Platinum Trains

[Pumbaa]

Thoughts anyone?

New OAO on the ECML Edinburgh and beyond - London. Aim for 4hrs 15mins between Waverley and Kings Cross using 180s, with an extra 2hrs 20 to Aberdeen on top of that.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-platinum-appform.pdf

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-platinum-draft-taa.pdf

 

[yorkie]

An absolute joke! :roll:

Running 5-car mid-range rejected DMUs discarded by FGW for being too unreliable and not suitable for long-distance services, running non-stop from Edinburgh to London?!

Crawling through Newcastle and York at about 30mph just to save a few minutes? What are they going to do at York? cross to the slow lines and use the avoider? Can't see them getting any paths through platforms 3/5.

The chances of a fast path being given to them are about as likely as CrossCountry getting their act together and becoming TOC of the year. In fact, possibly even less likely than that!

 

[Pumbaa]

I quite like the fact that they explicitly state that their venture is not intended to

For clarity, it is not intended to claim ORCATs revenue on this route

to avoid an NXEC vs Grand Central case I would imagine.


I am also liking this...

Working closely with our proposed maintenance and overhaul provider, it is proposed to undertake thorough maintenance examinations and apply corrective action to overcome a poor performance reputation which the Class 180 DMUs have against them. We understand the maintenance issues relating to these trains and have secured specific investment to significantly improve their performance capabilities (this investment is over-and-above that which would normally be asked/expected of the respective leasing company).

Investment has also been secured to significantly upgrade the passenger environment on-board the trains to sufficiently cater the needs and expectations of long distance travellers. Enhancements include the installation of a fully functional galley, seat-back display screens giving internet access, live TV and the capability of playing CD’s and DVD’s.

Sounds interesting, but I doubt it would to fruition. But they sounds relatively well organised, and want to be starting business this time next year. Good luck to them!

 

[Bayum]

So, National Express aint going to be getting the 180's then no??

 

[Mojo]

Given that there is a limit on how long traincrew can work without a break (IIRC one main reason why West Coast services to Glasgow call at Preston), would it also not require two traincrews to board and relieve the others half way?

Weren't some steam locos were fitted with connections to the end (now not really a problem with MUs) to allow driver swapovers midway?

 

[Pumbaa]

I thought NXEC crews worked all the way to Edinburgh if it terminated there?

 

[djw1981]

Also, for a service running Aberdeen-London, having your maintenance base in Glasgow or Edinburgh (the two options listed) involves a 2-3hr ECS run. Looking at their paths applied for, that gives a maximum time on depot of about 3hrs per night. I know that Crofton have worked miracles for the HT Pioneers, but I'm not sure Polmadie or Haymarket will be able to achieve the same with stock they are not used to, and in the case of Haymarket, have never maintained anything from that company before.

• 390min service Aberdeen-London KX, stopping Dundee & Edinburgh Waverley.
• maintenance paths from Aberdeen to Haymarket and Polmadie.
• SB departures M-F (1) between 0630-0700 and (2) 0900-0930; Sa&Su (1) between 0900-0930
• Nb departures M-F (1) between 1345-1430 and (2) 1545-1630; Sa&Su (1) between 1545-1630

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-platinum-appform.pdf

The applicant proposes new services under a new contract between Aberdeen and London Kings Cross via the ECML operating two outbound and two return journeys per day (Monday to Friday) and a single outbound and return journey on Saturdays and Sundays.
Proposed calling stations are: Dundee and Edinburgh.
Rolling stock in the initial three years will be 2 x Class 180 DMUs each consisting of 5 vehicles. It is anticipated to place orders for new build rolling stock in year one and upon delivery will replace the Class 180 DMUs in years 3/4.
A series of paths have been identified (five on the UP and three on the DOWN) by our route planner – these paths have been developed in conjunction with the indicative off-peak timetable which has been worked up by Network Rail’s ECML capacity review (commissioned by ORR). At this stage paths have not been validated by NR – this will not happen until July 2009 when the actual offer is made.

he city of Aberdeen (the third largest city in Scotland), together with Dundee boasts a combinedpopulation of approximately 350,000 people. However, with only three direct train services per day, theonly alternative by rail is to take a 2 ½ hour local rail service to Edinburgh and change – an average overall journey time of 7 ½ hours. This compares with Berwick‐upon‐Tweed with a population of just 25,000 and 12 direct train services to London, Dunbar with a population of6,300 and 4 direct daily services to London and Motherwell with a population of 30,300 and 7 direct train services to London.

Fair point, but equally does Aberdeen have much business with London, or are people flying because Heathrow and Gatwick are Hub airports for international flights?

Secondly, Aberdeen and Dundee do not currently enjoy the benefits of any express train services to theScottish capital Edinburgh.

Define express then! Their proposed service is only slightly better (in terms fo stopping pattern) than the faster NX?XC services from December, and will still have to be pathed between/around Stopping FSR/XC/NXEC services.

Whilst considering such factors as travelling to an out of town Scottish airport, checking in and makingyour way through customs, boarding and alighting, taxiing and then arriving at a remote London airport,this whole journey experience can add up to 3 ½ hours onto the flight time.
This compares with a 6 ½ journey time from Aberdeen to London, a 5 hours and 20 minute journey timefrom Dundee to London and a 4 hour journey time from Edinburgh to London when travelling with theoperator proposed here. And one mustn’t forget, as well as the fantastic opportunity to work whilsttravelling, taking full advantage of our state‐of‐the‐art technology, we also drop you off right at the heart of London – all at fraction of the cost of flying!

Has someone mixed up the ORR application with the marketing pitch?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought NXEC crews worked all the way to Edinburgh if it terminated there?

From where? IIRC Edinburgh crews rarely work further south than York.

 

[yorkie]

So, National Express aint going to be getting the 180's then no??

Is that just a random comment based on no factual evidence or do you have some information to reveal to us?

 

[djw1981]

Edinburgh Guards route cards as of last October:

Edinburgh - Newcastle via Berwick and Carlisle
Newcastle - York
Edinburgh - Glasgow Central via Carstairs, Motherwell, Shotts, Holytown, Bellshill and Hamilton
Edinburgh - Aberdeen via Leuchars
All Fife Circle
Edinburgh - Dundee via Stirling and Perth
Ladybank - Perth
Edinburgh South Suburban line (maybe)

Generally one trip Aberdeens, Yorks, Newcastles and some double trips to Newcastle. Some weekend working to Glasgow Central. Most Aberdeens covered by Aberdeen depot.

 

[yorkie]

Has someone mixed up the ORR application with the marketing pitch?

yeah, I also laughed at that. Maybe they know the people at the ORR who have the misfortune to read these applications travel regularly from London to Edinburgh. Or, more likely, a daft copy and paste and lack of proofreading.:roll:

 

[djw1981]

Is that just a random comment based on no factual evidence or do you have some information to reveal to us?

Given the current proposals:
FGW - 3
HT 1 (to be 5 by year end)
VT - 2
Northern - 3 (to cover 3 diagrams)

Gives us 13 of the 14 Units. One is IIRC severely damaged following a fire and was said by FGW to be unlikely to see service again (said by them in 2007), so maybe being pillaged for spares.

Now what diesel loco can haul a 442 and provide appropriate power?

 

[Mintona]

Given the current proposals:
FGW - 3
HT 1 (to be 5 by year end)
VT - 2
Northern - 3 (to cover 3 diagrams)

Gives us 13 of the 14 Units. One is IIRC severely damaged following a fire and was said by FGW to be unlikely to see service again (said by them in 2007), so maybe being pillaged for spares.

Now what diesel loco can haul a 442 and provide appropriate power?

FGW said 180105 was damaged, but it is back in service now, and I mean in service with FGW, not sitting at Oxley or Wolverton.

 

[yorkie]

djw1981 - what's the source for that data? Of the TOCs you list, I thought only HT want to use 180s. FGW are returning theirs - has that changed? news to me! As for NT - more chance of pigs flying, surely? VT - thought the deal was off? It was a crazy idea running diesel trains under the wires and restricted to 110mph!* HT, granted. Interestingly NXEC and GC are not on your list.

(* Except Stafford to Wolverhampton - wow!! )

 

[djw1981]

I was going on the list of deals deemed to be almost there or tehre abouts in various rail media (I know, I know I;d be better off believing Gordon Brown than a journalist). I apologise it I came over as authoritative, it is as ever, a best guess.

IIRC Virgin Trains have let it be known that they are taking 2 sets to cover for the cl90 set due to the heavy maintenance work needed on that set come December, but it will still only run at 110mph. If VT don't take them, then they need to get another Mk2 set of coaches through various exams. A cl90 may be easier to find....

FGW are allegedly returning their other 3 once they get the HST which NXEC are using to cover for the Mallardisation of HSTs. This set then needs to go through the FGW refrurb programme, so is unlikely to be inservice with FGW before mid 2009 (allowing for NXEC programme to finish, and the set to be refurbed for FGW)

Northern staff at Picc (IIRC) have been apparently been told that they are getting them for Man Picc - Blackpool services, with some peak hour extension to Huddersfield. They ened capacity and it is starting to hurt Labour in their 'heartland', so this would seem any easy DfT sopp.

I personally don't see GC getting extra paths to anywhere but Sunderland- O think DfT will put pressure on ORR to give them to NX to help meet the franchise premium profile - after all one of ORR's responsibilities is the financial performance of the railway... and I understand from various reading online that DfT have been playing hardball with ORR over this aspect.

NXEC need a fleet of at least 7 (based on their diagraming and ORR application) - there could be common maintenance at Crofton with HT, but they cannot get the full 7 until mid 2009 as outlined above.

I think that the ORR decision regarding paths wall be the key, and will surprise us all somehow!

 

[1D53]

djw1981 - what's the source for that data? Of the TOCs you list, I thought only HT want to use 180s. FGW are returning theirs - has that changed? news to me! As for NT - more chance of pigs flying, surely? VT - thought the deal was off? It was a crazy idea running diesel trains under the wires and restricted to 110mph!* HT, granted. Interestingly NXEC and GC are not on your list.

(* Except Stafford to Wolverhampton - wow!! )

There was been plenty of discussion of Northern getting 180's here and elsewhere, its a very real possibility at some point if the issues can be ironed out.

 

[David]

There is no possibility of Platinum Trains running (IMO) as it duplicates an existing service already.

There is already 3 trains every 2 hours (roughly) between Kings Cross - Edinburgh, with serveral going through to Aberdeen, and despite the proposed changes to the ECML timetable, the frequency will be about the same. As for the time required between London and Edinburgh, NXEC already run 1 train each way a day in 4h15m, and they want most to run in that sort of time (with 2 stops compared to PT none).

There's no benefit to passengers that I can see ....

 

[jopsuk]

It's an interesting service pattern they propose- two southbound services leaving in the morning about two hours apart, getting into London lunchtime/mid afternoon, with a quick turnaround meaning northbound departures mid afternoon/evening rush hour.

They're not going to be competing with airlines for day-trips, that's for sure (oil company management and executive types).

The earlier morning service and later afternoon ones would mean earlier and later direct trains than at present (first southbound is 07:52, last northbound is 16:00).

It's an odd one, it must be said. Some sort of fishing expedition? Notice the company is based in Doncaster, which seems odd given where they propose to serve

 

[me123]

One word for the above proposal: laughable.

 

[Pumbaa]

yeah the guy who's fronting it is ex-Northern.

I like one aspect of the proposal - what they want to do with the 180s. If they had seat-back TVs and such like they say they will, I'm not gonna give NXEC my money...

 

[91101]

The crucial fact here is that they are not looking at taking a share of ORCATS, they are using an airline/TGV style reservation only service. End to end, it looks like they'll shave about half an hour from the journey time from Aberdeen-Kings Cross.

It will be interesting how they will manage crew changes, unless they're going to manage it like the sleepers?

 

[Craig]

It's just on the limits for maximum time before break. Think Hidden 18 recommends no more than 6 hours, companies may have their own policies.

Some Aberdeen - London trains are Newcastle drivers from Aberdeen to Newcastle for example and the Up and Down Inverness - London KX on Sunday is normally crewed by an Edinburgh guard right through to/from Newcastle.

 

[rail-britain]

There are great doubts about the business case for this service
However, there must surely be time savings?
Their first proposal is for :
Aberdeen - Dundee - Edinburgh - London Kings Cross
How does the end to end times compare, with the fastest NXEC Aberdeen - London Kings Cross service?

There would have to be at least one or two crew changes, the obvious one would be Edinburgh
The next one at York could be performed in the station, but not as an advertised stop
Many other companies already do this type of crew change, so why not Platinum?

Maintenance of units might not be that easy, the only place to swap would be London Kings Cross
Therefore I assume for a basic service there would be four units with one spare

I do agree that in effect it is a duplication of service, but if the service existed then having a non-stop service from the east of Scotland direct to London may be attractive to some people
However, by missing out stations such as York, Doncaster, and Peterborough then that would pretty much reduce the market by a considerable amount
When I worked on HSTs out of Aberdeen, there weren't very many people actually travelling to London, most were either travelling within Scotland or to Newcastle, York, etc

 

[Craig]

However, there must surely be time savings?
Their first proposal is for :
Aberdeen - Dundee - Edinburgh - London Kings Cross
How does the end to end times compare, with the fastest NXEC Aberdeen - London Kings Cross service?

Would much time be saved by not calling at Newcastle or York? The train would still have to slow down to 20-30mph-ish through the stations anyway (rather than the likes of Doncaster where they can just fly though on the fast lines), so there'd only be a few minutes saved by not actually stopping. If they did run non-stop I expect they'd have to build some sort of tolerance into their times to allow for delays which would probably negate the time saved by not stopping at Newcastle or York anyway.

 

[Pumbaa]

Maintenance of units might not be that easy, the only place to swap would be London Kings Cross
Therefore I assume for a basic service there would be four units with one spare

They only want two according to their plans.

 

[djw1981]

2 units, with I assume the first NB service traveling ECS to Haymarket/Polmadie, then forming the first SB service next morning

 

[rail-britain]

There are tremendous time savings to be had between Aberdeen and Edinburgh, by calling at Dundee only
I've done this in a HST before, set failed and so ran ECS a few hours later to Edinburgh, and it managed to cut the journey time by about 30 minutes

Currently the NXEC Aberdeen - London Kings service typically calls at :
Peterborough, York, Newcastle (6 minutes standing time)
Doncaster - York - Darlington - Newcastle - Berwick (4 or 6minutes standing time)
Add to that the time for station stopping, I reckon there is a minimum 20 minutes time saving between Edinburgh and London Kings Cross, so the total might be as much as 50 minutes, which is quite near to what Platinum Trains had in their Press Release a few months ago, a journey time of just over 6 hours

As for two units, that is just impractical
However, if they are reintroducing the 05:55 Aberdeen - London Kings Cross this service can easily turnaround and operate a service around 13:00 to 14:00, but that is at almost the same time as a NXEC service
Furthermore, ICEC dumped this service many years ago as it pretty much ran empty to Dundee, due to no connections from the north
Equally, an early morning London Kings Cross - Aberdeen service, with a late evening Aberdeen - London Kings Cross are not likely to be well used

 

[jopsuk]

There are great doubts about the business case for this service
However, there must surely be time savings?
Their first proposal is for :
Aberdeen - Dundee - Edinburgh - London Kings Cross
How does the end to end times compare, with the fastest NXEC Aberdeen - London Kings Cross service?

There would have to be at least one or two crew changes, the obvious one would be Edinburgh
The next one at York could be performed in the station, but not as an advertised stop
Many other companies already do this type of crew change, so why not Platinum?

Maintenance of units might not be that easy, the only place to swap would be London Kings Cross
Therefore I assume for a basic service there would be four units with one spare

I do agree that in effect it is a duplication of service, but if the service existed then having a non-stop service from the east of Scotland direct to London may be attractive to some people
However, by missing out stations such as York, Doncaster, and Peterborough then that would pretty much reduce the market by a considerable amount
When I worked on HSTs out of Aberdeen, there weren't very many people actually travelling to London, most were either travelling within Scotland or to Newcastle, York, etc

They're shaving about 30-40 minutes off the NXEC services- i.e, so little that it comes down to when you need to be there. As it stands, the two services would leave about an hour either side of the existing first direct train south.

South of Edinburgh their timings don't really save much- as pointed out, how much time do you really save not stopping in Newcastle?

 

[Death]

Hail!

Thoughts anyone?
New OAO on the ECML Edinburgh and beyond - London. Aim for 4hrs 15mins between Waverley and Kings Cross using 180s, with an extra 2hrs 20 to Aberdeen on top of that.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-platinum-appform.pdf
http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s17-platinum-draft-taa.pdf

I only took a brief peek at the proposal and application, but it looks like a complete load of rubbish in my opinion. :roll:

Aside from the proposal to use 180's even in the short-term (Come on...Even a rake of three Pacers would be faster, better and more reliable than that Adelanté b*****ks! ) the journey times are far too excessive to be attractive to any member of the general public, especially when compared with the lower cost and slightly higher speed (Considering ye'd probabally be landing at Stansted) of most no-frills airlines. ad:

4.6 Journey time protection:
Please describe the extent to which the proposed contract affords journey time protection to any services (by establishing maximum journey times, fastest key journey times or maximum key journey times), and explain the justification for the form and extent of protection sought by reference to ORR’s criteria:

To support our business model, we would seek protection on journey times as follows:

• Between Aberdeen and Edinburgh: 140 minutes
• Between Edinburgh and London Kings Cross: 255 minutes
• Overall journey time: 390 minutes

This just proves to me that the new generation of rail companies and OA operators are completely missing the point of rail travel, in my own view. Railways are supposed to be faster than other forms of transport...But Six and a half hours from London to Aberdeen?!?!? Give me just about any 600+cc motorcycle and a minimum requirement of four comfort stops en-route, I'd still be getting there within 4-5 hours...Even on our overcrowded and underfunded motorway system! hock::roll:

If I was making an OAO application for an operators licence myself, the above quoted would read more like:...

4.6 Journey time protection:
Please describe the extent to which the proposed contract affords journey time protection to any services (by establishing maximum journey times, fastest key journey times or maximum key journey times), and explain the justification for the form and extent of protection sought by reference to ORR’s criteria:

To support my XHSR "I'm damned if I'm gonna f*** about" model, I would wish to seek protection on journey times as follows:

• Between Aberdeen and Edinburgh: 5 minutes
• Between Edinburgh and London Kings Cross: 12 minutes
• Overall journey time: 17 minutes

4.8 Specified equipment:
where the proposed contract contains changes to specified equipment (rolling stock), please give full details, including timescales, and the extent to which the vehicle and route acceptance procedure in the Network Code (Part F) has been completed.

The currently proposed plan is to eventually operate the above outlined service using a fleet of Intercity Advanced Passenger Trains (BR Class 370 Type P) with minor design modifications applied to allow for:

• Significantly increased top-speeds up to and exceeding 7,500mph,
• Increased braking capability to allow for maximum safe operational speeds of 10,192mph within the limitations imposed upon existing signalling sections,
• Increase in number of power cars per train from two to six to facilitate improved accelleration and running performance,
• Adjustment of existing technology within power cars to allow for regenerative braking to be applied.

To allow for the production, testing, certification and introduction of the above outlined rolling stock to take place, an initial service will be run using lightly modified Intercity 225 trains (BR Class 91 + Rake of Mark IV coaches) running to a necessarily revised timetable that shall account for the significantly reduced operational speeds (Approx. 200-450mph with slight modifications including conversion of NMDTs to dual-engined Class 43/5s) that may be achieved with this class of rolling stock. Initial roll-out of prototype/test APT-P(HS) units to commence before month 6, with public roll-out and full introduction completed by the end of month 18.

All things considered, maybe it's just as well I'm not an ATOC member. But on the other hand...If I was given the chance to stick my Bloodstained claws into the railways for a year or two; Fossil-fuels, air travel, and private cars would soon become obsolete... hock:

Farewell... 8)
>> Death <<

 

[BlueGrey]

There are great doubts about the business case for this service
However, there must surely be time savings?
Their first proposal is for :
Aberdeen - Dundee - Edinburgh - London Kings Cross
How does the end to end times compare, with the fastest NXEC Aberdeen - London Kings Cross service?

There would have to be at least one or two crew changes, the obvious one would be Edinburgh
The next one at York could be performed in the station, but not as an advertised stop
Many other companies already do this type of crew change, so why not Platinum?

Maintenance of units might not be that easy, the only place to swap would be London Kings Cross
Therefore I assume for a basic service there would be four units with one spare

I do agree that in effect it is a duplication of service, but if the service existed then having a non-stop service from the east of Scotland direct to London may be attractive to some people
However, by missing out stations such as York, Doncaster, and Peterborough then that would pretty much reduce the market by a considerable amount
When I worked on HSTs out of Aberdeen, there weren't very many people actually travelling to London, most were either travelling within Scotland or to Newcastle, York, etc

I would have thought like you pointed out that Edinburgh would be the obvious place for a crew change but I don't know if a second crew change would be required as it may be considered acceptable for the second driver/ guard to work the 4hr 15min run to London. Even if they decided this was too long there will be plenty of recovery time built into the schedule so it would be easy to schedule a stop anywhere on the journey down where the train is likely to be travelling slowly without causing too much delay. And because they are using 180s if the relieving traincrew are already on the train the crew changeover could be made in a loop or even on the mainline at a signal.

 

[djw1981]

Give me just about any 600+cc motorcycle and a minimum requirement of four comfort stops en-route, I'd still be getting there within 4-5 hours...Even on our overcrowded and underfunded motorway system! hock::roll:

At what speed? Edinburgh - Newcastle in about 2h00-2h30 on a clear road, another 2hr down towards Doncaster...... and you are still a good couple of hours from London. Edinburgh-Birmingham down M6 is 4-5hr in clear traffic as well, again a good 2hr drive from London. Google Maps reckons on Edinburgh-London being just over the 7hr mark, and Aberdeen-London being 9h15 region.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Fossil-fuels, air travel, and private cars would soon become obsolete... hock:

Farewell... 8)
>> Death <<

How will your dual engined 43/5 (and why /5?) be fuelled? At those kind of speeds, I'm thinking a nuclear train or a Hydrogen fuel cell train...