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Past TOCs vs Present ones
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I don't miss Central Trains as an operator, but the franchise offered far greater choices of routes than those now offered by LM/EMT - e.g. Lincoln to Birmingham. The one disadvantage was of course that delays somewhere in the West Midlands could then impact services in the East Midlands, as the units working across were delayed.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Post 16
. But not missing the management of national express. Emt management running CT would be better.A former WAGN passenger here, on the GN side.
It always seemed to work reasonably well - communication was good, fare rises were minimal, things just ticked over. But then, they did very little in the way of improvements, and the train cleaning was appalling.
FCC have been a mixed bag. The fare rises have been outrageous, and they're an utter shambles when things go wrong (although they're slowly getting better at that, finally...) Some of their revenue protection staff need a good talking to, too. And I don't think they've raised their voice loudly enough to ensure commuters (and not just long-distance passengers) were properly considered in the KX redesign.
OTOH... They've done a lot about overcrowding and the state of the trains, with cascaded stock (which I don't particularly like, but beggars/choosers and all that), clever timetable changes, full train usage surveys and the much maligned evening peak restrictions (which are very good from a commuter's POV). The GroupSave and Super Off-Peak tickets are very welcome, too. And the RPIs, for all the faults of some within their ranks, have certainly seen off some of the worst anti-social behaviour.
My former commute was on SWT, back when slam door stock was still common. I must admit that I do miss it in some ways, but decades of ground-in dirt was not one of the ways...
It always seemed to work reasonably well - communication was good, fare rises were minimal, things just ticked over. But then, they did very little in the way of improvements, and the train cleaning was appalling.
FCC have been a mixed bag. The fare rises have been outrageous, and they're an utter shambles when things go wrong (although they're slowly getting better at that, finally...) Some of their revenue protection staff need a good talking to, too. And I don't think they've raised their voice loudly enough to ensure commuters (and not just long-distance passengers) were properly considered in the KX redesign.
OTOH... They've done a lot about overcrowding and the state of the trains, with cascaded stock (which I don't particularly like, but beggars/choosers and all that), clever timetable changes, full train usage surveys and the much maligned evening peak restrictions (which are very good from a commuter's POV). The GroupSave and Super Off-Peak tickets are very welcome, too. And the RPIs, for all the faults of some within their ranks, have certainly seen off some of the worst anti-social behaviour.
My former commute was on SWT, back when slam door stock was still common. I must admit that I do miss it in some ways, but decades of ground-in dirt was not one of the ways...
Failed Unit
Established Member
But at least you were on the train, rather than having to wait an hour at Nottingham the get a taxi from Lincoln. A 15 minute delay soon turns into 2 hours with missed connections!
I miss being able to get on the Train and going to Cardiff for the day.. Also the £3 Grimsby-Lincoln fare was good used that gawd knows how many times.
sprinterguy
Established Member
It all comes down to personal preference of course, but I really liked the cream/brown GNER HST interior style that arose from the initial refresh/refurb when GNER got the franchise. The 225 interiors were appallingly shabby in the early days of the franchise, but that would be down to BRs' specification for the interior, and GNER did then instigate the absolutely superb Mallard refurbishment to replace those woe begone interiors.
Tomonthetrain
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I miss nx on snow Hill lines - the direct Stourbridge - New Street services, 153s on the town branch. those were the days!
Had central trains been kept, i wonder if they'd do a Daysaver ticket (whole network £10? Would make for interesting mileage accumulation!!)
Had central trains been kept, i wonder if they'd do a Daysaver ticket (whole network £10? Would make for interesting mileage accumulation!!)
DarloRich
Veteran Member
I was talking about our Germanic friends at XC not BR.
Schnellzug
Established Member
Well, Virgin introduced the Voyagers; then Arriva were given the franchise; and then DB bought Arriva, so I'm not sure how much the blame for XC rolling stock can be laid on DB. :-/
I agree, I don't get why some people have started referring to the TOC as DB CrossCountry, Arriva might be owned by DB by their shareholding but it's the same old Arriva we all know and love/hate running the service. I don't think the management changed at XC and the strategy is the same.
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As for former TOCs, I don't remember First North Western being significantly better than Northern, probably worse in some respects, but I was disappointed when Northern was allocated the longer distance ex-ATN Blackpool North - York service over First TPE. That's because it seemed a downgrade with the loss of catering service and the less suitable stock that began turning up every so often.
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I don't know why they chose a harder design of seat as well (more similar to the CEP refurb of the late seventies). The bouncier Mk 3 version would have been preferable.
SprinterMan
Established Member
I fully agree with this, in fact I think I said it in the 'Unpopular Opinions' thread. Its a case of "the grass is always greener on the other side". People forget how bad things were under Virgin, the overcrowding and reliability problems. Look on the bright side, we have a more reliable service now, more seats on the voyagers, and we have HSTs back! XC is probably the best now it has been ever. It's still not great, but it never has been.
Yeah, their Grimsby-Aberystwyth trains were truly something to behold. That was a long time to be on a 156 for. :P
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sprinterguy
Established Member
More seats than what?
hock: But yes, they have managed to hem in an additional fourteen seats into a 220 and an additional 16 into a 221, but that still only means that their interior layout and design is only anything other than appalling when compared to their former selves. 
I will, however, say that I am very much a fan of how reliable the Crosscountry network is now, and that Arriva XC have actually done a lot of good within the confines of what they can do by adding extra seats to the Voyagers and bringing back a small number of HSTs, for which I am very thankful. The trains are now much cleaner than they were in the pre-Voyager days (Although that is so often the case when an old fleet gets run down prior to the introduction of a fleet of shiny new trains), and the standard of service is far more consistent than ever it used to be.
Their major problem is that they are very much hamstrung by the inadequate rolling stock they inherited from Virgin, which means that XC still strike me as a cinderella operation from a passenger amenities point of view, which is where they disappoint me most. Not that it is likely to be a concern to the majority of passengers over the positive aspects that I have outlined above.
Failed Unit
Established Member
A 3 car 170 has more seats than a 4 car 220. 
sprinterguy
Established Member
It's always useful to have that little factoid to handA 3 car 170 has more seats than a 4 car 220.
Poor Voyagers, they don't really help themselves when it comes to abusing them!A 3 car 170 has more seats than a 4 car 220.
They've also got less luggage and cycle storage, trolley-only catering and are 25mph slower at flat out (not that this is such an issue on much of the XC route network). I dare say the 220 will likely outsprint the 170 though to 100mph...
That said, I don't mind 170s. Two car ones are almost all too short though, and some could potentially do with being permanent 4, 5 or 6 car formations- I reckon Scotrail's E-G operation would go well as 6-car single units, and their Edinburgh/Glasgow to Inverness/Aberdeen as 5-car units with improved catering. XC as 4 or 5 car as well- I appreciate there is an issue in that with Stansted.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Trolley only - so is the voyager to the vast majority of people.
To defend the voyager - they learnt and corrected and made the 222.
To defend the voyager - they learnt and corrected and made the 222.
Schnellzug
Established Member
The performance of a Voyager would be pretty useful on the Highland line, or the Cambrian, that's for sure...
The range of routes Central offered were far better than todays. EG Coventry - Nottingham used to be a through service. It now involves two changes and three TOC's. Its a shame the DFT didn't choose one operator for local services, east and west and a separate operator for the XC routes and London services IMO
My opinion on the Cambrian (unless you terminate the Cambrian coast trains at Machynlleth, which I doubt would be a good idea) is that the only choice better than the 158s they got would have been 159s. An extra coach in each unit, and a few more horsepowers under each one to cut journey times a bit. Maybe the best thing would be a 159 for one portion and one of the 400hp per coach 2-car 158s for the other portion (so 5 coaches between Machynlleth and Shrewsbury, rather than 6 if it was all 159s).
My rail-illiterate brother used the Cardiff - Nottingham once and reported that 'the doors were in the wrong place'. That service should have regional express units, maybe even Intercity units (Voyagers), not 170s. I can't say I ever been to Scotland, but I think Edinburgh/Glasgow - Aberdeen/Inverness is too far for trains with an outer-suburban door layout (eg. 170s) and unless the stopping pattern is quite heavy I'd expect Edinburgh - Glasgow to also be a poor route for outer-suburban stock.
Why is there a Birmingham - Stansted service? Would giving XC a Birmingham - Lincon service (just picking something sombody mentioned they miss) instead be more sensible?
Failed Unit
Established Member
I would love nottingham - Lincoln to go over to XC and be extended to Birmingham.
Edinburgh - Glasgow is better with 170s. I have done the route with both 170s and 158s and the dwell is much better with the 170s. The route is frequent stop with lots of passengers. Not sure which is better on the longer routes, having done both recently I think i preferred the 158. (although 1st class passengers were probably a bit miffed)
To me the biggest problem on the 170 is no corridor connection.
Edinburgh - Glasgow is better with 170s. I have done the route with both 170s and 158s and the dwell is much better with the 170s. The route is frequent stop with lots of passengers. Not sure which is better on the longer routes, having done both recently I think i preferred the 158. (although 1st class passengers were probably a bit miffed)
To me the biggest problem on the 170 is no corridor connection.
Agreed. Ideally a fast service calling at Newark and Lincoln only, with EMT providing Lincoln to Nottingham stoppers. Straying into fantasy land here though, pathing over the flat crossing would likely put paid to such ideas.
The other thing with Central, of course, was that you got a greater mix of stock at Lincoln and Nottingham - which for me as an enthusiast made for more variety. Of course that also caused problems when the wrong unit turned up and was expected to work a service over a line it wasn't cleared on - I seem to remember reports of this nature, anyway.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I would settle for Newark - Nottingham local to avoid the flat crossing, then have some stop at Collingham and Hykeham (every other hour) and others just Newark castle. I suspect that the thurgarton - lincoln mob will be upset with having to change
I remember single 153s often turning up, and causing choas. I once raced a train between Northgate and Castle and won (at walking pace). The gaurd wasnt surprised.
I remember single 153s often turning up, and causing choas. I once raced a train between Northgate and Castle and won (at walking pace). The gaurd wasnt surprised.
sprinterguy
Established Member
It was originally a Liverpool Lime Street to Stansted via Birmingham service, although I do not know whether this was originally part of the Regional Railways Midland Express network or whether it was a Central Trains concoction. I suspect the former, but I don't know for sure.
I would be rather nonplussed with a Birmingham to Lincoln service that takes the extra time of going via Leicester (What else would fill the gap left by removing the hourly longer distance service from the Birmingham to Leicester route?). I think that it's a real shame that with the breaking up of the Central Trains network we lost the Birmingham to Lincoln service, as I certainly feel that it would be a very useful service to have, but it should certainly run via the more direct route through Derby.
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I really like the 170s. There probably is a good argument for employing more Intercity style stock on what are pretty long distance regional routes between major cities, such as Cardiff to Birmingham & Nottingham and particularly the Scottish domestic services between Edinburgh/Glasgow and Aberdeen/Inverness. I especially feel that this should be the case for the Scottish domestic routes, but at the same time I can't find any sort of argument to vindicate this opinion: The 170s are very good trains IMO for long regional journeys, and I'm quite happy to spend a fairly substantial amount of time on them.
I've travelled on Turbostars on the vast majority of routes that they operate for Chiltern, Crosscountry, London Midland and Scotrail, and in all instances I've been very satisifed with my journey, except perhaps for the smaller 2-carriage units used on Birmingham to Leicester and Stansted being insufficient for the passenger demand at seemingly most times of the day.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
The current incumbent ways gets the blame
Eagle
Established Member
The current incumbent ways gets the blame
In that case can I blame Pacers on Abellio?
tsr
Established Member
No. An exception applies with Pacers, as they were hand-crafted by the Devil. Abellio can just about be excused blame for such things.
Doubtless somebody will turn up quoting Condition 45 of the NRCoC, though, which in some obscure RailUK sort of way probably proves me wrong.
I wonder if you could bolt the undersides of a 220 (regeared to 100, maybe 110, max) to the body of a 170? Add vestibule doors (as found on 1st class sections) throughout and have longer formations and you'd have a cracking inter-regional unit
Why would you do that? Just order a fleet of 158s with 175 interiors (but softer seats) or 175s with softer seats and the corridor-fitted ends of a 158/377 instead of 175-style slab ends. Maybe a mix of 3-car and 4-car sets rather than 2-car and 3-car sets as the orriginal 175 order was.
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