Passengers detrain themselves in Bristol area (26/09)

[bramling]

Okay fine - the students messed up and their actions did not correlate with the reality of the situation. They could have suffered to a greater extent, but I maintain that my peers are not bad people and did not act in the way that they did out of malicious intent. Mistakes were made.

Maybe, but the best thing to do is learn from the mistakes, and never do the same thing again.

As well as endangering their own safety, they also delayed further those still on the train - and presumably the other train (perhaps also crowded?) was also delayed as a result of their actions.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To get away from the train and the situation?

If the industry doesn't begin to understand why people react like this in this situation, it'll continue to happen.

And the talk of students is just wibble. This isn't an isolated example. Passengers letting themselves off is a fairly regular occurrence on DOO services in south east London, and it isn't drunken students doing it there.

Normally after the train has been stuck for quite a few minutes. It's certainly not 'fairly regular' behaviour for passengers to decide they can't be bothered to wait for a few minutes at a signal stop.

 

[Cinc026]

I agree, learning from this is the most important outcome, ultimately.

The behaviour that resulted was the wrong behaviour for the situation, but it can be explained by reasons more significant than "drunk idiots being rebellious" or "arrogant students being disrespectful", which seems to have sufficed for some people. This is why I have gone out of why to try and explain the situation having witnessed it first-hand. But Bramling - it wasn't about not bothering! People had medical conditions on that train, which was why the doors were opened initially! Perhaps still wrong, but that is a lot more significant than flippant disregard for the situation

 

[bramling]

Also, would you rather them just stand cess-side, adjacent to the dangerous tracks (as has been observed so voraciously on this thread) indefinitely or use their initiative and make their way back to the safety of the station (walking cess-side as most did), escaping the situation and also finding their way home or another safer, more fool-proof yet more expensive route to their destination such as a cab?? Standing there like a lemon is not going to help anyone. Not necessarily the LAWFUL thing to do, but once they had got off the chaotic train you surely can't expect them to just stand there?

They shouldn't have been on the track at all.

 

[Cinc026]

They shouldn't have been on the track at all.

Technically cess

 

[bramling]

Technically cess

It's strange that you seem to be arguing that they were young, innocent and inexperienced when on board the train, yet somehow when they reached the track they became mature and sensible enough to safely find their way back to the station.

For trained staff, all the track area is counted as the track. Moving trains are not by any means the only hazard.

Had this been a 3rd-rail electric train, I'd suggest we would have seen injuries or worse.

 

[ComUtoR]

Also, would you rather them just stand cess-side, adjacent to the dangerous tracks

Yes they are dangerous. Which is why we don't want people randomly egressing from the train. It is also an unsafe drop from sole bar level. That too is also unsafe.

Knowing that it is inherently dangerous to be on the track would you then say that it is safer on or off the train ? My son is [redacted] and knows full well that it is unsafe.

indefinitely or use their initiative and make their way back to the safety of the station

I'm not sure how this is at all logical. Considering the safest place is on the train. The situation escalated from boarding. My initiative would have been to not board. Once on board and I'll readily accept that it is feasible that overcrowding wasn't expected. If I saw someone in distress my initiative is to both raise the alarm and also help the person.

, escaping the situation

But you are not escaping the situation. You are moving from one situation situation to another potentially worse one.

I understand your angry but what did you expect ? I understand that the railway also made mistakes but you fail to see that it was trying to prevent a potentially worse one. Decisions are not made lightly and are made for a reason and very much based on previous experience. You say that you write the rule book for your industry and no doubt you expect those to be followed. Yet quite often there is a belief that they are made to be broken and that people can do whatever they please and justify their actions after the proverbial has hit the proverbial. Where is the personal responsibility ?

We can all make up ludicrous scenarios and make them fit our viewpoint. The railway doesn't have the luxury of hindsight and has to make rules based on past experience and potential outcomes.

The main problem with a situation like this is that the solutions do not benefit the passenger and the ones that get proposed are shot down by the very people we are trying desperately to help. One of the posters in this thread often makes me question some industry behavior but he still fails to see that it needs to work in both directions. Passengers need to take responsibility for numerous issues they can cause.

One example is the problem which caused all of this. Overcrowding. yet it has already been posted that it is acceptable to cram as many people on the train as physically possible as its their seemingly god given right to board as long as there is space. When the TOC's try to control space on both the platform and on trains, all hell breaks lose. It's a no win situation for the TOC

Will this happen again ? No doubt. It is becoming more frequent because people are justifying their behavior and passing their personal responsibility off to others. What will inevitably happen is that someone will get hurt or even killed.

What I don't want is for people to get hurt. PLEASE DO NOT GO ON TO THE TRACKS

 

[Cinc026]

It's strange that you seem to be arguing that they were young, innocent and inexperienced when on board the train, yet somehow when they reached the track they became mature and sensible enough to safely find their way back to the station.

For trained staff, all the track area is counted as the track. Moving trains are not by any means the only hazard.

Had this been a 3rd-rail electric train, I'd suggest we would have seen injuries or worse.

I'm arguing that the panic was induced by the inexperience of many of the students in dealing with overcrowded trains, but when it comes to general safety the majority know that cess is safer for people having panic attacks induced by claustrophobia than a crowded train. My point isn't meant to justify the behaviour of those that jumped off afterwards, only those who had a valid medical condition. Fair enough and fair enough.

I'll say it again - the students made mistakes in their judgement. They shouldn't have panicked. Opening the doors made the situation worse. Again, all I'm asking for is a degree of understanding rather than unprecedented disdain in what was a horrible situation, having been there myself.

Yes - I'm sure all those who jumped onto the cess and were curtailed by officials have been informed by BTP and FGW that their behaviour was dangerous. I agree with you, of course the most important conclusion to draw from this is to ensure that it doesn't happen again

[A minor point - the TOC's didn't try to control space on either the platform or the train; perhaps this can be improved through better communication between all 3 parties in the future, should the festival take place next year following this incident]

 

[ComUtoR]

Technically cess

I thought that the average person was ignorant of the railway. You sound quite clued up.

 

[Cinc026]

I thought that the average person was ignorant of the railway. You sound quite clued up.

I am now - sometimes it takes incidents like this to learn. Sometimes you've got to learn the hard way I guess - had this not happened, I wouldn't know that the strip of land adjacent to the tracks is even called cess

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm arguing that the panic was induced by the inexperience of many of the students in dealing with overcrowded trains, but when it comes to general safety the majority know that cess is safer for people having panic attacks induced by claustrophobia than a crowded train.

No, it isn't. The safest place is on the train - even in some cases where you would think it wasn't, e.g. a minor fire.

 

[Cinc026]

No, it isn't. The safest place is on the train - even in some cases where you would think it wasn't, e.g. a minor fire.

I just keep learning today - fair enough. I would have thought that any fire on a train would call for evacuation given the speed at which they can spread (and sparks???), but good to know. Most people don't know much about trains lol

 

[Bletchleyite]

I just keep learning today - fair enough. I would have thought that any fire on a train would call for evacuation given the speed at which they can spread (and sparks???), but good to know. Most people don't know much about trains lol

It might well call for a controlled evacuation, but a train isn't a plane - any fire would spread slowly, whereas descending onto the track can result in people getting run over if done before the trains have been stopped. Moving to another coach may well suffice.

See (for example):
http://www.nrm.org.uk/~/media/Images/NRM/research/health-and-safety/HS-3-29.jpg

 

[Cinc026]

It might well call for a controlled evacuation, but a train isn't a plane - any fire would spread slowly, whereas descending onto the track can result in people getting run over if done before the trains have been stopped. Moving to another coach may well suffice.

See (for example):
http://www.nrm.org.uk/~/media/Images/NRM/research/health-and-safety/HS-3-29.jpg

Got it. Will pass the information on to ensure that everyone is aware of how dangerous what happened was [I still don't think everybody gets it yet]. I hope that at least in Bristol this situation won't happen again - eventually across the country.

 

[ComUtoR]

I just keep learning today - fair enough. I would have thought that any fire on a train would call for evacuation given the speed at which they can spread (and sparks???), but good to know. Most people don't know much about trains lol

They are built to be flame retardant. Most on train fires are from the bin. Train fires from the exterior are typically from electricals.

Pull the RED cord and alert the Driver then move away. Move to another coach as again gangway doors provide a relative safety barrier from a fire.

Pulling the red cord means that I am aware of the situation and can then bring the train to a point of safety where you can evac safely and assistance can gain access. I can also contact emergency services etc. I can also make a suitable announcement and ameliorate any panic.

What tends to happen is that passengers evac in the middle of nowhere and stand down the side of the train with cameras out taking selfies and filming it. :roll:

Of course the TOC is then blamed for inadequate procedures and poor treatment of passengers.

 

[455driver]

Pulling the cord on a 150 results in the brakes going into emergency resulting in a very quick stop, they are old so don't have the over-rides of modern stock.

 

[ComUtoR]

Pulling the cord on a 150 results in the brakes going into emergency resulting in a very quick stop, they are old so don't have the over-rides of modern stock.

Neither do 319's but I'd rather them pull one with communication than pulling and exiting. I do count myself lucky we can override.

First rule : Sound the alarm

 

[Tim R-T-C]

What if one of them died on the train?

Of what?

People have been stuck for hours on board stuffed trains and planes as mentioned above, no-one has died from overcrowding.

Plus, if there was a life threatening medical emergency then keeping the passenger on the train so that emergency services could get to them would make far more sense than letting them wonder off into a crowd.

 

[TUC]

I still think in the railway's approach to this there is too much of a tendency towards 'it doesn't matter if passengers get lost by being at the wrong station and something happens to one of them. As long as the risk is off our property we don't care'.

 

[bb21]

I think Cinc026 talks a lot of sense. It is all too easy to lose sight of the fact that not everyone understands the dangers of a live railway environment, not everyone has the common sense when needed, and not everyone knows how to remain calm in a difficult situation. There is always seomething that can be done better. How about better awareness programmes in school on top of what we already have, or don't have?

This event is days old and all the condemnation is getting pretty tiring. You've all had the chance to condemn the reckless and stupid behaviour so how about being positive for once and suggest some workable solutions to prevent this happening again, or is it a case of "sorry, no can do"?

 

[infobleep]

And they quite possibly will, BTP certainly seems to be making those sorts of noises. But whether they *should* or not they *did*. That's something the railway will need to look at for the future.

If passengers always did what they should do, the railway would be a whole lot easier to run.

If the BTP prosecute the students then I think they should go after the commuters who have detained in the recent years. I've not heard of then doing so yet though. I'm not talking about Kentish Town but other incidents that have occurred in the South East.

There's the YouTube video was a woman walking along beige a track in hi heals and that's in third rail land! Far more dangerous I suspect. Although all of it is very dangerous of course.

Students and commuters are both passengers on trains.

 

[bb21]

Considering what went on yesterday, I think Cinc026 made some very sensible and measured posts. All he is asking is a little more appreciation that things are not as black and white as some people seem to think, and he definitely was not trying to excuse the stupid behaviour as he acknowledged that himself several times. I think we all get that what happened should not have happened but it's happened, what are people really expecting to achieve by continued condemnation?

 

[ComUtoR]

This event is days old and all the condemnation is getting pretty tiring. You've all had the chance to condemn the reckless and stupid behaviour so how about being positive for once and suggest some workable solutions to prevent this happening again, or is it a case of "sorry, no can do"?

How about the condemnation of "the railway" and the ignorant belief that we just don't care and are always in the wrong.

A positive and workable solution was posted but as always it gets shut down because it has a negative affect on the passenger.

Overcrowding is NEVER gonna stop. The "railway" is bursting at the seams and some routes are at capacity and then some. The second you step on a crowded train then you become part of the problem. When you descend on a platform en mass like the picture posted you are part of the problem. But overcrowding is being blamed on the TOC :roll:

 

[plymothian]

That's because the solution always bandied about is 'never sell more tickets than capacity allows'; conveniently forgetting what happens when the people advocating this cannot travel for 3 weeks plus due to all the trains being sold out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This event is days old and all the condemnation is getting pretty tiring. You've all had the chance to condemn the reckless and stupid behaviour so how about being positive for once and suggest some workable solutions to prevent this happening again, or is it a case of "sorry, no can do"?

One workable solution, as I said, at the risk of a few extra delay minutes here and there, is for the presumption to be that trains will be held in stations with the doors released so far as physically possible in the event of a possible delay. ISTR it being stated a while ago (though not by whom!) that this was now the way the south WCML was operated so far as possible.

 

[bb21]

How about the condemnation of "the railway" and the ignorant belief that we just don't care and are always in the wrong.

What condemnation of the railway?

Barring a very small minority, and you will always get these small minorities in any discussion, we pretty much has consensus that what the students did were reckless, foolish, and illegal. I don't think that much is up for further debate. That is agreed - that the students involved had to take some of the responsibility, what proportion depending on one's individual perspective, themselves.

I think it has also been acknowledged by the vast majority of people that the railway cannot simply magic up some spare coaches from elsewhere, so it is not as easy as just "running a few more trains".

Sure there were some criticisms levied at FGW in this case for various things, but once explained many of these were acknowledged by most forum members as not really FGW's fault.

A positive and workable solution was posted but as always it gets shut down because it has a negative affect on the passenger.

Shut down? I must have missed it. You will need to remind me of that so I can have another look. I don't remember anything being shut down.

Overcrowding is NEVER gonna stop. The "railway" is bursting at the seams and some routes are at capacity and then some. The second you step on a crowded train then you become part of the problem. When you descend on a platform en mass like the picture posted you are part of the problem. But overcrowding is being blamed on the TOC :roll:

I think you are completely missing the point of what I was saying. Sure this incident happened, granted there was not much FGW could have done in terms of capacity enhancement (I don't know for sure but let's assume for a moment that the 2-car 150 was indeed all they had), and perhaps FGW did nothing wrong in the whole incident (just for argument's sake, whether they did is really not very important), isn't there something that can be done in the future to help reduce the likelihood of this happening again? Have we learned anything from this incident?

Perhaps we identified in the aftermath of this incident that awareness amongst young people as to what to do in a crowded environment may be lacking, so what sort of educational programme can be put in place to raise the level of awareness? Perhaps awareness of the appropriate actions to take in relation to panic attacks and other medical emergencies in those environments were lacking, what can we do to rectify this? Perhaps there is more that can be done to improve ventilation, can we do anything about it? Some things no one can do much about, for example, the issue of drawing an overcrowded train up to the signal away from the platform when the signal is not clear attracted some discussion, and I think 455driver pointed out that it may not always be possible to do so for the reasons he gave, and that's fine. Not much can be done in the short term about it, but perhaps something to consider for the longer term should the line come up for resignalling, for example.

You say that a workable solution was offered upthread so if I missed it you will have to excuse me as I have read so much stuff in these threads in the last few days. Great, I'm glad to hear about that, maybe put it into practice next time. Is it a solution that requires passengers to change their habits? If so, are there contingency plans in place if the passengers don't change their habits (because I can bet anything there will be a significant number who will not change their long-established habits)?

The message I am trying to get through is that it is better to discuss the positive things that can be done to help improve the situation for everyone concerned, passengers and the industry, in the aftermath of such an unfortunate incident. Not much is going to be achieved by finger-pointing and just continually criticising those who were at fault. Yes, we do need to investigate the matter thoroughly in order to learn where it all went wrong, but once we get past this stage, further finger-pointing is not going to do anyone any good. We may not be able to come up with a magic solution, but focusing on the positives and what can be done is much more satisfying than finger-pointing and blame-portioning (and for that I include some people from both sides). It is tedious and unnecessary.

 

[reb0118]

They didn't when I signed them - the breaks just come on.

So do the brakes!

Them's the breaks.

 

[swj99]

Need to make it clear that the situation was unacceptable but the actions of the passengers was also unacceptable.

Lots of things are unacceptable, but they still happen. Complaining about passengers getting off a stranded, broken down or otherwise immobile train is like objecting to getting wet on a beach when the tide comes in. It's still going to happen anyway.

People getting off a train that isn't in a station is often the symptom of a serious problem.

If the train had been as overcrowded as has been alleged, I'd question the wisdom of a decision for it to leave a station.

Sounds like a right bunch of idiots on the train.......

I'd have thought it just as inappropriate to call train passengers idiots as it would be to call railway staff idiots.

......
I don't see anyone calling your peers "thugs", but their trespass on a railway line is criminal trespass.......

A person is only guilty of criminal trespass if they plead guilty or are found guilty by a court.

It's a fact that people behave and react according to their perception of a situation. If a person perceives that they are stuck on a train that's going nowhere, they will act accordingly, and there have been numerous cases over the last few years when this has resulted in people getting off trains. We can discuss the safety implications of this until three weeks next pancake tuesday, but it won't change the fact that this is what happens when certain situations arise. And no matter how many people complain or say how terrible these people are for doing it, it's going to happen anyway. Surely it would be more constructive to look for ways to reduce the risk of incidents such as this happening, rather than resorting to name calling.

To get away from the train and the situation?

If the industry doesn't begin to understand why people react like this in this situation, it'll continue to happen.

And the talk of students is just wibble. This isn't an isolated example. Passengers letting themselves off is a fairly regular occurrence on DOO services in south east London, and it isn't drunken students doing it there.

Exactly. I was in the process of saying something similar.

People getting off a train in an emergency is not trespass. Anyone charged in a situation like that should get legal advice and plead not guilty.

Of what?

People have been stuck for hours on board stuffed trains...........

And therein lies the problem. People are aware of the potential for problems when a train makes an unusual or unscheduled stop, particularly if they don't know why, and I suspect many of these incidents may result at least partly from a self fulfilling prophesy. A train which has broken down may very well be stuck there for hours, or it may be ten minutes. But the problem is that due to several incidents in recent years where people have been stuck on trains in very unsatisfactory circumstances, sometimes for several hours, there is a perception that train operating companies aren't competent to deal with such situations, and people eventually take whatever action they deem appropriate at the time. And before anyone jumps in to say but it's not appropriate to get off a train that isn't at a platform, that's not the point. The point is this. Train operating companies have been slow to acknowledge that there is a problem, and more and more people now are not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. The Office of Rail Regulation is aware of the problem, and in fact prosecuted FCC back in 2013 after finding that it had not adequately planned its response to deal with stranded trains.

On a lighter note, here's Arthur Daley making an unscheduled departure from the Orient Express. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0d2orUFZQQ

 

[Robertj21a]

People getting off a train in an emergency is not trespass. Anyone charged in a situation like that should get legal advice and plead not guilty.


And therein lies the problem. People are aware of the potential for problems when a train makes an unusual or unscheduled stop, particularly if they don't know why, and I suspect many of these incidents may result at least partly from a self fulfilling prophesy. A train which has broken down may very well be stuck there for hours, or it may be ten minutes. But the problem is that due to several incidents in recent years where people have been stuck on trains in very unsatisfactory circumstances, sometimes for several hours, there is a perception that train operating companies aren't competent to deal with such situations, and people eventually take whatever action they deem appropriate at the time. And before anyone jumps in to say but it's not appropriate to get off a train that isn't at a platform, that's not the point. The point is this. Train operating companies have been slow to acknowledge that there is a problem, and more and more people now are not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. The Office of Rail Regulation is aware of the problem, and in fact prosecuted FCC back in 2013 after finding that it had not adequately planned its response to deal with stranded trains.

Excellent - well said.

 

[ooo]

That's because the solution always bandied about is 'never sell more tickets than capacity allows'; conveniently forgetting what happens when the people advocating this cannot travel for 3 weeks plus due to all the trains being sold out.

Excellent Point

 

[455driver]

How was this an emergency though?

Okay the train was full but the pictures I have seen show more space available than on the trains I used to take up to Waterloo, now they were full to the point that nobody else was able to board, nobody detained just because we stopped at a signal for 10 minutes there!