Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[C96]

They will be stock pictures.
As the ones that they refer to as testing, are in a separate building to those in photographs.

I believe it was a joke as the authors prior picture was first. Showing a woman in front of a steam engine.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

It would cost a lot more than rail replacement buses down the M74. Surely that would be the most effective use of tax payers money?

Totally agree and I do hope that GBR have a guiding principle on new concessions that diversionary routes must be used where they are available with operators that have the appropriate stock. GBR also need to have as one of their goals is reducing the amount of engineering access that is being taken to keep the railway running safely other European countries manage this a lot more effectively but we just resort to bus substitution without a thought and having done it for sol long its embedded in everyone psyche that there are no alternatives.

 

[Some guy]

There will still be other 80x stock that can divert via the G&SW...

Not happening. A lot of new polmadie drivers aren’t being trained on the line and the ones who have will slowly be losing it off the route card. Meaning it’s just buses north of Carlisle

 

[Watershed]

Not happening. A lot of new polmadie drivers aren’t being trained on the line and the ones who have will slowly be losing it off the route card. Meaning it’s just buses north of Carlisle

I think you've completely misunderstood what I meant!

 

[absolutelymilk]

Presume there's been no word on dynamic testing (which was previous expected in September)? Hopefully not too much longer now

 

[800001]

Presume there's been no word on dynamic testing (which was previous expected in September)? Hopefully not too much longer now

805001 is due to move to Old Dalby within the next 3 weeks

 

[Some guy]

805001 is due to move to Old Dalby within the next 3 weeks

At this rate they’re not even going to be in service until at least December 2023. So looks like the voyagers will be staying a little longer

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why would the 805/807s need any more testing than the previous 80x fleets?
What's different in a dynamic sense (ignoring internal layout)?

 

[Chris172]

Why would the 805/807s need any more testing than the previous 80x fleets?
What's different in a dynamic sense (ignoring internal layout)?

These 805s have new MTU engines that differ from the 800/802s

 

[Bletchleyite]

These 805s have new MTU engines that differ from the 800/802s

Why is that? An upgraded one, or a choice for a different specification?

 

[Chris172]

Why is that? An upgraded one, or a choice for a different specification?

I think I read somewhere that the new engines are more eco friendly than what is installed on the 800/802s so I am thinking that's why they have to tested more, I could be wrong.

 

[Fidelis]

Probably being fitted with the enhanced cooler systems being retrofitted to 800 to overcome hot weather problems

 

[fgwrich]

Why is that? An upgraded one, or a choice for a different specification?

I think I read somewhere that the new engines are more eco friendly than what is installed on the 800/802s so I am thinking that's why they have to tested more, I could be wrong.

A new, Euro 6 engine which therefore has to go through all the associated testing from the start again. Noise testing was also due to be undertaken at Old Dalby too. While the IET design may be relatively new, things like engines have certainly moved on on the last 5 years.

 

[hexagon789]

Why is that? An upgraded one, or a choice for a different specification?

The same 735kW (986bhp) EMR's 810s will have, but restricted to 560kW (750bhp) in Avanti service.

 

[Railperf]

The same 735kW (986bhp) EMR's 810s will have, but restricted to 560kW (750bhp) in Avanti service.

Makes sense as no more than 90mph required on the North Wales run from Crewe using diesel mode - but the lower rating could be a handicap if there are any issues in electric mode and it has to continue on diesel along the WCML. It will be interesting to see if timings in Wales are extended slightly to compensate for the slower acceleration than 221's.

 

[anamyd]

Are the new engines also even quieter as well as cleaner? I think MTU have got their engines really quiet now.

 

[hexagon789]

Makes sense as no more than 90mph required on the North Wales run from Crewe using diesel mode - but the lower rating could be a handicap if there are any issues in electric mode and it has to continue on diesel along the WCML. It will be interesting to see if timings in Wales are extended slightly to compensate for the slower acceleration than 221's.

As I understand these aren't like the GWR/LNER units and under DfT specifications, is it possible a boost mode giving a (temporary) engine uprate might be permitted?

Bit like how the 390s are restricted to 85% power at over 40-ish mph in normal 'eco-mode' but can be uprated to full power if running late.

Obviously normal timings would use the 750hp ratings.

 

[Railperf]

As I understand these aren't like the GWR/LNER units and under DfT specifications, is it possible a boost mode giving a (temporary) engine uprate might be permitted?

Bit like how the 390s are restricted to 85% power at over 40-ish mph in normal 'eco-mode' but can be uprated to full power if running late.

Obviously normal timings would use the 750hp ratings.

390's power setting depends on individual drivers preferences. I have met drivers who claim they always use 'boost' mode - railhead conditions permitting. Off the mark, a GWR class 800/802 set can start slightly quicker than a 221, but for a very short distance before a 221 romps away (on all engines of course.

 

[hexagon789]

390's power setting depends on individual drivers preferences. I have met drivers who claim they always use 'boost' mode

I had always thought it was essentially a prescribed rule, but I it isn't then I can see that some drivers would run with it enabled all the time.

Off the mark, a GWR class 800/802 set can start slightly quicker than a 221, but for a very short distance before a 221 romps away (on all engines of course.

Which might mean a bit of fudging needed with the timetable out to Chester, Bangor and Holyhead as with Inverness/Aberdeen when those went from HSTs to 800s.

 

[craigybagel]

Which might mean a bit of fudging needed with the timetable out to Chester, Bangor and Holyhead as with Inverness/Aberdeen when those went from HSTs to 800s.

The North Wales Coast is likely to see a recast soon anyway.

 

[hexagon789]

The North Wales Coast is likely to see a recast soon anyway.

Oh so not just the TfW services but the Avanti ones as well?

 

[craigybagel]

Oh so not just the TfW services but the Avanti ones as well?

Well my point was more that with TfW having a recast anyway around about the same time if Avanti do need to make adjustments it shouldn't be too hard to accommodate.

 

[hexagon789]

Well my point was more that with TfW having a recast anyway around about the same time if Avanti do need to make adjustments it shouldn't be too hard to accommodate.

Ah right, understood

 

[800001]

Why would the 805/807s need any more testing than the previous 80x fleets?
What's different in a dynamic sense (ignoring internal layout)?

This will mainly be focused on noise tests which are needed as the 805s have a new engine compared to the previous 80x fleet, producing less emission, It should be joined by a second set in November, to test 10 car run, before one will head to Oxley from where it will undertake mainline testing on the West Coast Main Line.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Why would the 805/807s need any more testing than the previous 80x fleets?
What's different in a dynamic sense (ignoring internal layout)?

They shouldn't do and people wonder why the industry now costs so much to run. OK i see engines have been changed but testing should be limited to recertifying them but we seem to be in a situation where every operator starts from scratch. I bet EMR ones will still have their engines tested the same despite AWCs having the same engine.

 

[hexagon789]

They shouldn't do and people wonder why the industry now costs so much to run. OK i see engines have been changed but testing should be limited to recertifying them but we seem to be in a situation where every operator starts from scratch. I bet EMR ones will still have their engines tested the same despite AWCs having the same engine.

EMR's will be running for both longer periods and at higher sustained power outputs.

 

[800001]

They shouldn't do and people wonder why the industry now costs so much to run. OK i see engines have been changed but testing should be limited to recertifying them but we seem to be in a situation where every operator starts from scratch. I bet EMR ones will still have their engines tested the same despite AWCs having the same engine.

EMR is a completely different train to all others 80x fleet.

Shorter carriages, different engines, so this will be classed as a completely new train and will need full type testing.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

EMR's will be running for both longer periods and at higher sustained power outputs.

Yes but basic testing to certify the engines for traction use will be same duration running can then be class specific. Anyhow it aint going to happen which is why we won't see an 810 in use anytime soon either.

 

[Wyrleybart]

EMR is a completely different train to all others 80x fleet.

Shorter carriages, different engines, so this will be classed as a completely new train and will need full type testing.

I am sure I read the initial class 810 announcements that a five car unit would have four powered (diesel engined) cars. This is different to the existing class 800s and 802s which only have thee engines per 5 car unit. I believe that the floor is slightly higher in the cars fitted with diesels underneath, and I guess the same applies with the 810s maybe ? i

 

[DanNCL]

I am sure I read the initial class 810 announcements that a five car unit would have four powered (diesel engined) cars. This is different to the existing class 800s and 802s which only have thee engines per 5 car unit. I believe that the floor is slightly higher in the cars fitted with diesels underneath, and I guess the same applies with the 810s maybe ? i

The existing 80xs including the 801s and 803s have a raised floor in all of the intermediate carriages. The 810s will presumably have the raised floor throughout as 4 engines on a 5 car unit will require at least one of the driving cars to have an engine.