Passengers Must Not Cross The Line, There Is No Line

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by northernrail, 7 Nov 2011.

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  1. northernrail

    northernrail Member

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    Hi,
    While waiting for a special to leave Manchester Victoria On Saturday there was several photographers stood behind the "Do Not Cross The Line" sign, a BTP Officer came along and told them to move, one photographer wasnt happy with this and broke into a minor argument with the officer because there wasnt a line painted on the platform, several times did the photographer point to the track and say "Thats The Line" and tell the officer that the sign needs rewording because he hasnt passed a line.
    If there isnt a line painted on the platform should the sign be reworded, does the officer have a leg to stand for or was the photographer in the wrong?
     
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  3. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    I generally assume the line to be the platform / land beyond the sign...

    Yet more photters standing on the ramps / trackside...?
     
  4. northernrail

    northernrail Member

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    When the BTP Offier came over. there was no one on the ramp, still on the flat but beyond the sign.
     
  5. raildude

    raildude Member

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    He commits an offence if he does not follow the BTP Officer's instructions:

     
  6. Schnellzug

    Schnellzug Established Member

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    I'd have taken it as meaning "don't cross the track".
     
  7. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk Established Member

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    It depends, it is a bit ambiguous I'll admit. However, people should not go down the ramps at all, and if a policeman asks you to move they've generally got a good reason!
     
  8. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    There's one at Hale saying "Do not cross the line" then underneath says "Except by means of footbridge"

    However, in the case of Hale there's a level crossing at the other end of the platform which is a perfectly acceptable place to cross the track, in addition to the footbridge.
     
  9. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    The signs generally used to say 'passengers must not cross the line' for a long time before painted white lines became normal practice everywhere.

    I'd definitely go with line meaning the track.
     
  10. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    The BTP were in the right here, since they have a right to request people standing on a platform to move if they see fit. The 'photter in this case was doing nothing to help himself or the hobby in general. We hear much perfectly justified complaint about BTP or rail staff telling people that they cannot photograph and must leave the station after destroying their pics, etc, which is of course complete crap on the part of the railway. But this is the flip-side of that argument, and what the BTP all-too-often have to put up with from people who really should know better. If you're being accommodated on railway property, for God's sake be agreeable with the authorities and don't go out of your way to upset them!

    The sign is worded badly, and 'line' could mean either the track itself or simply that point of the platform, you could probably debate which is correct all night long! But they were clearly close to the end of the platform, and unfortunately that is one of the rebel 'photter problem areas, as they slowly creep further and further down the slope until they are well and truly in the wrong place. Seen it far too may times :roll:
     
    Last edited: 11 Nov 2011
  11. Railcar B

    Railcar B Member

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    On the subject of ambiguous notices, try this one:-

    At a public foot-crossing on the (single track) Princes Risborough - Aylesbury line is a notice "STOP LOOK LISTEN Trains Pass in Both Directions on Both Lines".
     
  12. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

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    Well I wouldn't go with 'track', say you are standing directly next to the track (an inch or less away) and a HST comes rumbling past, you haven't actually crossed the 'track' have you?

    Admittedly the slightly more ambiguous 'trespassing on the railway' would probably apply in this case, just as it might also apply in the case in the OP.

    Didn't we have this 'line' vs 'track' debate a little while ago?
     
  13. Temple Meads

    Temple Meads Established Member

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    Bit of a grey area this, I don't want to pass a sign which says "Passengers Must Not Pass This Point", but as to "Passengers Must Not Cross The Line, I'm not so sure, I take it to mean the track, rather than the point of the sign, and of course you can always point out that confusion if you're told off for "tresspassing", so if it was for a picture of a rare sighting, that couldn't be got into full view otherwise, I would pass the sign.
    However if I was told to move along away, after taking my picture, that's fine by me, though I wouldn't take kindly to being told to delete the picture in question.
     
  14. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    I would most definitely concur with you on this point. I have studied railway history in some depth and the "line" is reference to the "running line of the railway".
     
  15. wintonian

    wintonian Established Member

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    Last edited: 8 Nov 2011
  16. district

    district Member

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    It's so irritating to see at a steam event photographers trying to push or sneak past the steward guarding the platform end. It really, really doesn't help our case.

    And arguing with the BTP.... oh dear.
     
  17. northernrail

    northernrail Member

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    In This Case there was no Steward.
     
  18. BestWestern

    BestWestern Established Member

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    That's very funny, made me laugh out loud :D
     
  19. eMeS

    eMeS Member

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    Whilst on this subject, what's the official name for the black, pointy, rubbery(?) things sited at the ends of platforms and presumably there to stop passengers going down the ramp?
     
  20. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Anti-trespass guards.

    I think some photters think they are to help keep a tripod steady though. :roll:
     
  21. cuccir

    cuccir Established Member

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    Agreed, an ambiguous sign doesn't make it correct to argue with the BTP if they ask you to move. Of course, some people just don't like being told.

    I saw a similar sign when changing at Retford on Saturday and it made me laugh: did the sign writer think that someone, on seeing the sign, would think "well, that's me stuck on this side of the East Coast Mainline for ever?"
     
  22. Old Timer

    Old Timer Established Member

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    The old BR signs originally instructed not to cross the line - meaning the railway line. Later on in the 90s when it was felt necessary to actually demark the end of a platform, some stations had a line painted at the top of the ramp and the sign was replaced with a "Do not pass (beyond / cross) the line" meaning the white line.

    There is of course the sign which instructs no-one is to pass the sign itself as shown in post 17.
     
  23. Speedbird2639

    Speedbird2639 Member

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    I think the trouble is that most people perceive a BTP Officer as being somewhere between a park keeper and a traffic warden in terms of their available authority - now we all know that is not the case and they have the same powers as the 'normal' Police. Some fotogs generally seem to believe that their photo is more important than and above the Law anyway so it will always be a point of potential conflict with the BTP doing his job and trying to ensure everyone is in a safe position and the fotog believing he is being victimised by a jobs worth who has a Napoleon complex and cldnt get into the 'real' Police.

    Personally I wldnt argue with an instruction given by a railway worker/ BTP even if I believe they were wrong as you are just likely to get yourself ejected from the station and possibly worse if you decide to labour the point.

    Do these fotogs ever ride behind the engines they are so obsessed with taking pictures of? According to most reports the vast majority of them just seem to turn up, park their car in an incodsiderate manner, trespass onto someones private land to get the shot they want and then leave by walking down the track to their car, all the while moaning abt how their shot was ruined by some one else having the nerve to want to photograph the same train from the same location - or am I being unfair?
     
  24. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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  25. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    Yes, but hopefully they'll have the sense to touch no rail at all ;)
     
  26. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

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    In that case, why bother to display that particular sign?
     
  27. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    Because it might inspire people who don't know which rail is live to avoid all of them. Maybe it could be deliberately unclear?
     
  28. Temple Meads

    Temple Meads Established Member

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    Probably not very clever to touch the unlive rails either :lol:
     
  29. Badger

    Badger Member

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    While I'm in the "they should know better" camp,

    "Passengers must not pass this point or cross the line or walk a bit"
    ^
    Is a photographer a passenger if they aren't on a train? At what point are you a passenger? Are people seeing off relatives fine to cross it? :)
     
  30. O L Leigh

    O L Leigh Established Member

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    Because there is a clear risk of electrocution that the bovine herd needs to be warned about.

    The other point is that unless you have business with the railway, i.e. a ticket holder, you are on private property. If you have no business there you are a trespasser wherever you stand.

    O L Leigh
     
  31. Hydro

    Hydro Established Member

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    Good idea, they can be very dirty.
     
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