Places that need a metro system

[D6975]

Having spent 85 minutes on the bus to work on Wednesday (timetabled at 35 mins) due to congestion caused by temporary traffic lights, I second the proposal for Bristol.

Bristol was one of the first cities to propose a return to trams, but....

Leeds could do with one too. Do they still have roads in the outer suburbs with the wide central reservations that used to be the reserved tram running?

 

[Aictos]

Indeed, I would to see trams brought back to Peterborough and introduce a ITSO card which you could use on both buses and trams.

Course this will never happen but if it means improving the transport links and reducing congestion as the city is rapidly growing then I'm all for it.

Indeed, I believe a congestion charge should apply in the busier hours to encourage locals to use public transport which would deliver cleaner air for all plus reduce fuel costs of private motoring.

 

[Ivo]

Population of Southend metro area: 200,000
Population of Poole/Bournemouth metro area: 450,000
Also remember SE Dorset is a pluricentric metro area, so it needs strong links between its two major centres.


So... I spent about half an hour or so knocking up an interurban-style tram loop for Poole and Bournemouth; the shorter southern side roughly follows the railway line and the A35, whereas the northern side runs faster through the industrial areas of Poole and along the A347 into Bournemouth. 15 miles long, 43 stations (admittedly I have placed them a bit arbitrarily, and also I haven't paid much attention to road junction layouts and such), and I've got ideas for a few branches too, one of which would require tramtrains....
» Clicky «

I just wrote a 1,200 word response to this and vBulletin wiped it when I tried to submit it! :cry:

TL;DR (or more accurately TL;NWT [i.e. too long; not writing twice]): all sorts of factors to consider, including tourism, peak flows, employment centres, wider urban areas (Bournemouth etc is circa 380,000; Southend etc is circa 270,000 without Basildon), existing bus and road provision, etc etc.

Oh, and before anyone says I should have done it in Word or similar, I did - but after I copied it to here ready to post I then made the maps below which involved more copying and pasting, and I closed Word because I knew the post was ready and it was loaded ready to post.

 

[Eagle]

There is no way you're getting a tramline across either Poole Bridge; they're both lifting. Also I'd like to see how you plan to have trams on the A35 Upton bypass; it's 70 mph! Good effort though.

My tramline was based on the W&D More bus routes (hence why it goes through the commercial Lower Parkstone unlike yours which goes through the more suburban Upper Parkstone).

 

[Ivo]

It would run next to the Bypass, and underground through Poole

What struck me was not knowing how deep the cutting is below Poole Bridge...

Have PM'd Mojo to see if he can explain what happened

 

[Eagle]

What struck me was not knowing how deep the cutting is below Poole Bridge...

Do you mean how deep the waterway is under it? About six feet (and that's deep for Poole Harbour!).

I have added some phase II branches to my system, again based loosely on the more popular and crowded routes; a route east to Boscombe which splits with one branch to Castlepoint and one to Iford and Christchurch, a route north to Broadstone (with the possibility of extending to Wimborne along the LSWR old mainline), a route south to Lilliput, Canford Cliffs and Sandbanks (you'll have to forgive me the romantic option of routing it via the undercliff ), and a western route to this Upton Parkway you seem so bent on. I've had to make it share the causeway with the SWML; there's no way you can get it across Holes Bay otherwise without going way to the north. This would involve tramtrains unless you widened the causeway (note that where phase I runs round the park boating lake it's merely running alongside the SWML, with a diveunder at the west end).

I have ideas for phase III too...

You'll notice I've tried to keep the trams away from busy high roads but also away from suburban residential areas; I think that this system will be more of a longer-distance-journey-orientated one like Metrolink or the Midland Metro, so serving all the shops on the high street isn't what I'm aiming for.

 

[Schnellzug]

Funnily enough, i've often toyed with the idea of a Poole-Bournemouth metro as well; it would definitely have to to go to Christchurch and preferably Wimborne, who knows, maybe Ringwood as well. Ringowod has very poor services to Southampton, since W&D aren't really interested anymore, so if it could connect with rail services to Southampton somehow without having to go back into Bournemouth, that might be useful.
And it would, of course, Connect with rail services on the reopened southern end of the Somerset & Dorset on to at last as far as Blandford, and maybe beyond, of course.
I suppose EU Rules would insist on it being tendered, but i should think Yellow Buses would be able to run it fairly competently.

 

[Ivo]

Surely Ringwood is too far? It wouldn't be so bad if the area between it and the main conurbation was more densely populated...

Do you mean how deep the waterway is under it? About six feet (and that's deep for Poole Harbour!).

I did mean that I expected it to be deeper than that.

I have added some phase II branches to my system, again based loosely on the more popular and crowded routes; a route east to Boscombe which splits with one branch to Castlepoint and one to Iford and Christchurch, a route north to Broadstone (with the possibility of extending to Wimborne along the LSWR old mainline), a route south to Lilliput, Canford Cliffs and Sandbanks (you'll have to forgive me the romantic option of routing it via the undercliff ), and a western route to this Upton Parkway you seem so bent on. I've had to make it share the causeway with the SWML; there's no way you can get it across Holes Bay otherwise without going way to the north. This would involve tramtrains unless you widened the causeway (note that where phase I runs round the park boating lake it's merely running alongside the SWML, with a diveunder at the west end).

I did think about a route to Castlepoint, given the m2 route, but for me the problem is that it would reduce the available capacity on the far longer route out towards New Milton. If my idea only went as far as Christchurch, fair enough...

Also, relating to the bit in bold: Well put! I just think that (a) it would be an easy place to terminate, (b) there is plenty of room for a depot and (c) it could be used as a Park & Ride facility for areas to the north and west such as Wareham and Blandford (although I admit that they may be a little too distant; there is a difference between Basildon and the A130 - less than four miles - and Blandford and the A35 at nearly ten). I know the local market would be fairly limited, but the potential certainly is there. The only problem is making people outside of the local area aware of it.

Also, I like the Sandbanks one, but is it really needed? Unless you get 'Arry Redknapp to pay for it and then have it publicised at White Hart Lane? (He is a Sandbanks resident, is he not?)

I have ideas for phase III too...

You'll notice I've tried to keep the trams away from busy high roads but also away from suburban residential areas; I think that this system will be more of a longer-distance-journey-orientated one like Metrolink or the Midland Metro, so serving all the shops on the high street isn't what I'm aiming for.

My two ideas are a mixed bag in this sense, I guess. My Southend one is far more localised than my Bournemouth one.

By the way, how do you do those Google map things?

 

[Eagle]

I did think about a route to Castlepoint, given the m2 route

m1 goes to Castlepoint :P Although the route I've used to get to is it an extension of the m2 to Boscombe, so go figure.

I'm now trying to work out a general service pattern (initially aiming for 12 tph between Poole Interchange and The Square, Bournemouth).

 

[starrymarkb]

What sort of Metro would you use as a template. The French VAL system seems to be preferred choice for similar sized cities. Plus fully automatic trains would keep the operating costs down in the long term

 

[Ivo]

Brighton...

 

[bb21]

m1 goes to Castlepoint :P Although the route I've used to get to is it an extension of the m2 to Boscombe, so go figure.

I'm now trying to work out a general service pattern (initially aiming for 12 tph between Poole Interchange and The Square, Bournemouth).

Hmm. Why did you bypass Branksome station and use Lindsey Road instead? It would surely make more sense to follow the old X3 route (before it was cut back to the Square)?

I would also run a branch down West Cliff rejoining the mainline at Westbourne, or run it all the way via Canford Cliffs and Lilliput, re-emerging at Lower Parkstone. Sandbanks anyone?

To be a useful network, it will also need to serve the interchange, and then run along St Swithun's Road towards Boscombe. I don't think Boscombe should be left out of the central circular part.

And you're proposing serving Fern Barrow but not down Wallisdown or even Kinson?

I'm afraid that I have just taken away probably the most profitable parts of the W&D network in the area.

 

[bangor-toad]

One that I think could work would be Brighton. Remove the local stations on the West Coastway between Worthing and Brighton itself, leaving only Shoreham and Hove, and then convert the Littlehampton and West Worthing terminators into a through Metro service which leaves NR metals at Worthing and runs into Worthing centre, before ultimately terminating at either Falmer or the Marina.

Odd you mention this...
In the early 80's something like this was a serious proposal.
The basic idea was to rip up one of the existing tracks between Worthing and Hove and replace it with metro / tram / light rail. BR (as it then was) would have had stations at Hove, Portslade & Worthing. After all at that time it was thought there would be a declining demand.
(Contrast that to how many 12 car 377's serve Hove in the rush hour now!)

The metro would have served the three main stations and all the minor ones. It would have also been extended down to the Marina (how wasn't shown). The line towards Lewes would have also been singled, or closed, and replaced with the new metro service.

It's quite amazing how the decline of the early 80's has been turned around.
Cheers,
Jason

 

[Eagle]

I'm afraid that I have just taken away probably the most profitable parts of the W&D network in the area.

Was wondering how long it'd take you to show up and critique me. Considering I know nothing about tram network operations, and I was literally making the routes up as I went along (I wasn't aiming for a loop, it just happened), I think I've gotten off lightly.

As I said, I was aiming for this to be a longer-distance interurban mode of transport, rather than direct competition with the buses, hence why quite often the route goes down a quiet open road rather than the main road, which should reduce journey times and delays and such. I think. Although as you've pointed out there are a few oversights I didn't spot...

Oh and Bournemouth–Westcliff–Sandbanks was one of my phase III routes.

With regards to Boscombe, the service pattern I worked out gives it good links to both halves of the loop, so the loop doesn't have to go out of its way to include it (the junction for the Boscombe branch and Sandbanks branch are meant to be wyes, hence why I stuck the junctions on quiet roads). My service pattern is 4tph on each of these:

• Full circle of the loop
• Upton to Christchurch via Parkstone
• Broadstone to Castlepoint via Parkstone
• Sandbanks to Castlepoint via Talbot
• Sandbanks to Bournemouth Interchange

with extra services Poole to Boscombe via Parkstone during the peak.

 

[jopsuk]

Do you mean how deep the waterway is under it? About six feet (and that's deep for Poole Harbour!).

On the charts it's about 3m at low tide, with area of 6m depth immediatly either side of the bridge (old bridge). New bridge, depth is approx 3m down to 1.7 (so you're not entirely wrong!) in the centre.

 

[LE Greys]

With Edinburgh, if they ever get their act together, would it be possible to reopen the suburban loop using trams of Prince's Street? Imagine trams serving Newington, Morningside and Craiglockhart. Not sure what's left of the old route up to Leith Central (or the one to Leith North for that matter).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was wondering how long it'd take you to show up and critique me. Considering I know nothing about tram network operations, and I was literally making the routes up as I went along (I wasn't aiming for a loop, it just happened), I think I've gotten off lightly.

As I said, I was aiming for this to be a longer-distance interurban mode of transport, rather than direct competition with the buses, hence why quite often the route goes down a quiet open road rather than the main road, which should reduce journey times and delays and such. I think. Although as you've pointed out there are a few oversights I didn't spot...

Oh and Bournemouth–Westcliff–Sandbanks was one of my phase III routes.

With regards to Boscombe, the service pattern I worked out gives it good links to both halves of the loop, so the loop doesn't have to go out of its way to include it (the junction for the Boscombe branch and Sandbanks branch are meant to be wyes, hence why I stuck the junctions on quiet roads). My service pattern is 4tph on each of these:

• Full circle of the loop
• Upton to Christchurch via Parkstone
• Broadstone to Castlepoint via Parkstone
• Sandbanks to Castlepoint via Talbot
• Sandbanks to Bournemouth Interchange

with extra services Poole to Boscombe via Parkstone during the peak.

Having lived in Bournemouth, I like these ideas. It used to take me 45 minutes to get from Boscombe to Poole College every morning along a horribly long route via Bournemouth Uni. Anything that cut that short would be a godsend.

 

[jopsuk]

With Edinburgh, if they ever get their act together, would it be possible to reopen the suburban loop using trams of Prince's Street? Imagine trams serving Newington, Morningside and Craiglockhart. Not sure what's left of the old route up to Leith Central (or the one to Leith North for that matter).

Then the South Sub wouldn't be available to freight, unless you were able to reduce it to single track, and somehow squeeze a double track tram line in the remaining space, perhaps reducing to single track across bridges, through tight bits and wherever passing loops were put in.

The original tram network was to have been the line being built, a loop to Leith that I think would have come back in along the line that went to Leith North (not Citadel) and (much less well developed) one south to Kings Buildings, Cameron Toll and the Royal Infirmary .

 

[Batman]

If the Cross City Line was given cross rail style tunnells from Five Ways to Duddeston, with four traking to and 2 extra platforms at Aston, flyovers at King's Norton and Barnt Green and full double tracking to and a second platform at Redditch it would effectivly become Birmingham's underground system.

If all regional services were diverted to the Camp Hill Line (with help from a cord to Moor Street), there could be a 5 minute interval service from Redditch to Four Oaks, with slightly lower frequencies to Blake Street and Lichfield.

It would also require four tracking from Longbridge to Barnt Green and possibly a second higher level platform at Licfield Trent Valley.

I'm not suggesting that is economically viable, it's just a nice idea.

 

[Jonny]

Where do you think could do with a metro system like the T&W or the Tube? I say Manchester needs an underground line (the city center is manic), Edinburgh may need one, also a possibility of Preston and District metro (including Ormskirk, Lancaster, and some of Fylde)
Anywhere else?

Manchester's Metrolink is all surface-level though and vulnerable to bus-lock; it could do with being undergrounded like the TW Metro system under Newcastle City Centre - but probably not as deep.

Edit:meant more as a reply to @MattE2010

 

[Firesprite]

There is no way you're getting a tramline across either Poole Bridge; they're both lifting.

My tramline was based on the W&D More bus routes (hence why it goes through the commercial Lower Parkstone unlike yours which goes through the more suburban Upper Parkstone).

That's not been a problem in other country's, The Dutch have been running trains and trams over
lifting bridges for years. The old tram route went up North road than down along Ashley Road through
Upper Parkstone. The Ashley road is full of shops and other commercial premises. Lower Parkstone
is more residential, Much of this area was agricultural until the 1920s and 1930s.

 

[LE Greys]

Then the South Sub wouldn't be available to freight, unless you were able to reduce it to single track, and somehow squeeze a double track tram line in the remaining space, perhaps reducing to single track across bridges, through tight bits and wherever passing loops were put in.

The original tram network was to have been the line being built, a loop to Leith that I think would have come back in along the line that went to Leith North (not Citadel) and (much less well developed) one south to Kings Buildings, Cameron Toll and the Royal Infirmary .

So Edinburgh needs a new freight line, then?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the Cross City Line was given cross rail style tunnells from Five Ways to Duddeston, with four traking to and 2 extra platforms at Aston, flyovers at King's Norton and Barnt Green and full double tracking to and a second platform at Redditch it would effectivly become Birmingham's underground system.

If all regional services were diverted to the Camp Hill Line (with help from a cord to Moor Street), there could be a 5 minute interval service from Redditch to Four Oaks, with slightly lower frequencies to Blake Street and Lichfield.

It would also require four tracking from Longbridge to Barnt Green and possibly a second higher level platform at Licfield Trent Valley.

I'm not suggesting that is economically viable, it's just a nice idea.

I do like the idea of that. Apart from anything, it should be possible to have a Snow Hill-New Street-Moor Street/Bull Ring section of tunnel, which should be very convenient.

 

[IanXC]

I'm not sure that this is the best of designs, but Hull has an enormous bus industry so I would have thought some routes would benefit from some kind of metro system.

This picture comes to mind, but I'm not sure the routes are as good as they could be! http://www.flickr.com/photos/emperordalek/4045353945/

 

[Ivo]

Those names are so unoriginal!

I like the idea but I can't see a lot of point. Hull is too isolated and alone not really enough to justify such a system. If it had a few commuter towns around it, better national transport links and a larger and/or second centre, or otherwise was clogged with commuters (either in or out), then maybe...

 

[IanXC]

I like the idea but I can't see a lot of point. Hull is too isolated and alone not really enough to justify such a system. If it had a few commuter towns around it, better national transport links and a larger and/or second centre, or otherwise was clogged with commuters (either in or out), then maybe...

Have you seen the A63 at rush hour?!

Also theres only Hull station in the City of Hull, just outside Cottingham arguably serves a tangible purpose in Hull's transport, but Hessle only has an hourly service.

There are 8 bus routes in Hull which have a service at 10 minutes or less frequency.

 

[Ivo]

Looking into Brum now, and specifically the afore-mentioned line that I strongly dislike, the Cross City. I would like to provide my own proposal for this route. Seen as much of the route is as current, I'm not going to provide a detailed map this time (only a basic line with spots for stations), but will instead describe the route, beginning a couple of miles south-east of the current Redditch station. Use Google Maps if not familiar with the area (or otherwise cannot access a map!).

Starting at Wapping Roundabout [Studley, we run at surface level to a station [Woodrow] near Alexandra Hospital, probably close to the western junction of Woodrow Drive and Woodrow South, and then run underneath (or preferably next to) the Alcester Highway to a station [Redditch South] just north of the A448 interchange, and then into a short tunnel carrying the line no more than one mile to the trackbed of the route that formerly ran south from Redditch, and into the current Redditch station [Redditch Town]. After that, the line runs as current (with all other traffic running via the Camp Hill, which does admittedly strip University of its longer distance traffic; to compensate, better connections would be made at Barnt Green) to Five Ways, after which it diverts from the current tunnel on a north/south axis to a station on Broad Street, about 300m from the National Indoor Arena [Broad Street], and then on to a deep-level New Street [New Street]. From there, the line follows the main route to the Moor Street "dip", with a station connecting to Moor Street underneath Queensway [Moor Street], and then north to a station near to the University of Central England [St Chad's]. Finally, it runs underneath the A38 and then the A5127, with one station between Dartmouth Circus and Park Lane [Aston Bridge], and another close to the current Aston station (which would retain its Walsall service) [Aston Interchange], before finally surfacing just south of Gravelly Hill and running as current to Lichfield TV.

I have in mind a second potential route as well, but at present that shall have to wait. All I will say for now is that it is an east-west route that terminates at the Airport in the east and a point just outside the main conurbation in the west.

 

[anthony263]

Swansea should get some kind of tram network such as:

Route 1:

Mumbles - Blackpill - (Somehwere near the Quadrant Centre) - SA1 - Swansea Docks (New sttop for the new university campus which has been proposed and is near to the Swansea bus museum) - Aberavon via the Sandfields estate

Route 2:

Llandore P&R - City Centre - Swansea University/Singleton - Gowerton (Via Clyne Valley) - Gorseinon - Grovesend Parkway (New station built on Swansea district Line to be served by fast trains to/from Cardiff & west wales)

Route3:

Singleton - City Centre - Liberty Stadium - Morriston - Morriston Hospital (Similar to the current FTR metro service)

I most certainly agree with Bristol needing some kind of metro system in addition to heavy rail but I say a very small chance of it happening considering all the problems they had trying to agree about a tram network.

 

[Batman]

Looking into Brum now, and specifically the afore-mentioned line that I strongly dislike, the Cross City. I would like to provide my own proposal for this route. Seen as much of the route is as current, I'm not going to provide a detailed map this time (only a basic line with spots for stations), but will instead describe the route, beginning a couple of miles south-east of the current Redditch station. Use Google Maps if not familiar with the area (or otherwise cannot access a map!).

Starting at Wapping Roundabout [Studley, we run at surface level to a station [Woodrow] near Alexandra Hospital, probably close to the western junction of Woodrow Drive and Woodrow South, and then run underneath (or preferably next to) the Alcester Highway to a station [Redditch South] just north of the A448 interchange, and then into a short tunnel carrying the line no more than one mile to the trackbed of the route that formerly ran south from Redditch, and into the current Redditch station [Redditch Town]. After that, the line runs as current (with all other traffic running via the Camp Hill, which does admittedly strip University of its longer distance traffic; to compensate, better connections would be made at Barnt Green) to Five Ways, after which it diverts from the current tunnel on a north/south axis to a station on Broad Street, about 300m from the National Indoor Arena [Broad Street], and then on to a deep-level New Street [New Street]. From there, the line follows the main route to the Moor Street "dip", with a station connecting to Moor Street underneath Queensway [Moor Street], and then north to a station near to the University of Central England [St Chad's]. Finally, it runs underneath the A38 and then the A5127, with one station between Dartmouth Circus and Park Lane [Aston Bridge], and another close to the current Aston station (which would retain its Walsall service) [Aston Interchange], before finally surfacing just south of Gravelly Hill and running as current to Lichfield TV.

I have in mind a second potential route as well, but at present that shall have to wait. All I will say for now is that it is an east-west route that terminates at the Airport in the east and a point just outside the main conurbation in the west.

I doubt that many stations are needed in Central Birmingham. Low level platforms at New Street should be enough. I had in mind closing Five Ways station on it;s current sight bause the tunnell portal would be on the waste ground just to the east of the station, with the new station to the south of the portal. But I supose that station could be re-located further north to provide better access to Brindly Place.

I also think that Buttlers Lane station should be closed and re-located further south so it is closer to the centre of Mere Green.

 

[Badger]

Not sure if this really counts, but Wolverhampton could do with some stations dotted along it's various lines.

Fordhouses: serves Wolverhampton Business Park, Goodrich, Freshway, Marston Aerospace, i54 (Jaguar Land Rover), etc.
Oxley: serves the Oxley area (big shopping location), Pendeford High School, and the new 660 strong housing development at Goodyear.
Dunstall: serves Whitmore Reans, high density housing. Dunstall racecourse & Aldersley Stadium.
Pendeford: serves Pendeford and Dovecote estates, Aldersley High School.
Tettenhall: serves Tettenhall and Newbridge. Popular shopping location.
Compton: serves Compton, Perton, Castlecroft.
Heath Town: high density housing, student flats, etc. New Cross Hospital. Near to the town of Wednesfield.
Neachells Lane: serves various works.
Willenhall: serves Willenhall town.

http://bb.ohsk.net/uploads/northwolverhampton.png --> red = existing stations
Yellow line = Wolverhampton and West Midlands boundary (near enough)

 

[Class172]

Not exactly a proper metro system, but here is my idea for a Worcester and surrounding areas tram-train system, which is already proposed for possible future development - I've just bulked the idea out with possible lines and new ones.

Basic service pattern as follows:
1tph - Great Malvern - Droitwich Spa
1tph - Droitwich Spa - Worcestershire Parkway
1tph - Worcestershire Parkway - Great Malvern

4tph - Claines - Bath Road
4tph - Hallow - County Hall
4tph - Cathedral - Wainwright Road - County Hall - Cathedral (loop service) - Sixways served on matchdays.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Cardiff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!