• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

P

Pendomonium

Member
Joined
24 Aug 2024
Messages
21
Location
Tring
LordFlashheart said:
Thanks for the explanation. Why couldn't the other pantograph be used?

Still no resolution to the never working seat reservations, which seems to be related to either the short turnrounds at Euston or joining sets at Chester
Click to expand...
Not sure what the exact fault was, but it could not be used.
 
N

notadriver

Established Member
Joined
1 Oct 2010
Messages
3,699
Pendomonium said:
As evident by the 10 car run from EUS.... yes. Even with one gen set out on one of the units. Takes a while to get going, but they do get there.


No. The TMS is hard wired for 125 mph max. Its up to the driver to set the TMS speed limiter to the required lower value as appropriate.
Click to expand...

Might be an idea to have it default to 110 mph when logging in since it can’t be turned off.
 
P

Pendomonium

Member
Joined
24 Aug 2024
Messages
21
Location
Tring
notadriver said:
Might be an idea to have it default to 110 mph when logging in since it can’t be turned off.
Click to expand...
Such alterations to the TMS software require funding & development. Which isnt available. Its still a pipe dream, but speeds higher than 110 will be needed if the MU speed profiles are ever introduced. Which would in theory make any amendment to speed set now be temporary & therefore definitely not worth the expense.
 
C

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,534
Pendomonium said:
Such alterations to the TMS software require funding & development. Which isnt available. Its still a pipe dream, but speeds higher than 110 will be needed if the MU speed profiles are ever introduced. Which would in theory make any amendment to speed set now be temporary & therefore definitely not worth the expense.
Click to expand...
Especially when you remember that the majority of trains in the UK have no form of speed limiter fitted at all - and of those that do most only cut off at the maximum permitted speed for that unit and don't take into account if the line speed is lower.

If what are traditionally amongst the highest paid drivers in the industry can't be trusted to stick to 110 without computer intervention, that would be very concerning. And I say that as a driver with 6 different tractions on their card with 4 different top speeds to remember.
 
N

notadriver

Established Member
Joined
1 Oct 2010
Messages
3,699
Pendomonium said:
Such alterations to the TMS software require funding & development. Which isnt available. Its still a pipe dream, but speeds higher than 110 will be needed if the MU speed profiles are ever introduced. Which would in theory make any amendment to speed set now be temporary & therefore definitely not worth the expense.
Click to expand...

It might do - but all it requires is the default setting on login to be 110. It should still be able to be increased to 125 in the normal way. For example if a driver logs out and a new driver logs in on changeover it defaults back to 125. It could be 110 to make things simpler.

The speed limiter permanently on setting was part of a TMS update.
 
P

Pendomonium

Member
Joined
24 Aug 2024
Messages
21
Location
Tring
craigybagel said:
Especially when you remember that the majority of trains in the UK have no form of speed limiter fitted at all - and of those that do most only cut off at the maximum permitted speed for that unit and don't take into account if the line speed is lower.

If what are traditionally amongst the highest paid drivers in the industry can't be trusted to stick to 110 without computer intervention, that would be very concerning. And I say that as a driver with 6 different tractions on their card with 4 different top speeds to remember.
Click to expand...
Sticking to 110 isn't the issue. Its the places where significantly lower speeds are absolutely essential, but where drivers have been used to proceeding at much higher speeds on one single type of traction. Its interesting your take on the traction/road knowledge side of things & its something I have pondered. Some drivers (a decreasing number) cut their teeth on tap changers & class 90s & progressed to 390s & 221s. They had little problem adjusting to the new differential speeds that were introduced in fits and starts & eventually became very long stretches of contstant thrash. There are now a significant number of drivers that never experienced the switchover to EPS & also rarely have to drive to PS speeds due to fleet reliability. It is going to be interesting to see how drivers cope with a brand new speed profile that is different again from PS & requires far more speed step downs & step ups utilising a more maximum effort style of driving than the more defensive approach taught. But then I guess thats why they have been "traditionally amongst the highest paid". Its a slight tangent, but it is part of the bigger picture of introducing the 805 & 807 along with the possible prospect of MU speed profiles.

notadriver said:
It might do - but all it requires is the default setting on login to be 110. It should still be able to be increased to 125 in the normal way. For example if a driver logs out and a new driver logs in on changeover it defaults back to 125. It could be 110 to make things simpler.

The speed limiter permanently on setting was part of a TMS update.
Click to expand...
"all it requires" = expense. It wont happen unless the DfT order it.
 
C

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,534
Pendomonium said:
Sticking to 110 isn't the issue. Its the places where significantly lower speeds are absolutely essential, but where drivers have been used to proceeding at much higher speeds on one single type of traction. Its interesting your take on the traction/road knowledge side of things & its something I have pondered. Some drivers (a decreasing number) cut their teeth on tap changers & class 90s & progressed to 390s & 221s. They had little problem adjusting to the new differential speeds that were introduced in fits and starts & eventually became very long stretches of contstant thrash. There are now a significant number of drivers that never experienced the switchover to EPS & also rarely have to drive to PS speeds due to fleet reliability. It is going to be interesting to see how drivers cope with a brand new speed profile that is different again from PS & requires far more speed step downs & step ups utilising a more maximum effort style of driving than the more defensive approach taught. But then I guess thats why they have been "traditionally amongst the highest paid". Its a slight tangent, but it is part of the bigger picture of introducing the 805 & 807 along with the possible prospect of MU speed profiles.
Click to expand...
Indeed, which is why I don't believe a 110 limiter is necessary - drivers should be picking up the knowledge of where the speed limit is 110 (be that as PS or MU or whatever) and acting accordingly, the same as they should with any other speed.
I am sympathetic to the challenges of having to follow speeds they rarely used in the past - we went through a similar process with new traction at our place where we had to use PS speeds that never applied with our fleet before, but it turned out to be surprisingly easy in the end. I think most of us picked up these new (to us) speeds at the same time as learning that new traction. I hope the folks at Avanti find the transition similarly smooth - especially as it's knowledge they should have already held for those rare times tilt wasn't working - though ideally they'll be learning the MU speeds instead of PS as soon as possible!
 
Railperf

Railperf

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
3,170
Eventually ETCS where installed will provide absolute speed supervision. Today, the biggest overspeed risk is very low speed TSRs on high-speed track and diverging switches where the turnout speed is much lower than the main route. Indeed recent incidents at Peterborough prove the point. The only reported incident of gross overspeeding above 125mph resulted in a blanket 125mph limiter being fitted to Hitachi 80x units, but I'm not aware of any other 125mph capable trains having a limiter fitted.
 
P

Pendomonium

Member
Joined
24 Aug 2024
Messages
21
Location
Tring
craigybagel said:
Indeed, which is why I don't believe a 110 limiter is necessary - drivers should be picking up the knowledge of where the speed limit is 110 (be that as PS or MU or whatever) and acting accordingly, the same as they should with any other speed.
I am sympathetic to the challenges of having to follow speeds they rarely used in the past - we went through a similar process with new traction at our place where we had to use PS speeds that never applied with our fleet before, but it turned out to be surprisingly easy in the end. I think most of us picked up these new (to us) speeds at the same time as learning that new traction. I hope the folks at Avanti find the transition similarly smooth - especially as it's knowledge they should have already held for those rare times tilt wasn't working - though ideally they'll be learning the MU speeds instead of PS as soon as possible!
Click to expand...
Whilst PS speeds are part of the route knowledge MU speed profiles are not known to drivers on the WCML. The boards remain firmly covered (& will probably do so for a long time). Further to this, the MU speed profiles will interfere with the existing approach to PS speeds as the step downs happen at different locations to where a train doing PS would. Every driver that signs 805/807 traction will be required to re learn the entire speed profile which apparently involves 80 odd changes. I too hope the transition is smooth & it was suggested introducing MU speeds in predictable stages. Maybe one day we will see.

Railperf said:
Eventually ETCS where installed will provide absolute speed supervision. Today, the biggest overspeed risk is very low speed TSRs on high-speed track and diverging switches where the turnout speed is much lower than the main route. Indeed recent incidents at Peterborough prove the point. The only reported incident of gross overspeeding above 125mph resulted in a blanket 125mph limiter being fitted to Hitachi 80x units, but I'm not aware of any other 125mph capable trains having a limiter fitted.
Click to expand...
The TMS on the 390 is hard wired to produce a warning the moment 127 mph is reached.
 
C

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,534
Pendomonium said:
Whilst PS speeds are part of the route knowledge MU speed profiles are not known to drivers on the WCML. The boards remain firmly covered (& will probably do so for a long time). Further to this, the MU speed profiles will interfere with the existing approach to PS speeds as the step downs happen at different locations to where a train doing PS would. Every driver that signs 805/807 traction will be required to re learn the entire speed profile which apparently involves 80 odd changes. I too hope the transition is smooth & it was suggested introducing MU speeds in predictable stages. Maybe one day we will see.
Click to expand...
Now that does sound challenging alright. Good luck to them, though I'm sure they're all well capable.
Railperf said:
Eventually ETCS where installed will provide absolute The only reported incident of gross overspeeding above 125mph resulted in a blanket 125mph limiter being fitted to Hitachi 80x units, but I'm not aware of any other 125mph capable trains having a limiter fitted.
Click to expand...
67s allegedly do - if I remember correctly it's something like power off at 128 and brakes dumped at 130. I say allegedly as I doubt many have tried! The existence of this has amused me ever since I first found out about it....
 
Railperf

Railperf

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
3,170
Pendomonium said:
Whilst PS speeds are part of the route knowledge MU speed profiles are not known to drivers on the WCML. The boards remain firmly covered (& will probably do so for a long time). Further to this, the MU speed profiles will interfere with the existing approach to PS speeds as the step downs happen at different locations to where a train doing PS would. Every driver that signs 805/807 traction will be required to re learn the entire speed profile which apparently involves 80 odd changes. I too hope the transition is smooth & it was suggested introducing MU speeds in predictable stages. Maybe one day we will see.


The TMS on the 390 is hard wired to produce a warning the moment 127 mph is reached.
Click to expand...
A friend of mine signs the whole ECML from Kings Cross to Edinburgh and has to remember all the limits, signals, slow line speeds junction speeds platform entry speeds. In addition to the classroom time, a minimum 300 hrs supervised driving is required before someone is qualified to drive alone. That is a lot of training!
It is crazy however that in this day and age, we don't have some sort of signal and speed limit indication in the cab as standard by now + and I mean just a simple indication - a system without intervention - just displaying upcoming speed limits and signal aspects. Though I think LNER drivers have iPads that might display some of this info.
 
8

800001

Established Member
Joined
24 Oct 2015
Messages
5,361
Railperf said:
A friend of mine signs the whole ECML from Kings Cross to Edinburgh and has to remember all the limits, signals, slow line speeds junction speeds platform entry speeds. In addition to the classroom time, a minimum 300 hrs supervised driving is required before someone is qualified to drive alone. That is a lot of training!
It is crazy however that in this day and age, we don't have some sort of signal and speed limit indication in the cab as standard by now + and I mean just a simple indication - a system without intervention - just displaying upcoming speed limits and signal aspects. Though I think LNER drivers have iPads that might display some of this info.
Click to expand...
The iPad for LNER to best of knowledge does not display speed limits etc.

It advises of the train formation, the calling points, eta to next station, and actively announces to driver that ‘next station is approaching’.

The iPad and system they use is ‘advisory’ and drivers do not have to use the iPad if they do want to.
 
S

SansHache

Member
Joined
31 Mar 2015
Messages
161
Location
Manchester
Pendomonium said:
Whilst PS speeds are part of the route knowledge MU speed profiles are not known to drivers on the WCML. The boards remain firmly covered (& will probably do so for a long time). Further to this, the MU speed profiles will interfere with the existing approach to PS speeds as the step downs happen at different locations to where a train doing PS would. Every driver that signs 805/807 traction will be required to re learn the entire speed profile which apparently involves 80 odd changes. I too hope the transition is smooth & it was suggested introducing MU speeds in predictable stages. Maybe one day we will see.


The TMS on the 390 is hard wired to produce a warning the moment 127 mph is reached.
Click to expand...
In addition the Tractive Effort on Class 390 is automatically ramped down to zero over the speed range from 125mph to 127mph. This feature was introduced after a train was clocked at 135mph as exiting a tunnel in the early years of operation with Tilt/TASS isolated. Provision to revert to 140mph maximum speed is provided by a hard-wired input to the Traction electronics.
 
Railperf

Railperf

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
3,170
Wowser, the 807's really are a step up in the 805s performance wise - 0-100mph in just over 1.5 mins. The acceleration is relentless. Be interesting to see how quickly they will get to 125mph. For now 110mph is sub 2 mins.
From Rugby to Coventry seem to be running at 110mph max rather than the 125 MU allowance.
 
Last edited:
hexagon789

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
17,057
Location
Glasgow
The_Train said:
Easily done! Hopefully one of the fleet gets some sort of update that causes them to become /1's in the future :D
Click to expand...
Arguably the main thing anyway is that an additional new train is in service - a positive either way even if an 805 rather than 807! ;)
 
The_Train

The_Train

Established Member
Joined
2 Jun 2018
Messages
4,783
hexagon789 said:
Arguably the main thing anyway is that an additional new train is in service - a positive either way even if an 805 rather than 807! ;)
Click to expand...
Is 805006 in service today? Nothing allocated on RTT and the service listed above (1416 EUS-BHM) is actually 807006 :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Top