Psychometric Testing for BR Trained Drivers

[bluecow1]

Can I please ask the following:

How many Main Line Drivers already in the Grade have been put through the Psychometric assessment?
I understand all new trainees need to do the test, Im referring to drivers who were trained before the assessments were introduced and have been on the main line for over 20 years?
Appreciate any responses

 

[notadriver]

I don't know of any but does that mean a potential trainee driver passing the assessments would make a better driver than the experienced one who hasn't ?

 

[332 > 444]

A couple of drivers from my place had some OPC testing when they applied for London Overground, they had to sit their specific VSE and SJE tests. I think Crossrail require qualified drivers to do the same

 

[laws67]

When the new tests were in the process of being introduced 8 drivers at my depot were asked if they would be guinea pigs and take them for statistical purposes only (not recorded on national database) Of the 8, 6 were pre Psychometric testing (before 1988,I think) All had excellent safety records and still do, 7 failed! As many of you will know, the old way was shunting and learning from the 2nd mans chair. I had to sit them but certainly as its been 12 years since I passed I would not want to resit them again.

 

[carriageline]

I don't know of any but does that mean a potential trainee driver passing the assessments would make a better driver than the experienced one who hasn't ?

Nope. Same as drivers who have passed the assessments can be awful drivers!

 

[HLE]

Nope. Same as drivers who have passed the assessments can be awful drivers!

Should go back to the old way of second man then driver. One thing that prevents that of course is the old 'at what cost' argument.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Can I please ask the following:

How many Main Line Drivers already in the Grade have been put through the Psychometric assessment?
I understand all new trainees need to do the test, Im referring to drivers who were trained before the assessments were introduced and have been on the main line for over 20 years?
Appreciate any responses

I'm not sure whether testing such drivers would be relevant or appropriate to be honest. About 85% of the blokes I work with are ex BR and started in either ground staff roles or came on as second men. They earned their wings with the training methods of the time, which seem to have been more strenuous than current methods.

Old hands, please feel free to correct me if I have got things wrong, but 4-5 years as a second man before even being considered for driving? Once put on the driving course (Mp.12?) a significant amount of time given over to learning. Six weeks on the electrical systems of a class 47? My entire training course as an 'off the street driver' only lasted nine weeks!!! One story I was told (from numerous people) was being given a blank sheet of paper and being told to draw the electric or air systems of a class 47 from memory. No notes, no nothing and the full systems please.. Add to that, interviews with senior managers and driving pass outs that lasted two or three days. And not only lasting two or three days, but being BR if they were at a mixed traffic depot it could be a class 1 passenger train one day and a partially fitted freight the next.

No Psychometric assessments needed, but I tell you what, my mess room is an absolute gold mine of knowledge for new people like me. I would rather ask someone for advice knowing they've been through the BR mill and come out of the other end, than ask someone who scored top marks on an assessment but didn't actually know the job. So in my opinion, testing people who have passed out under an arguably more difficult system is pretty much pointless and I dare say, unfair. If anything, It should be the newer drivers (like me) who get returned to the BR way of testing and not the other way round. Personally, I wouldn't have any issue with that at all.

 

[red2005]

Should go back to the old way of second man then driver. One thing that prevents that of course is the old 'at what cost' argument.

not so sure that's a good idea personally! the assessments in place are as much if not more to do with a candidates ability to undertake the classroom element of the course as it is their ability to physically drive a train and there is far more theory now than there was back in the day, and having just done it i can say it is not easy and it is far from a forgone conclusion that every candidate can get through it!!

the second man's seat will be a great help in terms of road learning and watching a qualified driver do his thing but there is just simply 100 times more than that to qualifying as a driver these days from what was drilled into us!......this is by no means a dig at what BR drivers had to go through as personally i'd of preferred the old course and the old way but that is just the way i personally prefer to learn! i can totally see why the companies have brought these tests in given the whole format of a drivers course these days!

absolutely no point in testing drivers who qualified under BR as it doesn't really prove anything! they qualified with what was seen as the standard at the time! if we reassessed everyone now that passed something in an age gone by the country would come to a standstill pretty darn quick!

 

[9K43]

Can I please ask the following:

How many Main Line Drivers already in the Grade have been put through the Psychometric assessment?
I understand all new trainees need to do the test, Im referring to drivers who were trained before the assessments were introduced and have been on the main line for over 20 years?
Appreciate any responses

In 1988 The train Mans Concept was introduced on 3 oct 1988.
This brought the grades traincrew under one canopy,.
The grades were drivers assistant, second men, on the footplate.
BR did this as there were not enough people coming onto the railway to cover the footplate grades. All footplate grades were massed to together for training to be drivers, but not guards and other grades had to go to York for testing, on quick response on a machine which generated noise in a set headphones. to which you had to respond to then marking out how many dots were on a paper with dots on it and you had to respond by outlining the sets of 5 dots on the paper. .
I did this test on 15/021988.
The senior drivers now with companys will have been subject to these tests from the1988 onwards. into the 1990' s.

This is from my memory from the era,

 

[Jamesb1974]

In 1988 The train Mans Concept was introduced on 3 oct 1988.
This brought the grades traincrew under one canopy,.
The grades were drivers assistant, second men, on the footplate.
BR did this as there were not enough people coming onto the railway to cover the footplate grades. All footplate grades were massed to together for training to be drivers, but not guards and other grades had to go to York for testing, on quick response on a machine which generated noise in a set headphones. to which you had to respond to then marking out how many dots were on a paper with dots on it and you had to respond by outlining the sets of 5 dots on the paper. .
I did this test on 15/021988.
The senior drivers now with companys will have been subject to these tests from the1988 onwards. into the 1990' s.

This is from my memory from the era,

This test formula was only phased out in the last 18 months-2 years.

 

[bluecow1]

Thank you for your advice and opinions, my partner was a BR trained driver, was on the railway for 20 years, 10 years ago he had an incident that he brought to the attention of his managers. This resulted in him being put at the depot for 18months to shunt and downloaded regularly. He was told that at the end of his "punishment" he would be back main line driving. As the 18mth approached he was told he had to do the psychometric test, not practice sheet were available online or in hard copy form for him to have a go at and he failed on the ground of not completing the questions in time. Career over with! 20years gone! Union told him nothing more they could do etc... Hence why I wonder how many other drivers have been made to do the assessment whilst already in the grade! My partner had many suicides as many drivers do, he dealt with them and continued to work, no assessment can predict weather you could deal with that or not.
Am I wrong to feel that he was hard done by!

 

[mtbox]

Thank you for your advice and opinions, my partner was a BR trained driver, was on the railway for 20 years, 10 years ago he had an incident that he brought to the attention of his managers. This resulted in him being put at the depot for 18months to shunt and downloaded regularly. He was told that at the end of his "punishment" he would be back main line driving. As the 18mth approached he was told he had to do the psychometric test, not practice sheet were available online or in hard copy form for him to have a go at and he failed on the ground of not completing the questions in time. Career over with! 20years gone! Union told him nothing more they could do etc... Hence why I wonder how many other drivers have been made to do the assessment whilst already in the grade! My partner had many suicides as many drivers do, he dealt with them and continued to work, no assessment can predict weather you could deal with that or not.
Am I wrong to feel that he was hard done by!

No you are not. I think that is a very harsh way to be treated. I don't understand why the union didn't do more to help, there are BR drivers at my depot, some who have had an 'eventfull' career (shall we say) over the years, but I have never heard of anyone who became a driver the old (proper) way having to sit the tests post incident in order to keep their job.

 

[TDK]

Thank you for your advice and opinions, my partner was a BR trained driver, was on the railway for 20 years, 10 years ago he had an incident that he brought to the attention of his managers. This resulted in him being put at the depot for 18months to shunt and downloaded regularly. He was told that at the end of his "punishment" he would be back main line driving. As the 18mth approached he was told he had to do the psychometric test, not practice sheet were available online or in hard copy form for him to have a go at and he failed on the ground of not completing the questions in time. Career over with! 20years gone! Union told him nothing more they could do etc... Hence why I wonder how many other drivers have been made to do the assessment whilst already in the grade! My partner had many suicides as many drivers do, he dealt with them and continued to work, no assessment can predict weather you could deal with that or not.
Am I wrong to feel that he was hard done by!

I think that management wanted him out and would have done anything to get what they wanted.

 

[JAMBO]

I find that astonishing that a trained driver was made to sit these tests again. Like a previous comment I would say that was an easy way for management to rid someone. And there is no way the drivers Union aslef would just let that happen. All sounds very strange that, something doesn't add up.

 

[Minilad]

I agree. This sounds very fishy to me. Plenty of ex BR have had "incidents" but none I know have ever had to take tests to keep a job. Put on action plans and been watched carefully yes but no way would ASLEF have taken that lying down.

 

[TDK]

I agree. This sounds very fishy to me. Plenty of ex BR have had "incidents" but none I know have ever had to take tests to keep a job. Put on action plans and been watched carefully yes but no way would ASLEF have taken that lying down.

He may have not been an ASLEF member

 

[whhistle]

I find that astonishing that a trained driver was made to sit these tests again.

While I agree, I also question:

Why?

A car has to have an MOT to ensure it is still safe to drive on the road. Why should older drivers, who may not meet today's standard, continue to work in a position they may not be qualified to do?

If the argument comes in that they have been doing the job for 20 years with no problem, then surely the standard that is set these days is wrong.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Minilad]

He may have not been an ASLEF member

I don't think it would matter if he was or not. That is something that would set a precedent and for that alone they would step in to nip it in the bud. Well I think my local ASLEF would anyway

 

[Legzr1]

While I agree, I also question:

Why?

A car has to have an MOT to ensure it is still safe to drive on the road. Why should older drivers, who may not meet today's standard, continue to work in a position they may not be qualified to do?

If the argument comes in that they have been doing the job for 20 years with no problem, then surely the standard that is set these days is wrong.

You can't have it both ways.

I take it you're aware of non-obtrusive monitoring, regular downloads, ride-outs and bi-annual rules and regulations exams?

If you are, you shouldn't be making silly points.

If you aren't, now you are.

 

[Jamesb1974]

I take it you're aware of non-obtrusive monitoring, regular downloads, ride-outs and bi-annual rules and regulations exams?

If you are, you shouldn't be making silly points.

If you aren't, now you are.

Excellent. +1

 

[notadriver]

While I agree, I also question:

Why?

A car has to have an MOT to ensure it is still safe to drive on the road. Why should older drivers, who may not meet today's standard, continue to work in a position they may not be qualified to do?

If the argument comes in that they have been doing the job for 20 years with no problem, then surely the standard that is set these days is wrong.

You can't have it both ways.

I don't understand what today's standard of psychometric testing has to do with a standard of driving. You can't surely be suggesting that someone with no railway experience who's passed the psychometric tests will make a better driver than a driver with many years experience and a proven safety of the line record.

 

[cossie4i]

I changed from a TOC to a FOC after being in the driving grade since 1987 and didn't have to do any tests.

 

[oxoneil]

So do experienced drivers believe that the current way of pre interview testing gives a good indication of who would make a good driver?
This isn't me being big headed or anything but I actually found the testing phase really easy and, in a sad kind of way, quite enjoyable yet I have no idea how well I actually scored and am being told that the determining factor for being offered a job is how well I performed at interview.

Someone could possibly have some blinding scores on the tests but suffer from a bit of nerves at interview and yet be passed over by someone who can talk the talk a bit better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't understand what today's standard of psychometric testing has to do with a standard of driving. You can't surely be suggesting that someone with no railway experience who's passed the psychometric tests will make a better driver than a driver with many years experience and a proven safety of the line record.

What sort of job would you classify as "railway experience"?

 

[455driver]

The tests are nothing to do with driving trains, they are to test your concentration and ability to assimilate a lot of information quickly and accurately, they are therefore not relevant to drivers who are already qualified.

TPE make everyone sit the tests whether qualified (simplified tests) or not (full set).

 

[TDK]

The tests are nothing to do with driving trains, they are to test your concentration and ability to assimilate a lot of information quickly and accurately, they are therefore not relevant to drivers who are already qualified.

TPE make everyone sit the tests whether qualified (simplified tests) or not (full set).

DRS do similar

 

[red2005]

This is one of the things that really irks me about this subject!.....people make daft statements/claims regarding testing without knowing what they are all about!

As already stated above the assessments have absolutely jack to do with driving trains!....if anything they are more to do with the candidates ability to undertake the theoretical elements of the training course!

why on earth would qualified drivers have to do them again just because the assessments may have changed etc?? drivers are constantly monitored through various means to ensure they have the correct competency going forward!......do you see pilots,firefighters,police officers or ship captains re assessed every few years with psychometric testing?? no you don't....simply because once they are qualified they are constantly monitored and practically assessed by carrying out their duties professionally!.......they have already proven they have the ability to carry out the job through initial testing or time served!

 

[Jamesb1974]

You can't surely be suggesting that someone with no railway experience who's passed the psychometric tests will make a better driver than a driver with many years experience and a proven safety of the line record.

But that's what the companies want. Fresh blood, brand spanking new from the classroom and a head full of rules who drive to the letter. Unsoiled by years of shaving a bit of here and there.

Its like any job. When you're new you work to the letter. When you've been doing it 20 years, less so. I'm not suggesting people take dangerous short cuts, I'm just saying the people get familiar with the job and how its done. There are pros and cons for both positions.

 

[HLE]

not so sure that's a good idea personally! the assessments in place are as much if not more to do with a candidates ability to undertake the classroom element of the course as it is their ability to physically drive a train and there is far more theory now than there was back in the day, and having just done it i can say it is not easy and it is far from a forgone conclusion that every candidate can get through it!!

the second man's seat will be a great help in terms of road learning and watching a qualified driver do his thing but there is just simply 100 times more than that to qualifying as a driver these days from what was drilled into us!......this is by no means a dig at what BR drivers had to go through as personally i'd of preferred the old course and the old way but that is just the way i personally prefer to learn! i can totally see why the companies have brought these tests in given the whole format of a drivers course these days!

absolutely no point in testing drivers who qualified under BR as it doesn't really prove anything! they qualified with what was seen as the standard at the time! if we reassessed everyone now that passed something in an age gone by the country would come to a standstill pretty darn quick!

I see your point.

However what about candidates who fail the assessments who have been educated to A level/degree/equivalent standard? Surely that's proof they can cope with the classroom element?

 

[387star]

So do experienced drivers believe that the current way of pre interview testing gives a good indication of who would make a good driver?
This isn't me being big headed or anything but I actually found the testing phase really easy and, in a sad kind of way, quite enjoyable yet I have no idea how well I actually scored and am being told that the determining factor for being offered a job is how well I performed at interview.

Someone could possibly have some blinding scores on the tests but suffer from a bit of nerves at interview and yet be passed over by someone who can talk the talk a bit better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What sort of job would you classify as "railway experience"?

Like you i didnt find the assessment process at all tricky aside from the MMI but I wouldnt want the stress of retaking it and Im sure you dont

I know people who failed the online tests and I found them very straight forward hopefully all this means I at the least have the right qualities... I agree little to do with experience and ability gained from driving trains though and knowing the job

 

[red2005]

I see your point.

However what about candidates who fail the assessments who have been educated to A level/degree/equivalent standard? Surely that's proof they can cope with the classroom element?

yes and no really! i mean the majority of us went to school for a minimum of 11 years or so, so in one way you could say most are used to a classroom environment!.........but it isn't just about being able to cope with sitting in front of a blackboard or smart screen.......it's about being able to cope with what is written on them and how the training format is put across! the fact they failed the minimum standard probably says they will struggle with elements of the course or the job itself! that's why there are many different parts to the assessments....to test all areas.

any psychometric test related to a job is simply there to see if candidates reach a minimum standard and that is all!...if they can't meet the minimum standard what happens when the really difficult or technical stuff starts?...drivers from days of your have proved their competence with the system that was available at the time.....call them lucky bleeders......call them people who just benefited from a certain era where testing wasn't a necessity......you could even call them mad for doing a job back then given how it wasn't the nicey nice cushy place to work it is now but either way they are more than competent as proven for many years.

times have changed, technology has changed,safety has changed, standards have changed and the industry as a whole has changed but these ex BR guys have kept up with that with ongoing assessments and training courses! and when you go from an era when you could nip for a pint whilst waiting at a signal to one where a generic risk assessment has to be carried out to go the loo!..........that is proof enough in my eyes they can cope!

HOWEVER

with all those changes recruitment had to change with it!.......due to the fact the number of applicants over the years had shot up there had to be ways of narrowing the field down! also given how much it costs to train a driver and the responsibility they have it's important they get it right!......and the fact that as you say A level educated individuals fail the minimum standard it just proves that not everyone can do it and it isn't for everyone!