Passengers abandon train at Lewisham with 3rd rails still live.

[ComUtoR]

You're blaming the victims again here. It wasn't their fault, it was the railway's fault that it couldn't do the only thing its supposed to do - shift large volumes of people from one place to another based on a published timetable at a reasonable cost. It might also have been their unreasonable employers' fault too, by inferring/implying/threatening they'd lose something if they stayed at home.

How is saying what I would do victim blaming. ? I would not travel. There were warnings from the Met office and various warnings on news sites, various websites stating 'your rights when it snows' etc etc. Many places advised to only travel if essential. Various employers recommended working from home. So no, I would not travel.

In sutuations like this, it's all too easy for the TOC/NR to say "don't make any unnecessary journeys" but if you're on a minimum wage job or a zero hours contract or just have a really ****ty boss, making that journey to work might be the difference between having a job on Monday or not, or being able to pay for gas/electricity over the weekend. Of course, the governement could have declared the day/days as additional national holidays, then no-one would have had to travel, but don't forget this government is a Tory one and we've all got to work every hour available to (a) repay the national debt, (b) maintain shareholder value, (c) keep the fat cat employers in the manner to which they've become accustomed. So the average wage-slave employee doesn't really have the luxury of deciding not to travel just because the trains might be unable to cope.

Do you not think that we are also in the same situation ? The person up the pointy end of those trains you want to run is also someone who made an effort to get themselves into work so that the trains can run in the first place or have you conveniently forgotten that ? Can they do better ? Of bloody course.

Remember, it works both way too. The railway has a responsibility to its passengers and should be held accountable but passengers and others also need to accept responsibility for their actions. We ALL need to understand that this is just the state of play and problems like this will always happen regardless of any mitigation you put in place. That doesn't mean I am defending the TOCs and it shouldn't mean that the TOCs are automatically vilified every time something goes wrong. People want a miracle to happen and expect everything to be perfect and woe-betide a single problem on the railway.

Is there many many issues that need resolving and learning to be made from this. Of course, nobody is that ignorant to suggest otherwise. Not forgetting that the easiest solution to it will be to cancel everything. Simply prevent the situation from occurring in the first place. Annoyingly this is partially what actually happened. Many stations were not served and some routes completely cancelled in their entirety. The TOCs will take the easy way out and cancel more services next time. Personally I felt that running a skeleton service contributed to the numerous issues around the network.

Unless the entire 'Railway' work together to come up with sensible and effective solutions this will continue to reoccur.

 

[Chris M]

I know how dangerous third rail is (most people don't), I know how much disruption self evacuation causes (most people don't) yet I cannot fault someone for self-evacuating from a train within walking distance of a staffed station in a major urban area after an hour with no communication. Even if there had been communication, it would have been borderline understandable - after 90 minutes I couldn't have faulted them.
Simply put the railway is at fault for not starting to evacuate passengers from the train before it got to that point. You can make all the excuses about insufficient trained staff you like, but they are just excuses. The railway should have the staff to do this (TfL prove that it is possible) and it is entirely their fault if they don't.

 

[ComUtoR]

That wasn't the question. Are you a Tory MP by any chance?

Ahh the insults again. What makes me a Tory MP because I wouldn't travel ?

I know it might be difficult for you, but perhaps you'd can find the courage and decency to respond honestly to the question I asked.

It was an honest response. I would not travel. Is that not the response you required ?

 

[Taunton]

Just the same as regularly nowadays. Kentish Town. Pewsey. And others.

If the power is on they would have heat, light, and a working PA. The driver would have also been able to creep past the signal to platform at least part of the train.

If the power is already off what is the danger of "could have been killed".

If the PA fails, what is to stop the driver walking back trackside and shouting up to the passengers. JUST like used to happen with the guard in the old days.

The real stupidity is not the poor passengers, but the various managements who appear incapable of handling such events effectively.

 

[RT4038]

Ok just leave everything as it is and change nothing.?

All this hysteria will have one effect - ever increasing suspension of services for the slightest risk. Everybody in the transport industry is looking over their shoulder at lawyers / media wanting to blame them for incidents, asking why hasn't £££ been spent on ensuring 'safety' for every conceivable possibility? These kind of incidents have happened on the railway since trains first begun, and handled better or worse.. Don't kid yourself that things were better in the past - they weren't. Your government does not want to pay for more staff or equpment to deal with these one off situations: if written into any franchise a prospective toc would happily cost it up and include in the price!

 

[al78]

Don't kid yourself that things were better in the past - they weren't.

Really? I would have thought steam trains would be far more robust in snow.

 

[Dr Hoo]

A few years ago there was a lot of mention of conductor rail heating, at least in the vicinity of stations. I remember seeing quite a lot of installations in the South East. (I have since moved north, so visit rather less often these days.)

In the absence of any reports as to how it is functioning in the current conditions can anybody provide any information on whether conductor rail heating is still there and in use or has it all been abandoned/ burnt out/ can't get the spares/ banned on safety grounds/stolen for scrap/etc.?

 

[RT4038]

Really? I would have thought steam trains would be far more robust in snow.

They may have been, but the other infrastructure at the time was probably more fragile and vulnerable. I commend you read the post 'The General Managers Report' in the Railway History and Nostalgia thread, or watch the BTF 'Snowdrift at Bleath Gill on youtube. The last ever train on the GWR Launceston-Plymouth line (steam hauled) was marooned for several days.... There are plenty of other examples.

I'm not knocking what went on in the past, or now particularly - there is just much more instant media now to record every incident and blow people's inconvenience out of proportion.

 

[al78]

so how long is it acceptable to detain people on a train for? 4 hours? 12 hours? or can they be left to die of hypothermia or thirst?

stating that trespassing is wrong under all circumstances is absurd.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_bias

 

[Bromley boy]

I cannot fault someone for self-evacuating from a train within walking distance of a staffed station in a major urban area after an hour with no communication. Even if there had been communication, it would have been borderline understandable - after 90 minutes I couldn't have faulted them.

You’ll be in a tiny minority then. Thankfully most people have enough common sense not to do such a stupid and dangerous thing.

Unfortunately there is a selfish, idiotic “me me me” minority, particularly in south London, who can’t see beyond their own nose. I don’t doubt the first person to egress at Lewisham would have fitted into this category.

I was on an ECML train that was stranded for around an hour last week because of a fatality (in a semi-urban area near Hitchin station). Nobody on that train came close to egressing.

 

[The Box Photter]

You’ll be in a tiny minority then. Most people have enough common sense not to do such a stupid and dangerous thing.

Unfortunately there is a selfish, idiotic “me me me” minority, particularly in south London, who can’t see beyond their own nose. I don’t doubt the first person to egress at Lewisham would have fitted into this category.

I was on an ECML train that was stranded for around an hour last week because of a fatality (in a semi-urban area near Hitchin station). Nobody on that train came close to egressing.

- Presumably because the heating and lighting were still working and the toilets were operational (not to mention the availability of food from the buffet).

 

[Bromley boy]

- Presumably because the heating and lighting were still working and the toilets were operational

Just as they were on the first Lewisham train (the power was switched off after the egresses started).

 

[fusionblue]

The power was switched off because it was very close to the platforms at Lewisham. When the power was switched off, how far a zone did this cover?

And why didn't SET just immediately (after 45-60 minutes) start diverting trains from St Johns and other units from London towards Hither Green towards Sidcup, Orpington and Hayes just skipping Lewisham entirely. It may have been the wrong place, but it was *a* place. "Just keep moving" has to be a rule in there somewhere. It may cause a mess later on, but doing nothing (or seen to be doing nothing) can be a bigger problem itself.

 

[RT4038]

You’ll be in a tiny minority then. Thankfully most people have enough common sense not to do such a stupid and dangerous thing.

Unfortunately there is a selfish, idiotic “me me me” minority, particularly in south London, who can’t see beyond their own nose. I don’t doubt the first person to egress at Lewisham would have fitted into this category.

I was on an ECML train that was stranded for around an hour last week because of a fatality (in a semi-urban area near Hitchin station). Nobody on that train came close to egressing.

I think in the days of slam door stock this kind of thing happened more often than you may like to think about! For example, I refer you to Gerard Fiennes 'I tried to run a Railway' Chapter 5. 'Trains stood at every signal back to Mile End. After a decent interval, 7,000 customers alighted and walked to Liverpool Street, along all six lines'. There is a limit to customers patience.

 

[Bromley boy]

The power was switched off because it was very close to the platforms at Lewisham. When the power was switched off, how far a zone did this cover?

And why didn't SET just immediately (after 45-60 minutes) start diverting trains from St Johns and other units from London towards Hither Green towards Sidcup, Orpington and Hayes just skipping Lewisham entirely. It may have been the wrong place, but it was *a* place. "Just keep moving" has to be a rule in there somewhere. It may cause a mess later on, but doing nothing (or seen to be doing nothing) can be a bigger problem itself.

As I understand it the initial egress triggered an emergency GSMR broadcast which brought all other trains in the vicinity to a stand.

This delay then had a knock on effect of provoking further egresses from halted trains, including further up the mainline at north Kent east junction. The power switch off would have been extended to these areas and would have prevented any movement on the mainline, including “wrong road” movements back towards London Bridge.

“Just keep moving” isn't really in keeping with the railway’s safety culture. There’s no way trains would be allowed to continue to move with trespassers in the vicinity, even if they had power, which they didn’t.

 

[fusionblue]

As I understand it the initial egress triggered an emergency GSMR broadcast which brought all other trains in the vicinity to a stand.

This delay then had a knock on effect of provoking further egresses from halted trains, including further up the mainline at north Kent east junction. The power switch off would have been extended to these areas and would have prevented any movement on the mainline, including “wrong road” movements back towards London Bridge.

“Just keep moving” isn't really in keeping with the railway’s safety culture. There’s no way trains would be allowed to continue to move with trespassers in the vicinity, even if they had power, which they didn’t.

Thanks for clarifying. I didn't know how wide the power outage spread to, so that all makes sense.

 

[matt_world2004]

Looking at the picture, the train was crush loaded. While I don't condone the passeger detraining this way its not hard to see why they did.

 

[lyndhurst25]

For the toilet issue, couldn't a door be opened a few inches so male passengers could wee out. And for the females, maybe trains should carry a few of these in their emergency equipment boxes -

https://www.shewee.com/

 

[matt_world2004]

For the toilet issue, couldn't a door be opened a few inches so male passengers could wee out. And for the females, maybe trains should carry a few of these in their emergency equipment boxes -

www.sheewee.com

Weeing onto third rail is highly dangerous.

 

[theageofthetra]

You’ll be in a tiny minority then. Thankfully most people have enough common sense not to do such a stupid and dangerous thing.

Unfortunately there is a selfish, idiotic “me me me” minority, particularly in south London, who can’t see beyond their own nose. I don’t doubt the first person to egress at Lewisham would have fitted into this category.

I was on an ECML train that was stranded for around an hour last week because of a fatality (in a semi-urban area near Hitchin station). Nobody on that train came close to egressing.

Well noticed. Contrast the behaviour on the 375 to the 376 at Lewisham.

There was a very senior figure in the shipping industry who produced (I think after the Estonian ferry disaster in the 90's) a very respected paper on the behaviour of different socio- ethnic groups in a maritime disaster and how to best manage evacuations/briefings to minimise loss of life. The effects of alcohol were also a significant factor in survivability.

Post- Concordia all ships bars are shut until the safety briefing has been attended by all passengers. The only alcohol available -other than a welcome drink is that brought on sneakily by passengers.

The ship cannot now depart until that briefing has been done.



There will be many who find it unpalatable /un PC but who you are travelling with on a cruise ship or any passenger vessel has a significant effect on your survival chances and what subsequently happens in a panic situation.

It's relevant to rail as with a ship the environment you are evacuated or self evacuating into can be vastly more dangerous than the one you are leaving and obeying instructions offered by trained crew can greatly increase your survivability.

Unfortunately some groups will not respect orders and unfortunately particularly if that order comes from a female however senior and competent.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Weeing onto third rail is highly dangerous.

I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I suspect that's an urban myth. Now, what's the electrical resistsance of a 1 metre long continuous stream of human urine?..... Mind you, I wouldn't want to be the first person to try it!

 

[Class 170101]

Regarding the PA Fault isn't it a requirement of a DOO Train that the PA is working?

 

[Domh245]

Weeing onto third rail is highly dangerous.

I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I suspect that's an urban myth. Now, what's the electrical resistsance of a 1 metre long continuous stream of human urine?..... Mind you, I wouldn't want to be the first person to try it!

The Mythbusters did a piece on it. You'd have to be getting uncomfortably close to the rail before peeing on it had any effect.

 

[Chris M]

You’ll be in a tiny minority then.

Not based on the comments on this thread, comments on another forum and the actions of the people who were actually in that situation

Thankfully most people have enough common sense not to do such a stupid and dangerous thing.

As a railway worker/enthusiast your understanding of the dangers and perceptions of the relative risks of the railway environment are very different to the average passenger's. It's the average passenger's perception that matters in these circumstances.

Unfortunately there is a selfish, idiotic “me me me” minority, particularly in south London, who can’t see beyond their own nose. I don’t doubt the first person to egress at Lewisham would have fitted into this category.

I do not know who first egressed so I do not wish to say what their thought processes were but it is very likely that they would not know that their self-detraining would impact other trains. From what I gather there were no announcements being made and no other indication why they would have any reason to believe that they wouldn't be there overnight. What they did was dangerous, but as I understand the situation and the information available to them I'm not prepared to say it was stupid.

I was on an ECML train that was stranded for around an hour last week because of a fatality (in a semi-urban area near Hitchin station). Nobody on that train came close to egressing.

The time someone will wait will also be affected by the length of their journey - 1 hour on a 3 hour journey is a lot less significant than 1 hour on a 20 minute journey for example.
You also fail to mention anything about what information you were being given by the train crew, how far you were from the station, what the external circumstances were like, or pretty much any of the other factors I mentioned as affecting how long it will take up thread. I'm not familiar with the Hitchin area but "semi-urban" north Hertfordshire is not the same as urban inner London.

 

[amcluesent]

Are drivers really not told anything at all by the controllers for 90mins or more, or do they just choose not to inform pax?

 

[island]

It is said that the PA may have been defective on a number of units. Certainly, as a regular Southeastern user, I would say a quarter or so of the trains I travel on have inaudible or nonexistent announcements, with Networkers being worse than Electrostars.

 

[ComUtoR]

Are drivers really not told anything at all by the controllers for 90mins or more, or do they just choose not to inform pax?

By controller do you mean Signaler ? There are many occasions I have sat on a signal with no communication from the Signaler. SG - Wait is the norm. We have pushed for more General Broadcasts to be used but they are rarer than rocking horse poo.

From my 'control' ? Very much non existent. With GSMR 3.6 Our control can now contact us but again its rare. However this is a new system so time will tell what happens.

Getting communication to the Driver (at least from my perspective) has always been pretty much non existent.

 

[ianBR]

Being stranded on an ECML train where people have comfortable seats, heating, power and a buffet car is very different to being stranded on a packed, claustrophobic, commuter train with nowhere to move, freezing conditions, lack of any information, and old people forced to urinate over themselves.

It is disgraceful that station staff aren't trained to undertake rapid evacuations of trains that are within sight of a platform.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

As a Guard the more information I can receive the better and if that information is not forthcoming then I will keep trying to find out but the main factor is honesty. Passengers do not want generic answers they just want the truth and if that means that the Guard/Driver is attempting to get as much information and will inform the passengers as soon as he/she has it so be it. I have been involved in a few controlled evacuations where passengers have got shall we say a bit stressed and then I put pressure on my control to get the a line blockage so we could do a controlled evacuation. Looking at how close the unit was to the station I am shocked that they didn't. SouthEastern made a rod for their own back on this one looking at what evidence I can see. I have no idea what the driver was doing but it wasn't as if he was protecting the line or anything so i cannot see why he/she could not keep giving out updates over the PA or face to face.

All the Driver would have had to say was this was creating a very unsafe situation to their control and I am pretty certain a controlled evacuation would have taken place.

 

[Antman]

Regarding the PA Fault isn't it a requirement of a DOO Train that the PA is working?

As I understand it if the train has no power the PA can't be used?