Possible electrification of heritage railways?

[JoeGJ1984]

I was joust wondering if any heritage line could get the line electrified so that they could run first generation emus under their own power (and allow forward views if they have this feature). Because lots of heritage lines have the dmus from the same era, but the lack of electrification stops them running emus under their own power.

I do know that there are first-generation emus are knocking about on heritage lines, but have to be hauled by a diesel locomotive, which is not the same, as then it effectively becomes LHCS (you don't get to hear/feel the traction motors, and you can't see fout of the front because the locomotive is in the way). I know that the EOR has one of the Lymington Slammers and, because it used to be an LU line (do they have some of the infrastructure remaining?), perhaps they could actually get the third rail working again and run these Lymington Slammers under their own power, rather than having to haul them.

I think apart from the EOR, it would he hard to electify a heritage line and would only be for a very limited interest thing (after all, steam trains is what generates the most visitors, except for specific enthusiasts).

Perhaps some centre could do a similar set-up to, say, the National Tramway Museum at Crich, and have a number of different emus and with a fairly short section of line, allow people to ride the route on different trains. (This is I think the only likely way that these emus can be running once again under their own power).

I think there would be a place for such a 'museum' and I think realistically electrifying the existing heritage railways isn't feasible except perhaps the EOR.

 

[vectra33]

I was joust wondering if any heritage line could get the line electrified so that they could run first generation emus under their own power (and allow forward views if they have this feature). Because lots of heritage lines have the dmus from the same era, but the lack of electrification stops them running emus under their own power.

I do know that there are first-generation emus are knocking about on heritage lines, but have to be hauled by a diesel locomotive, which is not the same, as then it effectively becomes LHCS (you don't get to hear/feel the traction motors, and you can't see fout of the front because the locomotive is in the way). I know that the EOR has one of the Lymington Slammers and, because it used to be an LU line (do they have some of the infrastructure remaining?), perhaps they could actually get the third rail working again and run these Lymington Slammers under their own power, rather than having to haul them.


I think apart from the EOR, it would he hard to electify a heritage line and would only be for a very limited interest thing (after all, steam trains is what generates the most visitors, except for specific enthusiasts).

Perhaps some centre could do a similar set-up to, say, the National Tramway Museum at Crich, and have a number of different emus and with a fairly short section of line, allow people to ride the route on different trains. (This is I think the only likely way that these emus can be running once again under their own power).

I think there would be a place for such a 'museum' and I think realistically electrifying the existing heritage railways isn't feasible except perhaps the EOR.

I did read recently about a group of enthusiasts looking into using the old dalby test track as a preserved line as this has OH lines already in place.

 

[yorksrob]

I believe the Coventry railway society are planning to install a short section of third rail for their EMU's.

 

[50Fan91]

I can think of several electric locos, not just emus that it'd be great to see running on preserved railways..

 

[YorkshireBear]

I can think of several electric locos, not just emus that it'd be great to see running on preserved railways..

exactly what i was thinking! I am thinking Br blue 8* locos with B&G coaches.

 

[Zoe]

I asked about this once and was told there would be issues with having volunteers working if then railway is electrified. I don't know how true this is.

 

[50Fan91]

I asked about this once and was told there would be issues with having volunteers working if then railway is electrified. I don't know how true this is.

I should think that this would be even more of an issue than the financial aspect, and almost certainly the main reason why something like this could (probably) never happen..


But never say never - who knows what might happen next?

 

[WatcherZero]

Huge infrastructure costs and running costs. Easier way is a battery car that fed power to the EMU so that it was running under its own traction.

 

[yorksrob]

Huge infrastructure costs and running costs. Easier way is a battery car that fed power to the EMU so that it was running under its own traction.

Yeah, I think the East Kent railway are converting an MLV to such a battery car to run their EMU's.

Of course, the best thing would be if rules were relaxed so that such units could make the odd railtour onto the mainline.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Cost and H&S is why it won't happen on an existing railway really.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

That's why I was thinking that somewhere can do a similar setup to places such as the National Tramway Museum and other similar tram/trolleybus museums - which basically have a short stretch of running line electrified with OHLE and visitors can go on unlimited rides on different trams/trolleybuses.

I think there would be scope for somebody somewhere to set up a (new) short bit of track electrified with both OHLE and 3rd rail and run emus/electric locomotives on it so that visitors can get to ride on different trains during their visit - would add something 'different' to the heritage scene and allow these emus/electric locomotives to run as they were intended to run (under their own power, not hauled 'dead').

Would this be feasible?

 

[madannie77]

Yeah, I think the East Kent railway are converting an MLV to such a battery car to run their EMU's.

Of course, the best thing would be if rules were relaxed so that such units could make the odd railtour onto the mainline.

The Eden Valley Railway runs a pair of MLVs with a 4-CEP, the pulling power being entirely battery-electric. One of the MLV's does have a diesel generator in which provides power for lighting & heating in the 4-CEP.

 

[Spagnoletti]

The safety case is enough of a nightmare on its own but add to that the cost of civils & plant for 3rd rail and/or OHLE, plus the significantly higher risk therefore big hike in insurance premiums.
I also can't see how anyone could do this in the scope of their existing light rail/transport & works order - so big money for changing that, upgrading the safety management system, getting traincrew and anyone who goes lineside trained and passed competent.

As someone who regularly crews Diesel hauled services on a pres railway, I also think the additional burden in individual responsibility would push the whole thing towards the 'not fun' corner of the graph.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I asked about this once and was told there would be issues with having volunteers working if then railway is electrified. I don't know how true this is.

Not at all. The fact that someone is being paid or not has no bearing on their competence. It is the standard they are trained and assessed to that matters. This is accepted by HMRI, which is why you have volunteers driving/ firing/ guarding on mainline infrastructure at Grosmont. There's also already volunteers working as mainline support crew, and that includes on electrified lines.

As stated above, set up and public liability insurance costs would be prohibitive, especially as the market would be "niche" to say the least!

 

[Hydro]

getting traincrew and anyone who goes lineside trained and passed competent.

Mainline PTS has about 8 questions apiece to get passed for AC or DC lines. Not a massive undertaking from a general perspective.

The specialist parts come in when the time comes to take isolations, and the safety precautions therein. The railway would have to satisfy the RSSB that their isolation and safety procedures would be sufficient.

Throwing down some con rail is the easy part, the supply part of it may very well be a bit trickier. I can see a redundant diesel engine being using for ETS (1000v DC) and having the voltage stepped down to 750 and plugged into the juice. Then the problems arise of would it be able to manage the current draw of an EMU?

 

[Old Timer]

I was joust wondering if any heritage line could get the line electrified so that they could run first generation emus under their own power (and allow forward views if they have this feature). Because lots of heritage lines have the dmus from the same era, but the lack of electrification stops them running emus under their own power..

All things are possible, however there would be many hurdles to be overcome, such as supervisory control of the OHL, control over feeders, training, the problems of carbon and other build ups on the OHL Equipment and insulators from steam locomotives.

You would need to have a response team to deal with any breaker operations, the traction return bonding would need to be devloped, the signalling and track circuits would need to be immunised, and especially earther. Some mechanical signals may infringe into the OHL envelope requiring alteration or replacement.

Then of course there are the various "safety" issues which are the safety "professionals" equivalent of an alcoholic being given the keys to a brewery.

A section of railway such as that at Asfordby would certainly be feasible but the conversion of any existing preserved railway I believe would be unrealistic both from a technical as well as from historical and photogenic viewpoint.

A more practical alternative would be to use an existing electrified line which had the capacity to handle such trains.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I did hear there was a vague possibility in the future for electric trains to run from Haywards Heath to the Bluebell Railway, part of the line is already there from H.H., I think there is a bridge that would have to be rebuilt. This would be after the East Grinstead connection has been completed.
I Know The Bluebell and also the Gt Central, do have some ex southern region electric units, but these have to hauled of course now by diesels. I experienced that a couple of years ago at Loughbourgh.

 

[Chris125]

I did hear there was a vague possibility in the future for electric trains to run from Haywards Heath to the Bluebell Railway, part of the line is already there from H.H.

Its mentioned from time to time, but its also been said that no detailed analysis has been done - and as this thread shows, when you look at what's needed its just too expensive, too difficult and too risky for no obvious financial return. Its not like 3rd rail EMU preservation has much of a following either, relatively speaking.

Chris

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Re this electric trains thread, were any of the double deck trains that ran on the Dartford Loops I think in the 1950s to 1970s preserved?. I never saw one but heard they were not sucesseful, prob due to the way they were built at the time, IE compartment style with slam doors, unlike the ones used in Europe, which are great, expecially the Swiss ones.

 

[Chris125]

Two Driving Motor's are preserved, but neither are restored.

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Ultimately I think cost will be the main factor. 3rd rail would be the cheapest to install, but would really be of little benefit, when as mentioned, battery powered MLVs can easily be appended units to run them and without particularly affecting the authenticity of the experience.

Centenary would open up a lot more potential, locos like the 8x class as well as EMUs, but the costs would be incredibly high for a relatively small section of the market and since most preserved lines spend most of their time aiming for the steam enthusiast market, putting up wires would seem completely out of place. I imagine that planning permission would be very hard to secure as well - not sure many people would appreciate having centenary erected outside their houses.

 

[Hydro]

Centenary would open up a lot more potential, locos like the 8x class as well as EMUs, but the costs would be incredibly high for a relatively small section of the market and since most preserved lines spend most of their time aiming for the steam enthusiast market, putting up wires would seem completely out of place. I imagine that planning permission would be very hard to secure as well - not sure many people would appreciate having centenary erected outside their houses.

Catenary...?

 

[ACE1888]

Would think it would be a 'night mare' to set up and maintain, best bet is organised mainline running??? Just a thought...
Mind you, never say never, things and attitudes change

 

[LE Greys]

Catenary...?

I've always called it cantenry (can-ten-ree).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With regards to the danger, a 250 lb psi boiler is a pretty dangerous thing if something goes wrong. There hasn't been a boiler explosion on a UK railway since 1922, but there's always the possibility, however remote, that it might happen one day. Yet preservationists operate Merchant Navies and A4s all the time. They also managed to get an Avro Vulcan in the air, and might well end up carrying people in a Lockheed Constellation. If this is possible, running an electrified railway is not so far-fetched.

 

[Chris125]

You cant compare a boiler explosion to electrification - the risks are completely different.

 

[A0]

You cant compare a boiler explosion to electrification - the risks are completely different.

Quite agree. The sheer stupidity of some of the enthusiast fraternity being a prime case in point.

One of the magazines carried a news story not so long ago about one of the Southern lines being brought to a halt by the BTP as a result of a photographer on the line who wanted to get a decent pic of a passing steam railtour - said individual was only a couple of feet away from the 3rd rail.

Boilers are subject to safety checks and inspections. Not sure how you can check the stupditity of an enthusaist before they turn up at an electrified private railway........

 

[Bittern]

Threaten to take away their precious trains.

 

[Eagle]

If Swanage got third rail, as I believe it was down to have in a preliminary sort of way before it got axed, then we could have all sorts of through-workings. (Although I believe it's been cleared by Voyagers in the past too...)

 

[The Decapod]

I think there would be a place for perhaps just one heritage line with 3rd rail electric. It would have to be a line that carries a lot of passengers to justify the cost, but many other things once thought 'impossible' have been achieved in the heritage movement.

Yes, there are extra safety considerations, but there are hundreds of miles of 3rd rail in operation throughout south-east England, so there's a wealth of knowledge about best practice.

As for 25KV overhead on a preserved line, I imagine that would be more difficult but I'm not an electrical expert so maybe someone else could fill in on that!

 

[nferguso]

As for 25KV overhead on a preserved line, I imagine that would be more difficult but I'm not an electrical expert so maybe someone else could fill in on that!

You don't need to be an electrical expert but possession of a modicum of financial common sense might be useful.

Pick a number, say £100,000 and see how many preserved railways could raise that over and above the money they have had to raise to rebuild and operate their lines. Now multiply that by ten, then - ooh say - five to get into the bracket of what they might have to pay, even if they were gifted a lot of surplus kit. Then consider what HAS to be purchased from new - catenery wire I would bet because I would suspect you could not or would not be able to reuse surplus wire from the big railway, and then consider the construction of feeder stations, a link to the national grid and all the professional costs for design, installation, commisisoning and testing.

Then read the very first post in this thread, look in the mirror and ask yourself if you could really consider this to be a practical possibility.

Neil