Proposals to reopen Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton

[Charlie Smythe]

I feel like we’re definitely underestimating Meldon Viaduct here.

Replacing it will be a colossal job and will require pilling down deep below the service in the bottom of the valley. It will be no easy task.

 

[21C101]

If you wanted to link in Launceston, I imagine it would be easy to link to the old Great Western branch trackbed, given it ran alongside for a long way. Would be a bit of a branch though.

Whichever way you reopened to Launceston it would mean running round two sides of a square on slow speed formations, while the A30 dual carriageway goes straight through the middle with it taking only about 20 minutes to drive from Launceston to the proposed Okehampton East Parkway just off it.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

If it was rebuilt as a double track 100mph main line like Bicester to Bletchley is going to be I would agree with you.

And the white elephant rebuilding at Bletchley is worse than Meldon, which wont have a high level station on top of it and dosen't have the West Coast Main Line running underneath it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2021 ==


Why not do what was done at Greenwich with one through road reinstated and the other having a platform added to it?

That is another option and probably a better one. So Central would then become 3 through platforms and 2 bay platforms.

 

[21C101]

That is another option and probably a better one. So Central would then become 3 through platforms and 2 bay platforms.

Alas the up bay platform is gone, but to be fair the down bay is little if ever used these days now that we have "Exelink" running half hour,y from Exmouth to Paignton. It points the wrong way!

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Alas the up bay platform is gone, but to be fair the down bay is little if ever used these days now that we have "Exelink" running half hour,y from Exmouth to Paignton. It points the wrong way!

It’s a good idea to have a middle platform. And yes, I forgot that it was only the down bay that remained.

 

[Irascible]

If you wanted to link in Launceston, I imagine it would be easy to link to the old Great Western branch trackbed, given it ran alongside for a long way. Would be a bit of a branch though.

If you wanted Launceston back on the rails just go straight from Tavistock to Launceston & forget the other bit, which would give a rail route to a hopefully reviving Plymouth with a railhead on the A30 ( and indirectly the A39 ) without backtracking, and a quickish drive to a rail route to Exeter. I somehow think the BCA on that is not great ( I suspect that's a fairly big understatement! ) but there are worse ideas.

That “maze” was a solid track plan that lower flexibility. The current plan is so restrictive it’s unreal. It has been good enough for decades, but the time has come for some major track alterations.
As for Centra, adding a middle road to use as a turn back/stabling siding wouldn’t be a bad idea.

What were the speed restrictions on the old south throat? I can remember the odd train passing through on the old centre road ( at St Davids ) but can't really remember speeds.

There's a fair bit of space immediately east of Central too that seems unlikely to be ever built on.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

What were the speed restrictions on the old south throat? I can remember the odd train passing through on the old centre road ( at St Davids ) but can't really remember speeds.

There's a fair bit of space immediately east of Central too that seems unlikely to be ever built on

I am unaware of the restrictions in terms of climbing the bank, however I know the Cornish Riviera used to run through on the middle road at some serious pace. Maybe 40mph or so.

The space east of Central would be ideal. There is space next the up and the down lines of trains of a few hundred metres in length.

 

[yorksrob]

Whichever way you reopened to Launceston it would mean running round two sides of a square on slow speed formations, while the A30 dual carriageway goes straight through the middle with it taking only about 20 minutes to drive from Launceston to the proposed Okehampton East Parkway just off it.

If you wanted Launceston back on the rails just go straight from Tavistock to Launceston & forget the other bit, which would give a rail route to a hopefully reviving Plymouth with a railhead on the A30 ( and indirectly the A39 ) without backtracking, and a quickish drive to a rail route to Exeter. I somehow think the BCA on that is not great ( I suspect that's a fairly big understatement! ) but there are worse ideas.

Well, I'd be quite happy with the line through from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton myself !

 

[21C101]

Well, I'd be quite happy with the line through from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton myself !

For now I am just keeping fingers crossed for an Okehampton formal announcement soon.

 

[Irascible]

Well, I'd be quite happy with the line through from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton myself !

Emotively, myself also. I'd love to take the train to Bude! When trying to think of what's best for Devon & Cornwall, I have serious reservations ( as expressed already ) when there's bigger problems with the already existing line that the LSWR route wouldn't fix.

Here's a thought experiment: Plymouth is a fantastic natural harbour, and it's well placed at the west end of the extremely busy channel shipping lanes. Plymouth wants to make good use of all that & build a container port ( I'm not exactly sure where they'd put it to be honest - it's a pity Sutton docks is so developed. Maybe the bottom end of the naval base or somewhere around Cattedown ) but how are they going to get the traffic to and from the rest of the country? the roads are not up to that level of traffic, the existing GW route is very awkward ( possibly terminally awkward ), do you spend on the LSWR route which doesn't really improve anything else for Plymouth other than an easier commute from Tavistock but does give you a freight route ( a fairly expensive one ) & occasionally an emergency passenger route, push to electrify the GW route ( and that would be to a long way outside Devon ) but otherwise leave it alone - which at least would speed up Plymouth passenger services a *bit* but it'd likely never get touched again, or do you bite the bullet and spend more on electrification and realignment of GW which would provide larger benefits but cost a considerable amount more? Or do you decide it's not worth the sizeable investment at all and leave Plymouth to do something else?

This is the problem I have with the LSWR line, it seems to solve the Dawlish issue ( actually no, it solves the Dawlish *rail* issue but the sea defenses need to protect the town anyway ) but to not provide much else for the relatively small investment. The investment in electrification & realignment ( astronomical and even more astronomical ) do seem to make a greater difference.

 

[yorksrob]

Emotively, myself also. I'd love to take the train to Bude! When trying to think of what's best for Devon & Cornwall, I have serious reservations ( as expressed already ) when there's bigger problems with the already existing line that the LSWR route wouldn't fix.

Here's a thought experiment: Plymouth is a fantastic natural harbour, and it's well placed at the west end of the extremely busy channel shipping lanes. Plymouth wants to make good use of all that & build a container port ( I'm not exactly sure where they'd put it to be honest - it's a pity Sutton docks is so developed. Maybe the bottom end of the naval base or somewhere around Cattedown ) but how are they going to get the traffic to and from the rest of the country? the roads are not up to that level of traffic, the existing GW route is very awkward ( possibly terminally awkward ), do you spend on the LSWR route which doesn't really improve anything else for Plymouth other than an easier commute from Tavistock but does give you a freight route ( a fairly expensive one ) & occasionally an emergency passenger route, push to electrify the GW route ( and that would be to a long way outside Devon ) but otherwise leave it alone - which at least would speed up Plymouth passenger services a *bit* but it'd likely never get touched again, or do you bite the bullet and spend more on electrification and realignment of GW which would provide larger benefits but cost a considerable amount more? Or do you decide it's not worth the sizeable investment at all and leave Plymouth to do something else?

This is the problem I have with the LSWR line, it seems to solve the Dawlish issue ( actually no, it solves the Dawlish *rail* issue but the sea defenses need to protect the town anyway ) but to not provide much else for the relatively small investment. The investment in electrification & realignment ( astronomical and even more astronomical ) do seem to make a greater difference.

I'd always say that the the existing route is perfectly good for passenger services - an hour is a perfectly acceptable timing. The improvements in the Dawlish area being made by NR should make it more resilient most of the time.

With the Okehampton route you get better services to Tavistock, Okehampton, Crediton etc, an alternative route to the West country for disruption and routine closures and a good route for freight.

The choice is obvious to me.

 

[21C101]

Emotively, myself also. I'd love to take the train to Bude! When trying to think of what's best for Devon & Cornwall, I have serious reservations ( as expressed already ) when there's bigger problems with the already existing line that the LSWR route wouldn't fix.

Here's a thought experiment: Plymouth is a fantastic natural harbour, and it's well placed at the west end of the extremely busy channel shipping lanes. Plymouth wants to make good use of all that & build a container port ( I'm not exactly sure where they'd put it to be honest - it's a pity Sutton docks is so developed. Maybe the bottom end of the naval base or somewhere around Cattedown ) but how are they going to get the traffic to and from the rest of the country? the roads are not up to that level of traffic, the existing GW route is very awkward ( possibly terminally awkward ), do you spend on the LSWR route which doesn't really improve anything else for Plymouth other than an easier commute from Tavistock but does give you a freight route ( a fairly expensive one ) & occasionally an emergency passenger route, push to electrify the GW route ( and that would be to a long way outside Devon ) but otherwise leave it alone - which at least would speed up Plymouth passenger services a *bit* but it'd likely never get touched again, or do you bite the bullet and spend more on electrification and realignment of GW which would provide larger benefits but cost a considerable amount more? Or do you decide it's not worth the sizeable investment at all and leave Plymouth to do something else?

This is the problem I have with the LSWR line, it seems to solve the Dawlish issue ( actually no, it solves the Dawlish *rail* issue but the sea defenses need to protect the town anyway ) but to not provide much else for the relatively small investment. The investment in electrification & realignment ( astronomical and even more astronomical ) do seem to make a greater difference.

Plymouth being a port was, of course, the reason for the line being built in the first place.

A significant freight flow west of Newton Abbot would be something of a game changer in this regard.

Although, if I was going to build a container port I would be more tempted to look at the Falmouth area which is a few hours sailing time nearer the atlantic and just off the A30, with existing rail links nearby.

Either one would need the LSWR route reinstated as Dawlish would not be suitable without backup for a key freight flow, although with Falmouth the preferred option "backup" might be to reopen the North Cornwall line with some new curves to avoid reversals in the Bodmin area.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

The LSWR route is a no brainer, especially for what it costs. It solves the Dawlish issue and helps to reconnect North Devon/Cornwall and could poentially contribute to future reopenings in the future. As for all this Launceston chatter, I can see where those who want it back are coming from. I knew it was bigger than Okehampton, but I didn't know it was that much bigger. There is a significant differance between the two that wasn't obious to me before I researched about the town.

We seem to be on the subject of fantasy reopening so while were at it I am just goint to throw Bideford into the mix. It's a large town and only requires a few miles of track which is almost undisturbed along it's whole route. In fact, some stations along the route still exist. The tunnels and bridge are still in tact and the route literally needs a new tunnle under the roundabout (not an issue due to the road being so much higher than the railway) and then it's straight onto the old alignment.

If James May can do it why can't Network Rail?

 

[yorksrob]

The LSWR route is a no brainer, especially for what it costs. It solves the Dawlish issue and helps to reconnect North Devon/Cornwall and could poentially contribute to future reopenings in the future. As for all this Launceston chatter, I can see where those who want it back are coming from. I knew it was bigger than Okehampton, but I didn't know it was that much bigger. There is a significant differance between the two that wasn't obious to me before I researched about the town.

We seem to be on the subject of fantasy reopening so while were at it I am just goint to throw Bideford into the mix. It's a large town and only requires a few miles of track which is almost undisturbed along it's whole route. In fact, some stations along the route still exist. The tunnels and bridge are still in tact and the route literally needs a new tunnle under the roundabout (not an issue due to the road being so much higher than the railway) and then it's straight onto the old alignment.

If James May can do it why can't Network Rail?

Bideford isn't that far fetched, given that it inspired the Speller act which enabled a few routes to be reopened. Sadly it just missed out itself !

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Plymouth being a port was, of course, the reason for the line being built in the first place.

A significant freight flow west of Newton Abbot would be something of a game changer in this regard.

Although, if I was going to build a container port I would be more tempted to look at the Falmouth area which is a few hours sailing time nearer the atlantic and just off the A30, with existing rail links nearby.

Either one would need the LSWR route reinstated as Dawlish would not be suitable without backup for a key freight flow, although with Falmouth the preferred option "backup" might be to reopen the North Cornwall line with some new curves to avoid reversals in the Bodmin area.

The lack of freight in Devon and Cornwall (not just west of Newton Abbot) is a major issue. It's just engineering trains, the occasional cement train and of course the China Clay trains. There is talk of mining lithium in Cornwall so maybe that could be a future freight flow, especially if it transported in it's natural form within the water from the springs.

The LSWR route would be the one to open as the two ends are already there. The North Cornwall line would be a major undertaking and very expensive. The only issue is the near constant 1 in 75, although freight would mostly use the coastal route anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jan 2021 ==

Bideford isn't that far fetched, given that it inspired the Speller act which enabled a few routes to be reopened. Sadly it just missed out itself !

Shame that as the route would no doubt be popular. There are a few other fantasy ideas but I don't think any of them would ever actually happen.

Sidmouth is another one. Quite a large town but with no rail access.
Tiverton via the old Exe Valley Line through Bickleigh joining the mainline at Stoke Cannon would be another. Many people drive to Exeter from Tiverton for work and an hourly service from Tiverton to Exeter would be well used, especially if the station was near the middle of town (unlike Tiverton Parkway).

 

[yorksrob]

Sidmouth is another one. Quite a large town but with no rail access.
Tiverton via the old Exe Valley Line through Bickleigh joining the mainline at Stoke Cannon would be another. Many people drive to Exeter from Tiverton for work and an hourly service from Tiverton to Exeter would be well used, especially if the station was near the middle of town (unlike Tiverton Parkway).

I'd find Bodmin Road to Padstow quite handy !

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I'd find Bodmin Road to Padstow quite handy !

Another good one. If only the pot was infinite...

 

[Irascible]

The lack of freight in Devon and Cornwall (not just west of Newton Abbot) is a major issue. It's just engineering trains, the occasional cement train and of course the China Clay trains. There is talk of mining lithium in Cornwall so maybe that could be a future freight flow, especially if it transported in it's natural form within the water from the springs.

The LSWR route would be the one to open as the two ends are already there.

Except it isn't, because there's a fair difference between a line for light MUs and one stressed for freight. *Half* of it will be there for Meldon quarry traffic at least. Maybe if you got whoever's sending your one freight flow to pay to rebuild the other half... then compare that to part funding a Dawlish avoider.

Sidmouth is another one. Quite a large town but with no rail access.
Tiverton via the old Exe Valley Line through Bickleigh joining the mainline at Stoke Cannon would be another. Many people drive to Exeter from Tiverton for work and an hourly service from Tiverton to Exeter would be well used, especially if the station was near the middle of town (unlike Tiverton Parkway).

I debate if you'd get much traffic from Sidmouth honestly, unless there was a direct train to Central ( and even then... it's generally regional prejudice but most of us couldn't see the inhabitants of Sidmouth or Budleigh lowering themselves to use public transport :P ).

I grew up in Tiverton as I mentioned somewhere else - 60mph upgrade Exeter-Tiverton & out to the old jct would have been enough to run Bristol-Exeter stoppers that way I think & avoided the bus mayhem post closure & the pretty horrible traffic since. Idea is a 100% no-go now though, there's roads on practically all the infrastructure in the town & no way through it other than pulling the entire ring road and most of a housing estate up & sending road traffic through the town centre again. The B&ER should have sent the main line down the Exe valley ( it's very straight ) but I suspect interference from the local landowners...

The worst part is the Exeter end, the traffic & trying to find parking ( and that was 30 years ago .. the traffic coming in from the east just about all day suggest it's not improved at all ), it's a relatively quick drive other than jams ( and occasional floods ) at Bickleigh. Was still a stupidly short sighted decision, it was a busy operation & not much done to try & rationalise it...

Bideford would be *nominally* relatively easy as the whole route is safeguarded ( and there's a bridge at Barnstaple under the roundabout just in case ) but the area is flat & the road is basically a straight shot to Barnstaple station. I can't remember how many crossings there were, childhood seems to remember a lot ( I almost brained myself tripping over the rails at Instow once... ).

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Except it isn't, because there's a fair difference between a line for light MUs and one stressed for freight. *Half* of it will be there for Meldon quarry traffic at least. Maybe if you got whoever's sending your one freight flow to pay to rebuild the other half... then compare that to part funding a Dawlish avoider.

So I have heard from multiple places that Meldon Quarry is due to reopen to help supply aggregate to other project while Aggregate Industries’ other Quarries focus on the mountain of work HS2 has brought them, although I haven’t seen any official information on this.

I presume that there doesn’t need to be much track at Meldon for this to work? Just a loading track and a run around with a storage siding would do the job, however, it depends on how many trains per day they wish to run. It would be interesting seeing that go up Exeter bank over the Southern Route if the GWR route via Taunton was closed for whatever reason.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2021 ==

I grew up in Tiverton as I mentioned somewhere else - 60mph upgrade Exeter-Tiverton & out to the old jct would have been enough to run Bristol-Exeter stoppers that way I think & avoided the bus mayhem post closure & the pretty horrible traffic since. Idea is a 100% no-go now though, there's roads on practically all the infrastructure in the town & no way through it other than pulling the entire ring road and most of a housing estate up & sending road traffic through the town centre again. The B&ER should have sent the main line down the Exe valley ( it's very straight ) but I suspect interference from the local landowners...

The worst part is the Exeter end, the traffic & trying to find parking ( and that was 30 years ago .. the traffic coming in from the east just about all day suggest it's not improved at all ), it's a relatively quick drive other than jams ( and occasional floods ) at Bickleigh. Was still a stupidly short sighted decision, it was a busy operation & not much done to try & rationalise it...

I am unsure as to which of the Tiverton route would be best. The one from Tiverton Junction is shorter, but would likely give a longer journey time because it’s not as direct, however the one via Bickleigh would be more expensive.

I don’t think either will happen, but Bideford on the other hand is a different story. That is actually very easy and has a lot of support. Barnstable used to have a lot of complicated point work at the Bideford end (3 diamonds I believe). No it’s just buffers of course.

 

[The Ham]

I don't have any ridership figures - how much could we absorb before we'd need more services rather than just faster ones? a chunk of the service is currently short XC Voyagers too, so there's room for improvement via Bristol without adding more paths. Need to point out again that the issue here is that west of Exeter is *slow* - extra capacity via SWR is not going to do anything for that, nor is extra capacity via Okehampton.

Given that pre 80x's the HST's were needed to be upgraded to provide extra seats and that there was much made about the extra 18% of seats to the 80x's it's likely that the loadings to at least Exeter were decent.

Something which I keep reminding people of is that this is likely to be 20 years away. Even if it takes 10 years to get back to 2019 levels of passengers and there's then only 1.25% growth year on year for the next 10 years and that's going to nearly wipe out the 18% extra seats.

However if we see a lot of people moving West to WFH and them then traveling to London (or other South Eastern areas as there's a lot of companies located a bit out of London so they can access London but without needing to pay the high London costs) for work infrequently growth rates could be fairly generous.

In that case it could well be that growth could be enough that the Exeter semi fasts end up well loaded, the 80x's go to 9 coach units (by lengthening 5 coach units to increase the numbers available to add a few extra services a day) and then even 10 coach units all (to increase overall capacity).

Whilst I fully agree that West of Exeter is slow, spending £1.5bn plus on the DAL isn't going to gain a lot (IIRC 15 minutes at best) which would probably see limited extra passengers on a service which would still be hourly (maybe 2tph, but then that requires using the Exeter semi fasts which are slower).

Going via Bristol still requires capacity through Reading, which is limited, and if you're changing off a XC service that's slowing down the journey time and so not really going to gain you much over the SWR route.

Where would the capacity issues in Exeter be? the station itself or somewhere else? if it's the station then how is it going to handle extra SWR services? ( and irrespective of any extra services to Plymouth that needs to be resolved anyway ).

1tph between Exeter and Plymouth via Okehampton could happen without increasing frequencies as the SWR services get moved out of the platform at St. Davids. Adding an extra service beyond that could mean extra works, but it's likely to be limited and could be done within the funding envelope of the cheapest DAL option. Unlike of you needed to do those works to provide extra capacity for new services to run on the DAL.

The WoE line needs improvements by itself. As an ad-hoc user of it IMO most of those right now need to be between Axminster & Exeter ( as planned, to a degree ) but doing some lifting to aid the GWR route to London would be a good idea - that would need a study of customer behaviour ( and future trends in travel ) that's a bit beyond me to decide exactly what to do, but the service is generally liked by it's users as it is. It'd be faster to me to drive the wrong way to Exeter ( let alone the right way to Taunton ) & get a GWR service but I'd rather take the comfort of the WoE, even with the extra hour+. I however am neither a regular or probably a typical customer. People do also want to go north from the SW rather than to London though, so extra ridership does not have to necessarily be absorbed by a different route to the GW routes.

Finding those who would wish to travel from the SWR area to Plymouth is likely to be fairly easy to do, just look at how busy some of the roads heading west are (including those which allows travel from Weymouth to Exeter). Finding who would do it by train is harder.

However having a service running at half hour intervals would make that journey more attractive, as would not needing to change at Exeter with a long official change time.

It is perfectly valid that people wish to head north as well as to London (there's been some busy double Voyagers and XC HST's at times at Exeter which attest to that).

Whilst it's possible for extra capacity to be added to cater for that, again the point that this is potentially 20+ years away comes into play. In that those upgrades would likely to have happened anyway.

Now it might be that there's scope for extra InterCity service between Exeter and Plymouth (maybe a few a day). Without the Okehampton services then that's likely to end up focusing on heading towards Paddington (maybe by going via Bristol so as not to increase paths into Paddington). However if the SWR services are providing some extra capacity then those extra services could focus on heading to Birmingham.

Given a choice of driving, taking the coach, or taking a train to London or points north then the train wins hands-down. Given the choice if I'm going west, then the train is not a clear winner at all and that is from someone who's inclined to take the train over any other mode - it's not a case of not finding a seat, it's a case of it just being slow & not worth the effort. Sadly adding an extra route that is not any faster is not going to change that. I know that goes against what I said about the WoE line just now, but the WoE service east has extra points for comfort ( big selling point for me ) and convenience over GWR ( and of course London has easy local transport ).

The killer time comparison isn't Exeter-Plymouth by road, it's Plymouth-Tiverton Parkway, which is just over an hour in the car ( 10 mins of that is just getting out of Plymouth so if you're on the east side to start with it's even worse ) and an hour and a quarter by train. It only gets worse for the train comparing it west of Plymouth until you're looking at a whole hour longer via train from Penzance.

I can't support a case for a *new* alternate route if it's main point is it's better than bustitution - there's not *that* much disruption at Dawlish and if it's bad enough to affect the railway then it's probably getting a bit dangerous for the inhabitants at Dawlish too, so they need improvements to the seawall regardless if there's a railway on it.

The existing route would be retained anyway, have a via Okehampton route would aid when there's issues, but that's never going to wash when it comes to the business case.

I'd also highlight that the current (fast) services being typically every half an hour also hinders the attractiveness of going by train as that adds to the risk of poor connection times or needing to travel at a time which may not be quite so convenient.

Remove the risk of poor connection times (especially to/from WofE services), remove the need to change to get between Exeter Central/Plymouth and increase the frequency to 3tph or 4tph at a decent journey time (even if via Okehampton was 15 minutes slower) and you'd likely see an uplift in passenger numbers (in fact each of those would likely aid passenger numbers fairly well).

The point about getting a coach (and I agree that disruption is limited, however the building of the DAL would add to that for a time) was due to the fact that often when the route via Okehampton is suggested that those from the existing line say "how does it benefit us, given that we would still need to be bussed" or those who say that "buses will still be fine so we don't need another railway line for times of disruption".

The point I was making was that whilst buses can do the journey quickly they can be slowed down quite a bit by needing to wait for several buses before you can board and that for those who would still need to be bussed there are benefits in not having to bus everyone.

--

Could the Okehampton route be made noticeably quicker than the South Devon route if you messed with the alignment? it may be fast to Okehampton but I seem to remember it's very twisty below Lydford.

Given that it's further I doubt it. The best thing for that is the DAL. As I've said before having the route via Okehampton (and the extra passengers that would likely generate between Exeter and Plymouth) would likely increase the business case for it anyway.

 

[Irascible]

Although, if I was going to build a container port I would be more tempted to look at the Falmouth area which is a few hours sailing time nearer the atlantic and just off the A30, with existing rail links nearby.

Well, it was just a thought experiment to illustrate the choices you'd have to make if Plymouth/west of Dartmoor wanted to make much heavier use of the rail network. Falmouth is also a fantastic natural harbour but boy you'd have fun sending all that container traffic up the Cornish main line! and it's still got to go through Devon too anyway. At least that might get wires to Penzance...

I am unsure as to which of the Tiverton route would be best. The one from Tiverton Junction is shorter, but would likely give a longer journey time because it’s not as direct, however the one via Bickleigh would be more expensive.

I don’t think either will happen, but Bideford on the other hand is a different story. That is actually very easy and has a lot of support. Barnstable used to have a lot of complicated point work at the Bideford end (3 diamonds I believe). No it’s just buffers of course.

The only route available to Tiverton is out to the Junction - I think some of it is infilled farming land now but I don't think it's built on until you get to the old station area ( indeed quite a bit is a footpath ). Almost entirely useless on it's own as a route though ( not least because the route turns north into the old Junction ). The Exe valley line is also mostly clear - and actually pretty clear of crossings from what I can remember - until you get to halfway between Cadleigh & Tiverton, where it disappears under the main road & then some industries, housing estates and then the south ring road. The only corridor left into the town is the other side of the Exe where there's a lane to a country house, and I doubt you'd be popular trying to put a line on that!

The crossings thing might kill any attempts to re-extend to Bideford ( other than that it's probably slower than a bus ). If only the clay traffic had lasted a couple more years...

Given that pre 80x's the HST's were needed to be upgraded to provide extra seats and that there was much made about the extra 18% of seats to the 80x's it's likely that the loadings to at least Exeter were decent.

Before the HSTs got the extra coach they were absolutely rammed all the way; can remember sitting leaning on one of the doors in a crammed vestibule a few times. However - are they currently full from Exeter - which is about the outer limit of where people are prepared to commute from - or from further west?

Going via Bristol still requires capacity through Reading, which is limited, and if you're changing off a XC service that's slowing down the journey time and so not really going to gain you much over the SWR route.

Now there's a fantastic argument for re-upgrading the WoE! ( and St Davids ) provided there's space at Waterloo... however WoE trains can reach Plymouth via the GWR line still if the bottleneck is Reading & east rather than Exeter & west. If the SDR line gets full up then of course there needs to be more capacity somewhere, are there any projections showing it's likely to happen & how long? most of my moaning in the thread so far has been about how it's not a massively attractive transport option in the first place.

How you'd turn the WoE into a first class main line again is a whole other thread of fun.

There is another elephant in the room in the next 20-30 years rather than trains filling up, in that we need to electrify. If one of the selling points of the north route is to send freight from Plymouth & Cornwall ( if there ever is any more than the occasional clay ) that way are we going to wire *both* routes?

 

[21C101]

Except it isn't, because there's a fair difference between a line for light MUs and one stressed for freight. *Half* of it will be there for Meldon quarry traffic at least. Maybe if you got whoever's sending your one freight flow to pay to rebuild the other half... then compare that to part funding a Dawlish avoider.



I debate if you'd get much traffic from Sidmouth honestly, unless there was a direct train to Central ( and even then... it's generally regional prejudice but most of us couldn't see the inhabitants of Sidmouth or Budleigh lowering themselves to use public transport :P ).

I grew up in Tiverton as I mentioned somewhere else - 60mph upgrade Exeter-Tiverton & out to the old jct would have been enough to run Bristol-Exeter stoppers that way I think & avoided the bus mayhem post closure & the pretty horrible traffic since. Idea is a 100% no-go now though, there's roads on practically all the infrastructure in the town & no way through it other than pulling the entire ring road and most of a housing estate up & sending road traffic through the town centre again. The B&ER should have sent the main line down the Exe valley ( it's very straight ) but I suspect interference from the local landowners...

The worst part is the Exeter end, the traffic & trying to find parking ( and that was 30 years ago .. the traffic coming in from the east just about all day suggest it's not improved at all ), it's a relatively quick drive other than jams ( and occasional floods ) at Bickleigh. Was still a stupidly short sighted decision, it was a busy operation & not much done to try & rationalise it...

Bideford would be *nominally* relatively easy as the whole route is safeguarded ( and there's a bridge at Barnstaple under the roundabout just in case ) but the area is flat & the road is basically a straight shot to Barnstaple station. I can't remember how many crossings there were, childhood seems to remember a lot ( I almost brained myself tripping over the rails at Instow once... ).

Tram trains might be the answer at Tiverton. Enabling an Exeter Central to Tiverton Parkway service with "tramway" sections in Tiverton and from Willand to Tiverton Parkway.

It is little known that before the Southern lost control of their lines west of Salisbury they were planning a major diesel depot at Exmouth Junction with "thumpers" for the east Devon branches and full width "Hastings" units for the main line.

Part of this plan was a through "Thumper" service from Exmouth to Tiverton via the Exe Valley.

Similarly with Sidmouth. The existing old station is appallingly located a mile out of town on a hill because the town fathers didn't want the hoi-polloi turning up en masse for day trips, so if it ever reopened it would need to be a tram train on from the station on road into the town.

Going further into fantasy, such a tram train could then turn west and run to join the formation of the other line to give an Exeter-Sidmouth-Budleigh-Exmouth service.

Would be a lot of whinging about all the new houses needed to make that viable now!

 

[The Ham]

Well, it was just a thought experiment to illustrate the choices you'd have to make if Plymouth/west of Dartmoor wanted to make much heavier use of the rail network. Falmouth is also a fantastic natural harbour but boy you'd have fun sending all that container traffic up the Cornish main line! and it's still got to go through Devon too anyway. At least that might get wires to Penzance...



The only route available to Tiverton is out to the Junction - I think some of it is infilled farming land now but I don't think it's built on until you get to the old station area ( indeed quite a bit is a footpath ). Almost entirely useless on it's own as a route though ( not least because the route turns north into the old Junction ). The Exe valley line is also mostly clear - and actually pretty clear of crossings from what I can remember - until you get to halfway between Cadleigh & Tiverton, where it disappears under the main road & then some industries, housing estates and then the south ring road. The only corridor left into the town is the other side of the Exe where there's a lane to a country house, and I doubt you'd be popular trying to put a line on that!

The crossings thing might kill any attempts to re-extend to Bideford ( other than that it's probably slower than a bus ). If only the clay traffic had lasted a couple more years...



Before the HSTs got the extra coach they were absolutely rammed all the way; can remember sitting leaning on one of the doors in a crammed vestibule a few times. However - are they currently full from Exeter - which is about the outer limit of where people are prepared to commute from - or from further west?



Now there's a fantastic argument for re-upgrading the WoE! ( and St Davids ) provided there's space at Waterloo... however WoE trains can reach Plymouth via the GWR line still if the bottleneck is Reading & east rather than Exeter & west. If the SDR line gets full up then of course there needs to be more capacity somewhere, are there any projections showing it's likely to happen & how long? most of my moaning in the thread so far has been about how it's not a massively attractive transport option in the first place.

How you'd turn the WoE into a first class main line again is a whole other thread of fun.

There is another elephant in the room in the next 20-30 years rather than trains filling up, in that we need to electrify. If one of the selling points of the north route is to send freight from Plymouth & Cornwall ( if there ever is any more than the occasional clay ) that way are we going to wire *both* routes?

I suspect that any redoubling would probably include for electrification in the design (so signals, bridge clearance, etc and maybe even some pads where it makes sense, such as fixing points at the top of retaining walls.

As for the actual electrification the WofE line would be bits, so from Basingstoke Westwards (how far that reaches its up for debate) and maybe from Exeter Eastwards. Although if there's at least plans for 2tph to Plymouth I suspect that it could be done not that long after 2050 as it would be near the top of the list of routes which justify wires. Even if there's no extra services, then assuming new bimodals in 2025 by about 2060 would be a good date so that there wasn't a need to get a new bimodal fleet (assuming that they weren't needed elsewhere before then).

 

[21C101]

I suspect that any redoubling would probably include for electrification in the design (so signals, bridge clearance, etc and maybe even some pads where it makes sense, such as fixing points at the top of retaining walls.

As for the actual electrification the WofE line would be bits, so from Basingstoke Westwards (how far that reaches its up for debate) and maybe from Exeter Eastwards. Although if there's at least plans for 2tph to Plymouth I suspect that it could be done not that long after 2050 as it would be near the top of the list of routes which justify wires. Even if there's no extra services, then assuming new bimodals in 2025 by about 2060 would be a good date so that there wasn't a need to get a new bimodal fleet (assuming that they weren't needed elsewhere before then).

To my mind the best thing to do for starters would be to electrify Reading to Basingstoke, Salisbury and Redbridge at 25kV along with Didcot to Nuneaton and Bletchley and send all tbe containers via the Laverstock loop, with through roads at Andover reinstated to "loop" freights to allow passenger trains to pass.

Changing the main line via Winchester to 25kV is dead in the water and you really want to get the freights out of the way of the route through Winchester.

Salisbury to Bath and Newbury to Westbury would logically follow on from this.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Well, it was just a thought experiment to illustrate the choices you'd have to make if Plymouth/west of Dartmoor wanted to make much heavier use of the rail network. Falmouth is also a fantastic natural harbour but boy you'd have fun sending all that container traffic up the Cornish main line! and it's still got to go through Devon too anyway. At least that might get wires to Penzance...



The only route available to Tiverton is out to the Junction - I think some of it is infilled farming land now but I don't think it's built on until you get to the old station area ( indeed quite a bit is a footpath ). Almost entirely useless on it's own as a route though ( not least because the route turns north into the old Junction ). The Exe valley line is also mostly clear - and actually pretty clear of crossings from what I can remember - until you get to halfway between Cadleigh & Tiverton, where it disappears under the main road & then some industries, housing estates and then the south ring road. The only corridor left into the town is the other side of the Exe where there's a lane to a country house, and I doubt you'd be popular trying to put a line on that!

The crossings thing might kill any attempts to re-extend to Bideford ( other than that it's probably slower than a bus ). If only the clay traffic had lasted a couple more years...



Before the HSTs got the extra coach they were absolutely rammed all the way; can remember sitting leaning on one of the doors in a crammed vestibule a few times. However - are they currently full from Exeter - which is about the outer limit of where people are prepared to commute from - or from further west?



Now there's a fantastic argument for re-upgrading the WoE! ( and St Davids ) provided there's space at Waterloo... however WoE trains can reach Plymouth via the GWR line still if the bottleneck is Reading & east rather than Exeter & west. If the SDR line gets full up then of course there needs to be more capacity somewhere, are there any projections showing it's likely to happen & how long? most of my moaning in the thread so far has been about how it's not a massively attractive transport option in the first place.

How you'd turn the WoE into a first class main line again is a whole other thread of fun.

There is another elephant in the room in the next 20-30 years rather than trains filling up, in that we need to electrify. If one of the selling points of the north route is to send freight from Plymouth & Cornwall ( if there ever is any more than the occasional clay ) that way are we going to wire *both* routes?

Definitely should not be electrifying the ex-LSWR route, and should only consider electrifying the GWR route up over the South Devon Banks but even then it’s not worth it to save a few minutes.

The ex-LSWR route should definitely not be electrified. The route sort of has a business case as is, but once you have to lift every bridge and rebore tunnels then the case is dropped. It won’t be worth it.

 

[Bald Rick]

The LSWR route is a no brainer,

Usual comments apply

It solves the Dawlish issue

No it doesn’t.

helps to reconnect North Devon/Cornwall

There are other ways to do that, much more cheaply.

If James May can do it why can't Network Rail?

Where did he build a brand new national rail spec railway?

 

[Charlie Smythe]

Usual comments apply

Which are?

No it doesn’t.

It does, it provides a alternative route to Dawlish and prevents to total loss of rail travel in the region should Dawlish ever go down again.

There are other ways to do that, much more cheaply.

Like what? The ex-LSWR route is cheap compared to their options.

Where did he build a brand new national rail spec railway?

It was a joke. You have too have watched the TV show to understand.

 

[Tobbes]

Definitely should not be electrifying the ex-LSWR route, and should only consider electrifying the GWR route up over the South Devon Banks but even then it’s not worth it to save a few minutes.

The ex-LSWR route should definitely not be electrified. The route sort of has a business case as is, but once you have to lift every bridge and rebore tunnels then the case is dropped. It won’t be worth it.

Electrification of almost all of the national network is going to be required to meet the UK's CO2 goals by 2050. And electrifying railways is comparatively low-hanging fruit compared with some of the decarbonisation that we're contemplating - air travel, most obviously - as well as providing performance enhancements and reduced life-cycle costs over diesel units. So yes, there is every reason to expect the xLSWR WoE to be electrified at 25 kV AC from the existing DC network using bi-mode electrics. In the process, double tracking the WoE should be done as well.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which are?

The polite version is that any project described as a “no brainer” is likely to have been proposed by somebody who doesn’t understand the complexities of the project concerned.

It does, it provides a alternative route to Dawlish and prevents to total loss of rail travel in the region should Dawlish ever go down again.

No it doesn’t. The sea wall at Dawlish does much more than enable travel to Plymouth and beyond. Not least, it protects Dawlish itself. A new line through Okehampton does nothing for that. Meanwhile rebuilding the sea wall at Dawlish does solve the Dawlish problem. And that’s what is being done.

Like what? The ex-LSWR route is cheap compared to their options.

Opening to Okehampton provides a fair portion of the benefit for much lower cost. Electric buses, properly integrated to the rail ticketing system and timetable could do the rest in terms of connectivity for about 1% of the cost. That’s cheap. Also much quicker to deliver (months rather than a decade). And no environmental issues.

It was a joke. You have too have watched the TV show to understand.

Ah, sorry. I hadn’t.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

The polite version is that any project described as a “no brainer” is likely to have been proposed by somebody who doesn’t understand the complexities of the project concerned.



No it doesn’t. The sea wall at Dawlish does much more than enable travel to Plymouth and beyond. Not least, it protects Dawlish itself. A new line through Okehampton does nothing for that. Meanwhile rebuilding the sea wall at Dawlish does solve the Dawlish problem. And that’s what is being done.



Opening to Okehampton provides a fair portion of the benefit for much lower cost. Electric buses, properly integrated to the rail ticketing system and timetable could do the rest in terms of connectivity for about 1% of the cost. That’s cheap. Also much quicker to deliver (months rather than a decade). And no environmental issues.




Ah, sorry. I hadn’t.

Ok fair enough. About the buses though, are we not supposed to be advocating rail and pushing for it? I don’t know about you but I hate rural buses and to be honest, I would rather get the train. If there’s not train I’m driving. I will never get a bus over driving or the train and I feel like many people think the same way.

Buses are so unattractive unless they’re inner city.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2021 ==

As for the TV show Rick, it was James May’s Toy Stories. Barnstaple to Biddeford in OO gauge. Very good, although quite dated now.