberately did that". I suggested they make a complaint then if they believed that to be the case - truly staggering.

Yes, Southern do start pushing people in front of their own trains now to annoy their own passengers apparently !!

Yes, they cooked that one up with DfT and ORR. I hope RAIB and BTP don't notice.

 

[ushawk]

On the day after this event East Midlands rains were running a near normal service while FCC 's services were severely restricted. This seems a bit unfair to me - surely the pain should be spread out between all companies! Is it policy that the long distance services get priority over commuter services?

Thats because EMT only use diesel trains and were able to use the fast lines. FCC couldnt use the fasts as there was no power to the OHLE, so were stuck on the slows.

Nothing got priority, its just you cant run electric trains with no electric !!

 

[A-driver]

On the day after this event East Midlands rains were running a near normal service while FCC 's services were severely restricted. This seems a bit unfair to me - surely the pain should be spread out between all companies! Is it policy that the long distance services get priority over commuter services?

It's far easier to put on busses a small distance between the TL and GN than to replace EMT with a bus over a far longer distance. Plus those who drive to stations on the TL had parking allowed at GN stations so it makes sense to restrict the shorter commuter trains in favour of the long distance services.