Progress on Avanti West Coast's 805/807s Hitachi AT300 sets

[Welshguy1048]

Apologies, I have fat fingers.
Post #3503

@800001

No worries!

I have that problem too!

Thank you

Dave

 

[Tilting007]

Not comlared to Pendolinos they aren’t!!

MU speeds now mooted for rollout between September and December.
Even with those the Pendo will have a massive advantage.

 

[Tractor2018]

Not comlared to Pendolinos they aren’t!!

And Voyagers.

 

[Bald Rick]

MU speeds now mooted for rollout between September and December.

Yes I’d heard that rumour but nothing confirmed.

 

[AJDesiro]

Yes, too loud. And the female voice is horrendous. I feel as though they’d have been better off copying over Emma Lintern’s existing recordings.

I've been on loads recently and they seem to have been toned down, definitely far less echoey than they were at the start. Tanya Rich is making her way onto the Pendolino's now though, AFAIK she does the "talking toilet" thing now.

 

[Chiltern006]

Can confirm - noticed her voice in there on Friday. I hoped that 'Talking toilets' was just a Virgin thing, but alas no

 

[southern442]

They don't talk as much as they used to - it's just a more simple 'don't fall over' type message now!

 

[Class15]

she does the "talking toilet" thing now.

The what now?

 

[AJDesiro]

The what now?

The toilets during Virgin Trains days were somewhat infamous for talking to you through the speaker on the locking panel. For a while under Avanti, it was just a "toilet door locked" / "toilet door is not locked" message, but they seem to be doing a longer message now, about not falling over and things like that when the train starts/stops moving. Tanya Rich (the lady who does the announcements on the Evero fleet) is now doing these messages on the 390s.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

The toilets during Virgin Trains days were somewhat infamous for talking to you through the speaker on the locking panel. For a while under Avanti, it was just a "toilet door locked" / "toilet door is not locked" message, but they seem to be doing a longer message now, about not falling over and things like that when the train starts/stops moving. Tanya Rich (the lady who does the announcements on the Evero fleet) is now doing these messages on the 390s.

They are less irritating than they were under VT, with the whole “Please don’t flush jumpers, hopes, dreams down the toilet” dross.

 

[Jamesrob637]

They are less irritating than they were under VT, with the whole “Please don’t flush jumpers, hopes, dreams down the toilet” dross.

It's about the only thing that is less irritating than under VT!

 

[Meerkat]

They are less irritating than they were under VT, with the whole “Please don’t flush jumpers, hopes, dreams down the toilet” dross.

What was wrong with that, a bit of jollity in life? You don have to read it!

 

[AJDesiro]

What was wrong with that, a bit of jollity in life? You don have to read it!

I didn’t mind it either - I quite liked it! But it talks to you through a speaker, apologies for being pedantic.

 

[Sorcerer]

Based on looking at some Realtime Trains timetables it seems like the 807s have taken over half the Liverpool services at the odd hours (ie. the 1143) with the 390s working in the even hours (ie. the 1243). There are exceptions, but it seems like a bit of an overall capacity decrease even accounting for some extra services in the morning. Is this actually going to be a long-term stock allocation for an hourly service or is this merely provisions for introducing a second in a future timetable change?

 

[hexagon789]

Based on looking at some Realtime Trains timetables it seems like the 807s have taken over half the Liverpool services at the odd hours (ie. the 1143) with the 390s working in the even hours (ie. the 1243). There are exceptions, but it seems like a bit of an overall capacity decrease even accounting for some extra services in the morning. Is this actually going to be a long-term stock allocation for an hourly service or is this merely provisions for introducing a second in a future timetable change?

To go back to previous explanations:

The XX:43 departure was always intended to be fully 80x worked. It already uses 80x timings, albeit worked out for the new MU speed profile which isn't yet in force.

The XX:02 departures, once fully introduced, is the second hourly service and to be 390 worked.

 

[AJDesiro]

Based on looking at some Realtime Trains timetables it seems like the 807s have taken over half the Liverpool services at the odd hours (ie. the 1143) with the 390s working in the even hours (ie. the 1243). There are exceptions, but it seems like a bit of an overall capacity decrease even accounting for some extra services in the morning. Is this actually going to be a long-term stock allocation for an hourly service or is this merely provisions for introducing a second in a future timetable change?

More capacity than a 390/0 for the vast majority of passengers (standard class).

 

[Sorcerer]

To go back to previous explanations:

The XX:43 departure was always intended to be fully 80x worked. It already uses 80x timings, albeit worked out for the new MU speed profile which isn't yet in force.

The XX:02 departures, once fully introduced, is the second hourly service and to be 390 worked.

As I understood it though the second service was off for some time due to power supply upgrades. At present it only runs in the early morning, so to me it seemed almost impractical to have a complete fleet replacement since an eleven coach Pendolino is better than a seven coach Evero. I must admit that I've not kept up with latest developments too well.

More capacity than a 390/0 for the vast majority of passengers (standard class).

Oh that's right, I forgot about that. If the first class demand for Liverpool is less than somewhere such as Scotland or Manchester then an 807 will be more advantageous than a nine-coach 390. However we will still definitely need some eleven coach trains every now and then, especially if the second service doesn't actually come to full fruition in the near future.

 

[hexagon789]

As I understood it though the second service was off for some time due to power supply upgrades. At present it only runs in the early morning, so to me it seemed almost impractical to have a complete fleet replacement since an eleven coach Pendolino is better than a seven coach Evero. I must admit that I've not kept up with latest developments too well.

Technically it's the first service - I.e. if you run some 80x as 805s on diesel from Weaver each hour temporarily, then you could introduce a near full second train per hour which would be the Pendolino workings.

I think that's what was posted upthread somewhere, but it's 121 pages worth to sort through!

 

[poffle]

There was a proposal to use 805s presented to transport for the north. I don't think this a realistic option. Avanti only bought 13 805s and these are needed for Chester/North Wales services.

I think the most they might manage might be a single 805 Crewe - Liverpool shuttle. Not sure that would be very popular.

The Avanti class 221s have now all gone and the reliability of the 805s doesn't seem to be great. ( Particularly on diesel.)

I suspect however that Avanti are keen to work the 807s as much as possible as they're probably under warranty so Hitachi will be paying for repairs. They'll want to get all the teething problems resolved.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There was a proposal to use 805s presented to transport for the north. I don't think this a realistic option. Avanti only bought 13 805s and these are needed for Chester/North

There must be 805s spare as Avanti canned the Shrewsbury service that was part of the network when the order was placed.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

What was wrong with that, a bit of jollity in life? You don have to read it!

It was played through a speaker.

 

[AJDesiro]

There must be 805s spare as Avanti canned the Shrewsbury service that was part of the network when the order was placed.

In the end state there is a plan for one of the Euston-Birmingham diagrams to be a double 805 - which would have gone to Shrewsbury. Even if these were moved to Liverpool services, you wouldn't be able to have a consistent 2tph service with two extra 805s.

 

[Meerkat]

It was played through a speaker.

Ah apologies. I must have missed that and assumed it was the same as on SWR

 

[Rheoman]

Not compared to Pendolinos they aren’t!!

Acceleration wise they leave a Pendo standing. A Pendolino from a standing start will be doing 55mph after a minute: An 807 is up to 52mph in 30 seconds and doing 80 mph 30 seconds later. 110 mph is reached in just under 2 minutes.

 

[Railperf]

Acceleration wise they leave a Pendo standing. A Pendolino from a standing start will be doing 55mph after a minute: An 807 is up to 52mph in 30 seconds and doing 80 mph 30 seconds later. 110 mph is reached in just under 2 minutes.

A few seconds saved by faster acceleration - even 30 seconds faster than a 390, cannot compare with the faster journey times achieved by a 390 running at EPS speeds.
It is only on the stopping Birrmingham services where an 807 is marginally slower than a 390, but then again a 390 does not need to be driven hard to maintain the scheduled timings, whereas an 807 most definitely needs to be.

 

[Nottingham59]

A few seconds saved by faster acceleration - even 30 seconds faster than a 390, cannot compare with the faster journey times achieved by a 390 running at EPS speeds.
It is only on the stopping Birrmingham services where an 807 is marginally slower than a 390, but then again a 390 does not need to be driven hard to maintain the scheduled timings, whereas an 807 most definitely needs to be.

Does it really matter? A few seconds here; a few seconds there are irrelevant compared to all the cancellations; Sunday strikes; inadequate electrication infrastructure; and eye-watering walk-up fares on the routes that these trains are supposed to serve.

 

[Railperf]

Does it really matter? A few seconds here; a few seconds there are irrelevant compared to all the cancellations; Sunday strikes; inadequate electrication infrastructure; and eye-watering walk-up fares on the routes that these trains are supposed to serve.

It all matters in some way or another. The service offering gets slower, more unreliable and more expensive. The last two times i travelled to North Wales, at least one train was cancelled, and the other seriously delayed!

 

[AJDesiro]

A few seconds saved by faster acceleration - even 30 seconds faster than a 390, cannot compare with the faster journey times achieved by a 390 running at EPS speeds.
It is only on the stopping Birrmingham services where an 807 is marginally slower than a 390, but then again a 390 does not need to be driven hard to maintain the scheduled timings, whereas an 807 most definitely needs to be.

They are the same duration whether pathed as a 390 or 80x, leaving Euston and X:16, and arriving at New St at X+1:48.

These services are planned for 807s, it'd be like saying we should put 2009 stock (ignoring tunnel clearance issues) on the Bakerloo since they'll keep to time better. 80x running to 80x timingss will be able to make up time just as well as a 390 in a 390 path would be able to.

 

[Bald Rick]

Does it really matter? A few seconds here; a few seconds there are irrelevant

Yes it matters, when every train on the WCML fast lines south of Rugby is on minimum headway somewhere. Last week I was on a train (an 807 as it happens) that was running late due to other issues, but it lost further time. Due to it’s booked stop at Watford, it created a chain of delays behind it such that fully 30 minutes later a train on the up fast WCML at Leighton Buzzard received restricitve aspects as a result. It’s an extraordinarily busy railway, and evert few seconds does matter.

They are the same duration whether pathed as a 390 or 80x, leaving Euston and X:16, and arriving at New St at X+1:48.

These services are planned for 807s, it'd be like saying we should put 2009 stock (ignoring tunnel clearance issues) on the Bakerloo since they'll keep to time better. 80x running to 80x timingss will be able to make up time just as well as a 390 in a 390 path would be able to.

Those paths are timed for 80x. If a 390 runs in them, the 390s run early and/ or make up time. The current issue is that the 80x can’t achieve the 80x times, and therefore routinely lose time in 80x timed paths. This is because Avanti haven’t commissioned the new linespeed profile yet.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’d personally say the 390 is just a much superior train, full stop