Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[hexagon789]

could the standard 800 series design be modified to tilt in order to be able to achieve 125?

I assume you mean run at EPS speeds rather than 125mph as the train is capable of 140mph.

May 22 is next year...

I read that as May the 22nd rather than May 2022!

@Scotrail88 apologies if that is what you meant

 

[Scotrail88]

I assume you mean run at EPS speeds rather than 125mph as the train is capable of 140mph.


I read that as May the 22nd rather than May 2022!

@Scotrail88 apologies if that is what you meant

Yes - May 2022 was the intention.
Was thinking that if they are in build now, then hopefully 6 months for the first to arrive and training to commence. Next May should be realistic for some to enter traffic.

Not sure if been spoke about, or worthwhile elsewhere but be good for capacity for the Voyagers to be cascaded - my wish is cross country but hope to hear plans soon

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes - May 2022 was the intention.
Was thinking that if they are in build now, then hopefully 6 months for the first to arrive and training to commence. Next May should be realistic for some to enter traffic.

Not sure if been spoke about, or worthwhile elsewhere but be good for capacity for the Voyagers to be cascaded - my wish is cross country but hope to hear plans soon

There have probably been dozens of separate threads here about future WC Voyager use. Certainly far too many to list...

 

[hexagon789]

Yes - May 2022 was the intention.
Was thinking that if they are in build now, then hopefully 6 months for the first to arrive and training to commence. Next May should be realistic for some to enter traffic.

Not sure if been spoke about, or worthwhile elsewhere but be good for capacity for the Voyagers to be cascaded - my wish is cross country but hope to hear plans soon

Then yes, May 2022 seems perfectly reasonable. Apologies for the misunderstanding earlier, I totally read that as the calendar date rather than year!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

just saying, if it could be done, surely Hitachi could mode the 805/807 design to be able to tilt so they wouldn't need to slow to 110 for most of the trip

Don't know about Hitachi, but Alstom talk about a high-speed design which can tilt.
The DfT spec for IEP definitely didn't request a tilt option, so it wasn't offered.
Adding tilt for the UK gauge is certainly not trivial.

 

[Aictos]

Strictly, it's between Carlisle-Carstairs-Edinburgh for the ECML diversions.
But LNER operates a regular Edinburgh-Carstairs-Glasgow Central leg as well, so the whole WCML route north of Carlisle must be cleared.
TPE has also run 802s on test on parts of the WCML in the northwest, but I'm not sure they covered the whole route north of Crewe.

I wouldn't say a daily service is a regular leg, regular leg I believe is more then 1tpd.

Unit allocations to service groups will be rejigged.
As others have pointed out several times 807s will operate London Euston to Liverpool Lime Street & Blackpool North (and some Birmingham New Street) services. This will release some voyagers (leaving franchise) and some 9car 390s which be cascaded to run the Euston - New Street - Scotland services releasing more Voyagers (leaving franchise). There will be no 807 running on the ECML north of Preston.
805s will replace voyagers directly on the Chester, North Wales and Shrewsbury services, running on electric south of Crewe/Wolverhampton.

Just to point out that Preston isn't located on the ECML but rather the WCML, unless you're confusing Newcastle with Preston?

 

[hexagon789]

Don't know about Hitachi, but Alstom talk about a high-speed design which can tilt.
The DfT spec for IEP definitely didn't request a tilt option, so it wasn't offered.
Adding tilt for the UK gauge is certainly not trivial.

They make ones that tilt for Japan, I'm sure they could do it but it would be interesting to see how straightforward it would be to fit such a design into the GB loading gauge.

 

[Wapps]

The “Class 80T”.

They make ones that tilt for Japan, I'm sure they could do it but it would be interesting to see how straightforward it would be to fit such a design into the GB loading gauge.

The “Class 80T”.

 

[craigybagel]

could the standard 800 series design be modified to tilt in order to be able to achieve 125?

just saying, if it could be done, surely Hitachi could mode the 805/807 design to be able to tilt so they wouldn't need to slow to 110 for most of the trip

They make ones that tilt for Japan, I'm sure they could do it but it would be interesting to see how straightforward it would be to fit such a design into the GB loading gauge.

Could it be done? Probably.

Is it worth the extra cost (both in terms of the upfront extra build cost of the units and the ongoing costs for the extra maintenance and fuel/electricity to move all the extra weight? Probably not, given the choice Avanti have made.

 

[221101 Voyager]

Could it be done? Probably.

Is it worth the extra cost (both in terms of the upfront extra build cost of the units and the ongoing costs for the extra maintenance and fuel/electricity to move all the extra weight? Probably not, given the choice Avanti have made.

If the WCML ran at 140mph then tilt would've been worthwhile, as one, 390s would've been used to their full potential, just like a tilting 80x would've done.

Also has the first 805/07 been built yet?

 

[Domh245]

Also has the first 805/07 been built yet?

Some shells have been delivered to Newton Aycliffe, but not sure how progressed those are now, nor if the rest of the fleet will be using imported shells or N.A. built ones

 

[gallafent]

just saying, if it could be done, surely Hitachi could mode the 805/807 design to be able to tilt so they wouldn't need to slow to 110 for most of the trip

A tilting “A-train” was definitely on the cards at one point (though not for the UK, instead for Taiwan) more than a decade ago (from links from the wikipedia page, for example the link below).

The profile of the UK AT-300 bodies feels far too spacious to fit into the UK loading gauge if it tilted, so they'd definitely be a very different beast from any of the A-trains that have been ordered for the UK so far.

So for some definition of “could”, then yes, but the “modification” would be very deep!

Taiwan tilting Hitachi train testing in 2006

Hitachi, Ltd. is now going underway of designing and manufacturing limited express tilting trains for Taiwan Railway Administration (TRA). Its delivery will start at the end of 2006, and total 6 units (48 cars) of tilting trains will be supplied by the end of 2007.


The tilting train is the "A-train" with 8 car vehicles (4 motor cars and 4 trailer cars). Its car body shell is the distortionless aluminum double-skin structure utilizing Hitachi's Friction Stir Welding (FSW) technology. Moreover, the state of the art VVVF inverter units will be provided for the propulsion system.
The tilting system is the controlled-type tilt (maximum 5 degrees tilting angle), which enables to pass the sharp curves quickly and comfortably.


Owing to Hitachi's rich and advanced technologies on tilting trains, travel time between Taipei - Hualien is expected to be shortened after this train is in service.
Hitachi is boosting up railway system business in Taiwan by this tilting train project.

 

[hexagon789]

Could it be done? Probably.

I'd say it could be done, but to a price

Is it worth the extra cost (both in terms of the upfront extra build cost of the units and the ongoing costs for the extra maintenance and fuel/electricity to move all the extra weight? Probably not, given the choice Avanti have made.

On this point I agree, it's not.

If the WCML ran at 140mph then tilt would've been worthwhile, as one, 390s would've been used to their full potential, just like a tilting 80x would've done.

Partially, 140 was as I understand, only ever going to be on the southern section of the WCML so less curvaceous and you wouldn't do 140 on the curviest bits anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd say it could be done, but to a price

Both financial and in passenger comfort. 80x don't have a tilt profile so are a bit wider than they would be able to be if they did tilt.

With HS2 coming and so motivation to work towards no-tilt 125 north of Crewe at least, tilt just doesn't make sense any more.

 

[hexagon789]

Both financial and in passenger comfort. 80x don't have a tilt profile so are a bit wider than they would be able to be if they did tilt.

Indeed, the bodyshell would need 'trimming' which would likely cost more and like you say - reduce passenger comfort through reduced space internally.

With HS2 coming and so motivation to work towards no-tilt 125 north of Crewe at least, tilt just doesn't make sense any more.

Quite, what might be better is a small programme of improvement works to straighten/re-align some sections or take out the worst PSRs that sort of thing - so there was more running at the higher limits or less need to reduce speed heavily and build it back up again etc

 

[Wyrleybart]

just saying, if it could be done, surely Hitachi could mode the 805/807 design to be able to tilt so they wouldn't need to slow to 110 for most of the trip

How much is "most of the trip" ?
I guessing there are less than a dozen locations between Euston and Birmingham that actually require a non tilt 125mph train to actually slow to 100mph or less IF non TASS trains were allowed to start with. .

 

[800001]

Some shells have been delivered to Newton Aycliffe, but not sure how progressed those are now, nor if the rest of the fleet will be using imported shells or N.A. built ones

Avanti shells that were Delivered to Aycliffe are sat with no work started on them. Only EMR and First East Coast units are currently under assembly.

 

[Domh245]

Avanti shells that were Delivered to Aycliffe are sat with no work started on them. Only EMR and First East Coast units are currently under assembly.

That's surprising! The Avanti units were all due to be in service by 2022, with the EMR units entering service in 2023 - dates will have obviously slipped around a bit, but I still would have expected to see Avanti units ahead of the EMR ones. Thinking out loud, I wonder if the EMR units at the moment are (a couple?) of pre-series units with the main production to occur simultaneously/after the avanti units?

 

[hexagon789]

That's surprising! The Avanti units were all due to be in service by 2022, with the EMR units entering service in 2023 - dates will have obviously slipped around a bit, but I still would have expected to see Avanti units ahead of the EMR ones. Thinking out loud, I wonder if the EMR units at the moment are (a couple?) of pre-series units with the main production to occur simultaneously/after the avanti units?

Iirc only about 40% of the Avanti unit bodyshells are to be manufactured in the UK, allowing for that they might not be as far behind as it seems possibly?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Some shells have been delivered to Newton Aycliffe, but not sure how progressed those are now, nor if the rest of the fleet will be using imported shells or N.A. built ones

I did see something to the effect that 70 shells of the Avanti order would be welded at Newton Aycliffe.
That leaves 65 to be welded elsewhere (Kasado or Pistoia?).
Those numbers might mean the 807 fleet will be locally built, or there might be another mix.

 

[Domh245]

Iirc only about 40% of the Avanti unit bodyshells are to be manufactured in the UK, allowing for that they might not be as far behind as it seems possibly?

I'm more surprised that EMR units are progressing ahead of the Avanti units than the slippage compared to the original plan, though given a couple of weeks ago we saw that the first EMR shell had been welded together (bar cab section) it may yet be the case that it's still further behind those delivered shells

 

[hexagon789]

I'm more surprised that EMR units are progressing ahead of the Avanti units than the slippage compared to the original plan, though given a couple of weeks ago we saw that the first EMR shell had been welded together (bar cab section) it may yet be the case that it's still further behind those delivered shells

Either that or things have swapped? Though is that possible given how these things are usually fixed in terms of order.

 

[greatvoyager]

I'm more surprised that EMR units are progressing ahead of the Avanti units than the slippage compared to the original plan, though given a couple of weeks ago we saw that the first EMR shell had been welded together (bar cab section) it may yet be the case that it's still further behind those delivered shells

Would EMR units need more build time as unlike the 805/807, they aren’t using the same body shell as the original class 800?

 

[Domh245]

Would EMR units need more build time as unlike the 805/807, they aren’t using the same body shell as the original class 800?

I shouldn't imagine that the 'build time' (as in hours at each assembly stage) would be significantly different to a normal 800, but the first few through will no doubt be slower as they check and adapt processes (and validate the design!)

 

[greatvoyager]

I shouldn't imagine that the 'build time' (as in hours at each assembly stage) would be significantly different to a normal 800, but the first few through will no doubt be slower as they check and adapt processes (and validate the design!)

That makes sense.

 

[Dazzer390]

Whilst I'm looking forward to the new trains, I'm going to miss the voyagers. Rode on a few a few years ago but at least they're keeping the Class 390.
Dazzer390

 

[greatvoyager]

Whilst I'm looking forward to the new trains, I'm going to miss the voyagers. Rode on a few a few years ago but at least they're keeping the Class 390.
Dazzer390

I will too, but it will be nice not having so much diesel under wires.

Also, welcome to the forum

 

[Dazzer390]

Thanks. Yeah it would be nice not to have a lot of Diesel under the wires, but again, I'm used to riding the Class 390s.
Dazzer390

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks. Yeah it would be nice not to have a lot of Diesel under the wires, but again, I'm used to riding the Class 390s.
Dazzer390

They're not vastly different in ambiance to 390s but do benefit from slightly bigger windows. I'd take one over a Voyager, at least legroom is generally good.

 

[childwallblues]

Which depot will the 805 and 807 be based at?