Possible HS2 Euston station de-scoping

[Peregrine 4903]

Except at Peak times for the extra Liverpool departures?

The xx33 is the peak extra Liverpool departure

 

[Bald Rick]

Except you can't do it continually regardless of the grade separation, because the platforms have to be grouped, i.e. King points , Queen points etc, fanning out. The grade separation allows movements to one side of the station conflict free with the other side, but there are still platform end conflicts to resolve - which you can only do by very careful and accurate timetabling. So if you can use the type of repeating half-hourly pattern I outlined above, you can minimise this conflict, but if you try to timetable departures at different intervals (i.e. to meet a hypothetical platform occupancy target) then it all falls to bits rather rapidly.

I think we’re saying the same thing, but approaching it from a different way. Timetabling 18tph using the layout as the main constraint is well within the capacity, on turnback times we (I) have assumed. And that leaves spare capacity to deal with the (few) conflicts and varying turnback times, and leave some in hand for performance issues.

If I had a spare hour I’d have a go at platforming it. Haven’t done that for a while!

EDIT: took a bit more than an hour, but have platformed 18tph off 9 platforms, leaving one spare, assuming 14 x 20 min turnaround and 4 x ‘30’ min. Needed some compromises on turnarounds (the ‘30’ min turnarounds are 26, 27, 30 and 32), and a few of the 20s are actually 19. But minimum 5 min reoccupation, most are 6-8, and a couple at 15. Platform end conflict arrival +2 min to departure, and minimum of 3 min main line headway. Departure times on a repeating half hourly cycle, but arrivals 1 min later in the 2nd half of the 2nd half hour (the lesser of two evils). Platforms do not repeat in the cycle.

I’ll be honest - it’s not pretty, and I expect there’s a mistake or two, and there’s no account of stock diagrams. I’m sure that someone who actually knows what they are doing could come up with something much better, though. It would also be a lot easier using 10 platforms, and/or only 17tph as per the business case.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder that this thread is in the Infrastructure & Stations section, not the Speculative Ideas section

I've moved a speculative post (and the replies it generated) into the appropriate section: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/should-hs2-have-fewer-tunnels.214102/

If anyone wishes to discuss ideas for potential timetabling, you are very welcome to create a new thread (if there isn't one already) for that too

We do welcome speculative posts to be posted; we just ask that they are posted in the correct place, that's all. Many thanks!

 

[21C101]

How ever does Fenchurch Street manage to cope with 20x 12 car trains an hour on a two track line in the peaks with just four platforms and LUL manage to turn round 30 an hour at Brixton on a two track line with just two platforms?

Yes of course intercity trains have longer turnround times, but come on, ten platforms for 18 an hour at Euston is still generous, especially as a future increase above 18 per hour is impracticable.

Also HS2 is in some regards a "high speed metro" with just two tracks and all trains having an identical stopping pattern of calling at Old Oak and Birmingham International. Not exactly the LCDR main line out of Victoria where a myriad of stopping patterns have to be fitted onto two tracks to from Victoria to Shortlands.

It's a nice to have but if planners and operators having a slightly harder job means that some cancer patients get extra funding or more lines elsewhere get investment, I'm all for cutting back to ten platforms, especially as it appears that it makes the whole station far easier to construct.

 

[CW2]

It's a nice to have but if planners and operators having a slightly harder job means that some cancer patients get extra funding or more lines elsewhere get investment, I'm all for cutting back to ten platforms, especially as it appears that it makes the whole station far easier to construct.

Sorry but it doesn't work like that, so you are going to be disappointed. It's not one big cake that gets divided up according to priorities, rather money will be borrowed / created by the Government to pay for HS2, based on the anticipated future income. Cutting back HS2 platforms at Euston may well reduce the number of trains able to run and / or the levels of reliability and punctuality of those services, thus reducing future income.

 

[Class 170101]

Sorry but it doesn't work like that, so you are going to be disappointed. It's not one big cake that gets divided up according to priorities, rather money will be borrowed / created by the Government to pay for HS2, based on the anticipated future income. Cutting back HS2 platforms at Euston may well reduce the number of trains able to run and / or the levels of reliability and punctuality of those services, thus reducing future income.

I expect the government is reducing expenditure but will still expect the industry to 'produce' an 18tph timetable with infrastructure as provided (ie 9 platforms). The delays and performance issue will be a future government to grapple with / resolve. Just look at the way the East Coast was wired in the late 1980s and early 1990s and is now being upgraded some 25 to 30 years on. Who in government then is still in government now?

 

[CW2]

I expect the government is reducing expenditure but will still expect the industry to 'produce' an 18tph timetable with infrastructure as provided (ie 9 platforms). The delays and performance issue will be a future government to grapple with / resolve. Just look at the way the East Coast was wired in the late 1980s and early 1990s and is now being upgraded some 25 to 30 years on. Who in government then is still in government now?

The Government will need to face up to the hard choices: if you reduce expenditure on Euston station then you will need to reduce the maximum number of trains per hour and / or accept a lower level of reliability on the HS2 network. There is no hiding from that, and they need to be open and honest with the public as to the choices they are making and the reasons for them.

 

[Bald Rick]

I expect the government is reducing expenditure but will still expect the industry to 'produce' an 18tph timetable with infrastructure as provided (ie 9 platforms).

10 platforms.

 

[paul1609]

The Government will need to face up to the hard choices: if you reduce expenditure on Euston station then you will need to reduce the maximum number of trains per hour and / or accept a lower level of reliability on the HS2 network. There is no hiding from that, and they need to be open and honest with the public as to the choices they are making and the reasons for them.

The pennies probably dropped in the treasury that the rail industry is very rarely able to deliver on its projects anyway:
Thameslink,
Cross Rail
Great Western Electrification
West Coast Modernisation
Cross Manchester Link
DC power fiascos
Picadilly Line
I could go on.

 

[AM9]

Though if you're spending a huge amount on fancy high speed trains, it's not exactly going to cost hugely more to order them with windows spaced to your intended seating layout.
So that passengers get a better view of the tunnel walls.
Yes, you, SNCF. Misaligned seating in First Class is unacceptable.

The pennies probably dropped in the treasury that the rail industry is very rarely able to deliver on its projects anyway:
Thameslink,
Cross Rail
Great Western Electrification
West Coast Modernisation
Cross Manchester Link
DC power fiascos
Picadilly Line
I could go on.

If DfT were to learn anything, it should be that repeatedly paring and descoping of projects often increases the risk of failure. Like so many top down critics, they don't understand that no more than 2 of the 3 'bests' * can be delivered simultaneously.

* Performance, Price & Timescale

 

[Class 170101]

10 platforms.

I know but the cynic in me....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know but the cynic in me....

How many platforms are used by Avanti at Euston (9tph normally - 3 Brum, 3 Manc, Glasgow, North Wales and Liverpool) these days?

 

[Bald Rick]

How many platforms are used by Avanti at Euston (9tph normally - 3 Brum, 3 Manc, Glasgow, North Wales and Liverpool) these days?

Difficult to say, as ‘these days’ havent really existed for most of the last year and won’t for another 6 months at least.

However in the base plan Avanti do make use of all of 1-7 and 12-16. However they don’t need to. Turnarounds vary from 25 minutes to an hour, occasionally more. There is some splitting and joining which causes platforms to be occupied for longer than ‘normal’. And of course the sleepers and the LNWR peak gets in the way in the morning. I reckon the 9/10 in the standard hour could be done off 8 platforms easily.

 

[Elecman]

How many platforms are used by Avanti at Euston (9tph normally - 3 Brum, 3 Manc, Glasgow, North Wales and Liverpool) these days?

Plus the 2nd Scotland via Brum

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Plus the 2nd Scotland via Brum

That's included as one of the 3 brums.