Penalty for expired railcard

[dan_atki]

A completely random and bizarre question entered my head earlier (admittedly ever so slightly off topic). What happens when you wish to purchase a railcard at a station with no (open) ticket office immediately prior to travelling on the railcard?

Do you buy a full priced ticket on board and use the 34% as credit to your railcard at the interchange/destination? Or something else? What about if there is no interchange on the journey or no open ticket office at the destination nor one in the local area?

What about if you are in a penalty fare area and there are not guards on board (FCC springs to mind)? Are you expected to buy a full priced ticket from a machine before boarding should one exist?

 

[glynn80]

A completely random and bizarre question entered my head earlier (admittedly ever so slightly off topic). What happens when you wish to purchase a railcard at a station with no (open) ticket office immediately prior to travelling on the railcard?

I can't seem to find the particular rule that states this but IIRC it is the customer's responsibility to purchase a Railcard before travelling if they wish to recieve that discount.

If they're local station does not have a ticket office they can either purchase it over the Railcard internet site or via a Telesales office.

 

[blacknight]

blacknight - Will you please learn to punctuate properly and form coherent sentences? You may well be making some excellent points, but it's so difficult to read your posts, I've given up trying to wade through them.

Is it because I never went to grammar school, I have tidy up last post feel free to mark it.

 

[dan_atki]

I can't seem to find the particular rule that states this but IIRC it is the customer's responsibility to purchase a Railcard before travelling if they wish to recieve that discount.

If they're local station does not have a ticket office they can either purchase it over the Railcard internet site or via a Telesales office.

What about a ticket office having an unexpected closure through illness etc? I.E. I could walk down the road to my local at 1000 tomorrow when the ticket office should be open and wish to buy a railcard. I arrive to find it's closed.

Based on what you say, I'm guessing it would be a full priced single (or return if less than undisc single + disc single) for my journey then? I'm also guessing that after this I'd still have to pay the full amount for the railcard and get no refund for the 34% extra I'd have paid as a result?

 

[clagmonster]

As far as I am aware, the only retail points for a railcard are the website and a staffed booking office. For the internet, even for renewals, you need either a passport or driving licence number, which I, and I suspect many other railcard users, do not have, therefore leaving stations as the only source. If in the case of a ticket office being closed, I suspect that you would have to purchase a full fare ticket. But if you had already purchased a ticket, say over the internet with the discount on the premise of the ticket office being open, then I am not sure what would happen. On the train the guard/TTI couldn't excess the ticket, they would have to issue a new one. I suspect it would be a case of get a refund at a later date at best.

 

[dan_atki]

I suspect it would be a case of get a refund at a later date at best.

And assumedly with an admin fee... I personally don't think that's fair on passengers 'look, our ticket office was shut when you wanted a railcard, have a £5/£10 fine '.

 

[A60K]

I would expect the National Conditions of Carriage, paragraph 3 to apply, in spirit if not strictly according to the exact wording (it refers only to tickets, not specifically railcards):

"3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because
the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start
your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel
that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is
reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these
circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had
bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will
be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel."

 

[thelem]

In my "opinion", with a 6 week out of date Railcard which was used on both outward and return portions where the OP must have looked at his ticket wallet on numerous occasions when buying his ticket, putting it in his ticket wallet showing it many times etc., that to me proves that he is likely to of known it was out of date but still decided to use the Railcard thus proving intent, especially considering he used the TVMs at Bristol as opposed to one of the ticket windows.

Ah, now I understand why people are considering 6 weeks much worse than a few days. I keep my both my railcard and my ticket in my wallet, so I wouldn't have looked at my railcard when I bought the ticket (with hindsight it would have been a good idea to double check the date). I don't trust the plastic wallets that you get given because, in my experience, they are too easy to lose.

When I get it out for a ticket barrier or guard I look at it long enough to identify that it is my railcard, then I go back to doing whatever I was doing (struggling with luggage, reading my book etc).

From a guard's perspective there is normally one job for each customer - to check that their ticket is valid. When the task is so focused an error like a 6 week out of date railcard may seem unmissable (although the guard on the outbound leg missed it). But as a passenger who is more interested in their book than their ticket, it might be quite easy to miss.

Regarding the month being really obvious, the railcard expired in MAR, and I was travelling in MAY, so the difference between it and a valid railcard was one letter.

As for vending machines - they are faster than waiting in the queue at the ticket office. If they are being used to purchase invalid YP tickets then the vending machines need to be changed (or not sell discounted tickets), rather that automatically assuming the customer was trying to commit fraud.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as I am aware, the only retail points for a railcard are the website and a staffed booking office. For the internet, even for renewals, you need either a passport or driving licence number, which I, and I suspect many other railcard users, do not have, therefore leaving stations as the only source.

You don't need them for renewals on internet-purchsed railcards. When I did mine all the asked for was my payment card details. I also expect the majority of railcard applicants would have a passport or driving licence, either for going abroad, driving (even if provisional) or getting into pubs. There will be a few without though.

 

[clagmonster]

Would it be possible for ticket barriers to recognise railcard discounted tickets, and then ask for the railcard to be fed through before letting the passenger through. Obviously the photocard wouldn't be checked, but it would still be a more effective method of checking.
As for the OP, yes I do think the penalty is rather harsh is some cases, but you and you alone are responsible for checking that your railcard and tickets are valid, and if you are unsure you should ask at the earliest possible opportunity. If you ask voluntarily, staff are much more likely to be lenient than they would otherwise.

 

[dan_atki]

I would expect the National Conditions of Carriage, paragraph 3 to apply, in spirit if not strictly according to the exact wording (it refers only to tickets, not specifically railcards):

"3. Where the full range of tickets is not available
If you cannot buy an appropriate ticket for the journey you want to make because the range of tickets that is available at the station from which you intend to start your journey is restricted, you must buy a ticket or Permit to Travel before you travel that entitles you to make at least part of the journey. Then you must, as soon as is reasonably practicable, buy an appropriate ticket to complete your journey. In these circumstances, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey. The price you will have to pay will be reduced by the amount paid for the ticket or Permit to Travel."

That's what I'd hope to be applicable! So, I'd buy a £10.00 SDS, and then get my railcard for £20.60? Or do I buy a £20.00 SDR, pay £24.00 for the railcard, get the £20.00 SDR non-issued, get the same SDR re-issued with discount for £13.20 and get a refund of £6.80?

I might have to ask a guard what the course of action would be here - I'm very interested to know the answer!

 

[John @ home]

Regarding the month being really obvious, the railcard expired in MAR, and I was travelling in MAY, so the difference between it and a valid railcard was one letter.

Incorrect. If your railcard expired in March, the abreviation for the month printed on the card would have been MCH.

 

[glynn80]

As far as I am aware, the only retail points for a railcard are the website and a staffed booking office.

There is also via Telesales (as I stated above).

The procedure via Telesales is different to on the internet and at the station when pruchasing Railcards.

You are sent a Temporary Permit to Travel Without Photocard, this must be exchanged within one calendar month at a staffed station for a photocard where the passenger takes all of his identification etc.

An example of one is on the Rail Ticket Gallery (http://therailticketgallery.fotopic.net/p17759395.html).

 

[Mojo]

Would it be possible for ticket barriers to recognise railcard discounted tickets, and then ask for the railcard to be fed through before letting the passenger through.

Given how slow and inadequate some ticket gates are as it is - if this was the case then there would be massive backlogs.

Also, those who get Railcards through NatWest bank are issued a single plastic card rather than a paper ticket, I think this may also be the case for those who order online.

 

[clagmonster]

At peak times, the majority of passengers will not have railcards, partly due to the 10:00 minimum fare restriction. Therefore, if as they should, the barriers can cope with a larger amount of people without a railcard, at off peak times, when a larger minority of people of passengers have railcards but the total number of people is less, the barriers should be able to cope. I do agree though, the majority of new barrier installations are slow, I am not sure why this is.
Surely it would be possible to eradicate plastic railcards. The NatWest ones will presumably come from a BR issuing office, possiby the same place as online ones. It surely wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to provide these places with a paper issuing machine.

 

[dan_atki]

...and with the advent of smartcard ticketing we would not have these sorts of problems at all! Provided it's done properly like Oyster Photocards are then it would be possible upon purchase of a ticket to verify that a railcard is valid as needed!

 

[Tom C]

Would it be possible for ticket barriers to recognise railcard discounted tickets, and then ask for the railcard to be fed through before letting the passenger through.

No, but it is possible to set the barriers to reject all tickets with a railcard, child, priv etc etc which forces you to show your ticket to a member of barrier staff who will usually ask to see your railcard.

 

[clagmonster]

I am aware of that system and think it is a good idea. However, I was thinking more of a new facility to add to the barriers, wondering whether it would be technically possible.

 

[Tom C]

I am aware of that system and think it is a good idea. However, I was thinking more of a new facility to add to the barriers, wondering whether it would be technically possible.

I would imagine it would be as the railcard has a magnetic stripe thus is encoded. I have never put a railcard through SPORTIS verify or the Advantix reader so I don't know what information is held on it.

That being said there isn't a robust system for replacing railcards as it is without adding Encode exchanges as well.

 

[jon0844]

I see no reason why you couldn't get a Railcard that has a RFID chip in it - so you can swipe it like an Oyster card.

In fact, I'd have thought that if and when we get a nationwide smartcard ticketing system that follows a single standard - we could have your ticket loaded on to a railcard - so it's just one thing to swipe. Any other discount cards (disabled, network card) would simply be 'added' to your single ticket.

As with Oyster, when you pass through a gate, you'd see a screen that would warn you when you're down to 1 week, 6 days or whatever left until expiry.

RFID chips would also be much easier to manage by onboard staff with a suitable reader (pretty cheap these days). I think I've even seen M&S using chips in their price tags now!

 

[ian13]

Regarding evidence of intent, things likely to be obvious
- Travelling on a railcard you are not valid for (eg a 27 year old on a 16-25 railcard)
- Travelling on a tampered railcard
- Sustained evasion (i.e. being told it's out of date, and still travelling on it).

Quite frankly (and I only have limited legal training - a first year degree unit), travelling on an out of date card, with no evidence that they were unaware is unlikely to lead to a conviction. As stated before, it's just too easy not to notice (lots of driving licences have expired and people haven't renewed as they have forgotten that the cards are valid for only 10 years). Even when you present the card, you hardly look at it yourself - you know it's a picture of you.

What concerns me more is that they can take your old discounted ticket from you. One should be able to keep it as it is proof of contract and would be required to make a refund claim. See, if you are unable to travel on that ticket as you don't have the card, you can't have used that portion, and should therefore be able to keep it for refund claiming, or use once you are valid (i.e. get off and buy one). Likewise, without it you can't just buy an anytime to the next station and get your old ticket excessed to full fare. Even if your ticket is exchanged for a receipt, I doubt that would be sufficient to get it excessed/travel once you have a railcard. Suspicion of fraud by a guard (think innocent until proven guilty) even though you aren't prosecuted strikes me as unfair, especially given the financial penalty it ensues.

 

[First class]

What concerns me more is that they can take your old discounted ticket from you. One should be able to keep it as it is proof of contract and would be required to make a refund claim. See, if you are unable to travel on that ticket as you don't have the card, you can't have used that portion, and should therefore be able to keep it for refund claiming, or use once you are valid (i.e. get off and buy one). Likewise, without it you can't just buy an anytime to the next station and get your old ticket excessed to full fare. Even if your ticket is exchanged for a receipt, I doubt that would be sufficient to get it excessed/travel once you have a railcard. Suspicion of fraud by a guard (think innocent until proven guilty) even though you aren't prosecuted strikes me as unfair, especially given the financial penalty it ensues.

Technically, it's their ticket you take from them for the duration of your journey. You never actually own the ticket or product.

 

[Mojo]

Technically, it's their ticket you take from them for the duration of your journey. You never actually own the ticket or product.

That may be the case, but there are regulations concerning how all parties to a contract should behave, what is written in a contract isn't the end of the story, but merely exists for convenience of one or the other party.

You can't buy a ticket from a ticket office and have the clerk pick up the tickets and keep them under the counter because they are "property of the railway."