Post HST Highland Mainline Timetable?

[JohnR]

My understanding is that you can obtain draft timetables from Hitrans/Nestrans/Tactran. Failing that try Scotrail, Transport Scotland or even your MSP, local authority or community council. HML is definitely out there for consultation at the moment, I don't use Aberdeen trains so haven't been in touch about those.

There is a presentation on the TacTran website which includes some details. However, the only detailed timetable is for the HML, and they only discuss the Glasgow-Aberdeen trains for the NE. Its not clear from the presentation slides exactly what will be happening when, as they talk about what they envisage the 2019 TT will be, but the diagram suggests what the 2018 TT will be....

Also, some interesting figures on station usage, more precisely destinations to/from each major station.

 

[BRX]

There is a presentation on the TacTran website which includes some details. However, the only detailed timetable is for the HML, and they only discuss the Glasgow-Aberdeen trains for the NE. Its not clear from the presentation slides exactly what will be happening when, as they talk about what they envisage the 2019 TT will be, but the diagram suggests what the 2018 TT will be....

Also, some interesting figures on station usage, more precisely destinations to/from each major station.

Had a look at that. Interesting to see that Muir of Ord and Beauly are in the top 10 destinations from Inverness.

On the draft n-bound table they highlight the first service of the day, starting from Perth, with the comment
"Clash with freight and soutbound services means an 04:40 departure from Glasgow and 4hr+ journey time."

Does that mean that they are trying to establish a connecting service from Glasgow - something that doesn't exist at the moment?

Seeing how closely this service is followed by the sleeper makes me wonder if a sensible solution would be instead to run the sleeper with a couple of day coaches N of Edinburgh, like the Fort William arrangement. Day passengers are already allowed to use it from Kingussie (I think?) - why not from previous stations?

An 07.56 vs 08.30 arrival in Inverness doesn't seem to offer much advantage.

 

[jamieintercity]

I don't know if I'm putting this in the right place or whether it should get its own thread but the question I'm asking is:

will the hourly Glasgow QST to arbroath service still going ahead next may, if so what will the service/calling pattern be like and what time will the first/last train arrive/depart arbroath/glasgow

 

[JohnR]

I don't know if I'm putting this in the right place or whether it should get its own thread but the question I'm asking is:

will the hourly Glasgow QST to arbroath service still going ahead next may, if so what will the service/calling pattern be like and what time will the first/last train arrive/depart arbroath/glasgow

The presentation slides to TACTRAN were contradictory on this. The image suggested it would start in 2018, while the accompanying text said it would start as an hourly arbroath-edinburgh service before switching to Glasgow in 2019.

There was no timetable, but the stopping pattern seemed to be Arbroath-Carnoustie-Monifieth-Broughty Ferry-Dundee-Invergowrie-Perth-Gleneagles-Dunblane-Bridge of Allan-Stirling-Glasgow

 

[Stopper]

An increase in service at Monifieth is definitely a good thing, it’s a reasonable sized place, as is the Broughty Ferry area.
Invergowrie probably getting a generous hourly service, probably meaning that it will be completely off the Aberdeen services. That should be the case for Bridge of Allan/Dunblane too, from both the Inverness/Aberdeen services. Gleneagles might remain though, not sure. I’m not sure if Carnoustie will remain on Aberdeen services or not.

 

[JohnR]

An increase in service at Monifieth is definitely a good thing, it’s a reasonable sized place, as is the Broughty Ferry area.
Invergowrie probably getting a generous hourly service, probably meaning that it will be completely off the Aberdeen services. That should be the case for Bridge of Allan/Dunblane too, from both the Inverness/Aberdeen services. Gleneagles might remain though, not sure. I’m not sure if Carnoustie will remain on Aberdeen services or not.

From the presentation, the eventual fast service will be Stirling-Perth-Dundee-Arbroath-Montrose-Stonehaven-Aberdeen.

 

[backontrack]

It has always been pretty clear that when the extra services start running the only stations served by all services will be Pitlochry and Aviemore.

A roughly 1tp2h service (similar to now) for Kingussie and Dunkeld and less frequent calls for Blair Atholl, Dalwhinnie, Newtonmore and Carrbridge.

Hmm. I may just be playing around - they may split it up so that the smaller four have services to Kingussie and Dunkeld - but I'm keen to guess and infer as to which trains will serve which stations.

Firstly, it doesn't make sense stopping Kingussie services at Newtonmore when the two are so close together. So therefore Newtonmore will probably only feature on Dunkeld services.

Similarly, it doesn't make too much sense having three stops in Tummel & Breadalbane and only one in the Cairngorms - so I imagine that Blair Atholl will feature only on services calling at Kingussie.

Right now, very few services call at both Newtonmore and Dalwhinnie. If this were to continue, then surely Dalwhinnie would only be served by Kingussie trains...

...leaving Carrbridge to only be served by Dunkeld services.

(This is probably all wrong lol )

 

[Class 170101]

http://www.tactran.gov.uk/documents/4GSSPHMLProjectandTimetableDev.pdf

Pages 8 and 9 of the link above give a draft timetable for the Highland Main Line.

 

[Clansman]

Irritating that there's still a focus to serve Kirkcaldy on all Edinburgh/Inverness services when you could run non stop from Perth to Haymarket and actually compete with road travel journey times for once.

 

[Altnabreac]

Irritating that there's still a focus to serve Kirkcaldy on all Edinburgh/Inverness services when you could run non stop from Perth to Haymarket and actually compete with road travel journey times for once.

Kirkcaldy has a larger population than both Perth and Inverness and serves as access to a much larger area as well.

I suspect there is a decent amount of business from Fife - Inverness that is larger than would be gained by the small time saving from missing it out.

 

[47271]

Some crafty means of cutting the Kirkcaldy stop from the early evening Edinburgh-Inverness (1739 in the draft) service wouldn't go amiss amongst 99% of HML passengers however. The extra capacity offered by the HSTs might just prevent the irritating levels of short distance overcrowding on this train, and me having to stand so that Fife commuters can sit, but I doubt it.

 

[InOban]

In terms of timing, more would be gained by an engineering blitz between ladybank and Perth. 18 miles of generally straightish track should take no more than 15 minutes, not 21+.

 

[najaB]

In terms of timing, more would be gained by an engineering blitz between ladybank and Perth. 18 miles of generally straightish track should take no more than 15 minutes, not 21+.

I've only gone that way a couple of times but it never feels like the train is going as fast as it could be going so I wonder if it's engineering or paperwork that's holding speeds back?

 

[Clansman]

Kirkcaldy has a larger population than both Perth and Inverness and serves as access to a much larger area as well.

I suspect there is a decent amount of business from Fife - Inverness that is larger than would be gained by the small time saving from missing it out.

If population was a serious factor then Kirkcaldy wouldn't see greater services to Inverness than what Glasgow does, despite the fact that Kirkcaldy's largest market for anywhere on the Highland Mainline is Perth.

By all means maintain a couple of calls there, but there's little to no damage to be done to the Fife - Inverness market by ommitting Kirkcaldy from certain services.

In terms of timing, more would be gained by an engineering blitz between ladybank and Perth. 18 miles of generally straightish track should take no more than 15 minutes, not 21+.

Definitley. If you could get Hilton Jn to Newburgh relayed and doubled with a 100mph speed limit, and Ladybank platform 1 connected to the Perth branch, you would go a long way to shred journey times on that stretch which could see Edinburgh journey times from Perth be cut to around an hour or less.

 

[najaB]

Definitley. If you could get Hilton Jn to Newburgh relayed and doubled with a 100mph speed limit, and Ladybank platform 1 connected to the Perth branch...

That's way more than an engineering blitz!

 

[Clansman]

That's way more than an engineering blitz!

I'll file that one under fantasy.

When you've suffered that line regularly for years, it's hard to think like a reasonable human being!

 

[InOban]

I didn't mention doubling it at all,let alone throughout. That would definitely take it into fantasy land. I don't know what state the track and formation are in, but there is no reason why the single track can't be built to, and operated at, 100mph.

 

[Clansman]

I didn't mention doubling it at all,let alone throughout. That would definitely take it into fantasy land. I don't know what state the track and formation are in, but there is no reason why the single track can't be built to, and operated at, 100mph.

It's by no means impossible, but the only hope you're going to get 100mph on Perth to Ladybank is between Bridge of Earn and Newburgh, which should be the first port of call for any doubling or speed increases.

 

[najaB]

I don't know what state the track and formation are in, but there is no reason why the single track can't be built to, and operated at, 100mph.

You get more bang for the buck by raising the low-speed sections than increasing the top speeds. There are some 40-60mph sections that could benefit with raising to 70mph to make the line as close as possible to 70mph throughout.

 

[Stopper]

I’ve wanted Inverness services to run fast Haymarket-Perth for a long time. If it’s going to stop before then though, I wouldn’t mind it being Kirkcaldy, rather than stations like Ladybank and Edinburgh Gateway where nobody ever seems to get on or off. I hope regular stopping between Edinburgh and Perth doesn’t continue being a thing though.

 

[InOban]

You get more bang for the buck by raising the low-speed sections than increasing the top speeds. There are some 40-60mph sections that could benefit with raising to 70mph to make the line as close as possible to 70mph throughout.

Why are some sections limited to 40-60mph? Apart, of course from Hilton and Ladybank junctions.

 

[najaB]

Why are some sections limited to 40-60mph? Apart, of course from Hilton and Ladybank junctions.

That is a *very* good question, it never feels like the train is going as fast as it could be so it may just be paperwork or it could be weak structures/formation. We could really benefit from a structures engineer/NR bod to comment.

 

[gsnedders]

That is a *very* good question, it never feels like the train is going as fast as it could be so it may just be paperwork or it could be weak structures/formation. We could really benefit from a structures engineer/NR bod to comment.

My memory (and, AFAIK, I've only once been down the line!) is that the speed restrictions mostly coincide with bridges, which suggest it is the bridges that are the limitation. (But I'm strongly emphasising my memory there, because I don't have that much faith in being right here.)

 

[Trackbedjolly]

The formation may not be that good along there as it is underlain by alluvium, silt or clay. I did take part in a survey to provide additional track drainage in 1998 near Bridge of Earn former station. Whether improved drainage alone is enough to raise the linespeed I don't know. Reinforcement may also be required and if so this could be done during normal track renewal but as this is normally carried out over short sections of a few hundred yards at a time it would take many years to get the whole line done if that were necessary.

 

[InOban]

Which is why a properly planned blockade would be the most efficient way.

 

[47271]

I've wasted many hours trundling along this line so you'd think that I'd know where the restrictions are. I'm afraid I don't, and to the passenger it feels like you rarely get above 50mph with very little variation in speed. The only investment I'm aware of over the past ten years is replacement of the last remaining sections of jointed track.

Let's also not forget that at over 15 miles it's the longest uninterrupted section of single line between Edinburgh and Inverness.

I don't understand why it isn't considered a greater strategic priority.

 

[Clansman]

I just avoid the whole line like a plague and just get a lift to/from Inverkeithing when I can.

Shaves the journey to/from Edinburgh down to around 50 odd minutes at best.

 

[mcmad]

I've wasted many hours trundling along this line so you'd think that I'd know where the restrictions are. I'm afraid I don't, and to the passenger it feels like you rarely get above 50mph with very little variation in speed. .

It looks to be mainly 70 throughout, with a couple of slower (50/55mph) sections around the curves at Newbridge and the last few miles at the Hilton end, possibly due to the large number of farm crossings.

 

[Far north 37]

Kirkcaldy has a larger population than both Perth and Inverness and serves as access to a much larger area as well.

I suspect there is a decent amount of business from Fife - Inverness that is larger than would be gained by the small time saving from missing it out.

Inverness actually has a larger population than kirkcaldy by ten thousand the offical population quoted online for inverness doesnt include culloden smithton and westhill for some reason but they are part of inverness giving it a population of over 59000 ten thousand more than kirkcaldy.

 

[Altnabreac]

Inverness actually has a larger population than kirkcaldy by ten thousand the offical population quoted online for inverness doesnt include culloden smithton and westhill for some reason but they are part of inverness giving it a population of over 59000 ten thousand more than kirkcaldy.

Depends on exactly how you define the locality / settlement. I suspect the next NRS figures will combine Culloden etc into the Inverness locality but they are a similar distance from central Inverness as Glenrothes is from Kirkcaldy.

My general point is that central Fife is as large a population and a larger rail market than either Perth or Kirkcaldy and that a stop is needed in central Fife to link northwards to both Perth and the HML.